Ben S; Pistol question.

Mayfield

Gold Supporter
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
2,240
Location
Avondale, Arizona
Aircraft
Aero SP AT-4 (Gobosh 700X), TAG Titanium Explorer
Ben,

I'm looking for a new carry piece. I'm having trouble understanding the operating system of some of the weapons I'm looking at.

Specifically, I don't fully understand the DAO, DA/SA, SA characteristics of some pistols.

I know that my 1911A1 is SA. My Ruger P90, Walther P38 and Llama Omni are DA/SA. I think I prefer the option of either pulling the hammer back for a nice let off in SA mode or pulling through for a DA if I'm rushed.

All my DA/SA weapons have an external hammer. Are there striker fired (no external hammer) DA/SA pistols? If so; how do they work? What are some good examples?

I have trouble understanding how a hammerless pistol could work DA/SA. When I rack the slide; what happens?

Do you have any recommendations?

Thanks Ben,

Jim Mayfield
 
Last edited:
Jim, this is not an uncommon question...

Jim, this is not an uncommon question...

With today's plethora of choices in action types it can be quite confusing, I'll try to shed some light on it for you. As you already are familiar with the 1911 and Ruger it won't be as hard as understanding CLT vs HTL!
In handguns there are two basic types of actions, Single action and Double action. This applies to revolvers AND semi auto's a cheap and easy way to tell when looking at the gun is if you can fit your finger in the space BEHIND the trigger it is a double action (rule of thumb) if not think Single action. The difference being that a single action when the trigger is pulled only performs a "single" action ie the hammer falls (think old west cowboy revolver) If it isn't already cocked the hammer doesn't move. Now in a Double action (think Smith and Wesson) if you cock the hammer the trigger moves backwards in the trigger guard and now is in the single action mode. If you don't cock it first but pull on the trigger all the way it will now pull the hammer back for you and THEN release it (two actions) or double action. This is lengthy but you'll see why shortly. So with our understanding of the difference between single and double action where would you classify a small revolver that has NO EXPOSED hammer? (they do have a hammer its just internal) The name the industry came up with is DAO or Double Action Only which of course is an oxymoron but it suits the fact that you can't cock it manually. NOW on the semi auto pistols side you have the same choices, the 1911 is a Single action auto, if you don't first cock the hammer the trigger does nothing, the hitch here is that the hammer is usually cocked for you when you load the chamber by racking the slide to the rear, so some people forget that they are cocking the gun. Along the way many people came up with double action triggers for pistols but the books and most semi knowledgeable gun guys will point to the Walther series of pistols as the first commercially successful "Double action pistol" which it was claimed would be better for cops holding a suspect at bay because the first pull of the trigger is very long and heavy, but after the round cycles the slide it cocks the exposed hammer FOR you thereby giving you a light easy trigger pull for each successive shot (like your Ruger) this was great marketing but really more a discovery/evolution than design I mean really what else was it gonna do? the first three in double? the gun doesn't work that way, but much hype was placed on Walthers feet for this design, but there is one HUGE drawback that people seemed to be forgetting, the transition from LOOOng heavy pull for the first shot to light and easy was damn hard to master under stress. With the first shot mostly being thrown into the ground while waiting for the gun to cock the hammer (interesting side not here, MOST double action autos have a decocker to let the hammer go from cocked single to uncocked double action mode. The CZ-75 series is a hybrid with a safety that allows the gun to be carried in either single cocked and locked mode OR double action mode at the flick of a switch)...Jim...wake up Jim...stay with me here, OK so with the double action being safe but hard to control and the single very easy to shoot with but not as safe for pointing at people you might not want to shoot, the manufacturers began to look for a solution to both problems, enter the Striker fired pistol and again most people point at the Glock and go OOOhhhh but they weren't the first (in anything). The HK VPZ-70 was the first practical Striker fired gun where in the trigger actually pulls back the firing pin to a set distance and then releases it to strike the primer (how many actions was that?) Problem was the HK was as usual a poorly designed P.O.S that was a cross between a machine pistol and a spatula. the trigger pull was about 25 pounds (no s#*t!) and the gun was un-useable. But the idea was born, Next came the Rogak or Steyer (I won't argue which was first) where they tried to improve on the idea by pre staging the striker (firing pin) when you racked the slide (sorta like cocking the gun but no hammer) Problem with this system is if you have a round go "click" when it should have gone "BANG" you now have to cycle the slide again ejecting your dud round in the process to get a fresh one in the chamber and pre-stage the striker again (today's training exemplifies this). This is how ALMOST all Gocks, XD's M&P's and their ilk work. The exception to the rule is the Taurus line of Striker fired guns who have "Repeat strike capability" or in other words you can pull the trigger twice. The main benefit to Striker fired guns is that the trigger pull is always the same and not too bad on some. As for the Taurus a nice side benefit is during dry fire practice you get the same pull without having to rack the slide in between.
Jim, I realize this was WAY longer than anyone wanted to read and after re-reading it it will probably lose some without a gun in front of you to look at. I am happy to answer any questions you might have and will TRY to be less confusing.
Hope this helps
Ben S (stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last week!)
 
Oh and Heron...

Oh and Heron...

I know you didn't make it, but the animation you posted isn't technically accurate. The Glocks unlock while the bullet is still in the barrel or under pressure which means they are right on the edge of dangerous at every firing. Doubt me Glock owners?, look at your fired brass...on the primer you will see a square from the striker and a swipe mark where it slid off the tip of the striker during the ejection phase! Some Machine guns use a technique called "advanced ignition" to cut down on recoil, THIS AIN'T THAT! (That is the real reason you can't use cast bullets in your polygonal rifling, if you increase the pressure just a tiny bit KABOOM!) I like some Glocks, but you have to respect it's flaws there are many...
Ben S
 
With today's plethora of choices in action types it can be quite confusing. I'll try to shed some light on it for you.
As you already are familiar with the 1911 and Ruger it won't be as hard as understanding CLT vs HTL!
In handguns there are two basic types of actions, Single action and Double action. This applies to revolvers AND semi auto's a cheap and easy way to tell when looking at the gun is if you can fit your finger in the space BEHIND the trigger it is a double action (rule of thumb) if not think Single action.
The difference being that a single action when the trigger is pulled only performs a "single" action ie the hammer falls (think old west cowboy revolver)
If it isn't already cocked the hammer doesn't move.
Now in a Double action (think Smith and Wesson) if you cock the hammer the trigger moves backwards in the trigger guard and now is in the single action mode.
If you don't cock it first but pull on the trigger all the way it will now pull the hammer back for you and THEN release it (two actions) or double action.
This is lengthy but you'll see why shortly.
So with our understanding of the difference between single and double action where would you classify a small revolver that has NO EXPOSED hammer? (they do have a hammer its just internal)
The name the industry came up with is DAO or Double Action Only which of course is an oxymoron but it suits the fact that you can't cock it manually.
NOW on the semi auto pistols side you have the same choices:
the 1911 is a Single action auto, if you don't first cock the hammer the trigger does nothing, the hitch here is that the hammer is usually cocked for you when you load the chamber by racking the slide to the rear, so some people forget that they are cocking the gun.
Along the way many people came up with double action triggers for pistols but the books and most semi knowledgeable gun guys will point to the Walther series of pistols as the first commercially successful "Double action pistol".
Which it was claimed would be better for cops holding a suspect at bay because the first pull of the trigger is very long and heavy, but after the round cycles the slide it cocks the exposed hammer FOR you thereby giving you a light easy trigger pull for each successive shot (like your Ruger).
This was great marketing but really more a discovery/evolution than design I mean really what else was it gonna do?
The first three in double?
The gun doesn't work that way, but much hype was placed on Walthers feet for this design, but there is one HUGE drawback that people seemed to be forgetting, the transition from LOOOng heavy pull for the first shot to light and easy was damn hard to master under stress.
With the first shot mostly being thrown into the ground while waiting for the gun to cock the hammer (interesting side note here, MOST double action autos have a decocker to let the hammer go from cocked single to uncocked double action mode). The CZ-75 series is a hybrid with a safety that allows the gun to be carried in either single cocked and locked mode OR double action mode at the flick of a switch)...
Jim...wake up Jim...stay with me here,
OK so with the double action being safe but hard to control and the single very easy to shoot with but not as safe for pointing at people you might not want to shoot, the manufacturers began to look for a solution to both problems, enter the Striker fired pistol and again most people point at the Glock and go OOOhhhh but they weren't the first (in anything).
The HK VPZ-70 was the first practical Striker fired gun where in the trigger actually pulls back the firing pin to a set distance and then releases it to strike the primer (how many actions was that?)
Problem was the HK was as usual a poorly designed P.O.S that was a cross between a machine pistol and a spatula.
the trigger pull was about 25 pounds (no s#*t!) and the gun was un-useable.
But the idea was born,
Next came the Rogak or Steyer (I won't argue which was first) where they tried to improve on the idea by pre staging the striker (firing pin) when you racked the slide (sorta like cocking the gun but no hammer)
Problem with this system is if you have a round go "click" when it should have gone "BANG" you now have to cycle the slide again ejecting your dud round in the process to get a fresh one in the chamber and pre-stage the striker again (today's training exemplifies this).
This is how ALMOST all Gocks, XD's M&P's and their ilk work. The exception to the rule is the Taurus line of Striker fired guns who have "Repeat strike capability" or in other words you can pull the trigger twice.
The main benefit to Striker fired guns is that the trigger pull is always the same and not too bad on some.
As for the Taurus a nice side benefit is during dry fire practice you get the same pull without having to rack the slide in between.
Jim, I realize this was WAY longer than anyone wanted to read and after re-reading it it will probably lose some without a gun in front of you to look at.
I am happy to answer any questions you might have and will TRY to be less confusing.
Hope this helps
Ben S (stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last week!)
 
Yeah...

Yeah...

Taurus semi pistols are a great choice for the money, but they're revolvers have been suckin' hind tit lately quality wise. Lots of send backs on new guns.
Ben S
 
Ben,

Thanks. That does help a lot.

I prefer a SA with a relatively clean break at about 4 pounds for my carry weapon. I can live with a DA pull up to about 11 pounds (or so) if subsequent rounds are fired with a pull light enough to allow good placement.

I've been looking seriously at the Ruger P95, CZ 2075 (polymer), and S&W 9ve. I would like to stay with 9X19 because ammo is cheap enough to practice with.

Anything good, bad, or indifferent about these three.

You notice the price point. This is the amount I'm comfortable with spending right now so any advice on other pistols near this point would be appreciated.

I'm certainly open to suggestions Ben and I appreciate your input.

Jim
 
I have a CZ-75B and it's a fine pistol. It'll eat anything I feed it and fits my hand just right. My Springfield 1911 is just a tad bit chunky for my grip. I haven't shot a Springfield XD yet but was very surprised at how well the XD45 fit my hand.

I need to pull them out and do some shootin'. I'm rusty as hell.
 
Jim...

Jim...

These are all decent choices in large frame 9mm, but I would stay clear of the Smith sw9ve or Sigma ever since the lawsuit with Glock the trigger is probably the worst on the market. Now there is a new version out called the SD for self defense with a night site and vastly improved trigger pull that I would recommend, its not a bad gun. Also the Taurus 24/7 is a great full size gun and its "ribbed for her pleasure";) The grip is unique, some like it some don't I think its great. If you can spare about an extra hundread the S&W M&P 9 is one of my favorites for a polymer gun. the only thing I'll say about the CZ is that in Double action mode the reach to the trigger is WAY forward for bigger hands only!
Also the old style Springfield XD is a great gun. The Ruger SR9 is a way more useable gun than the 95 series guns for just a little bit more.
Too bad you don't have AZ Photo ID:sorry: I can't sell you any handguns.
Ben S
 
Thanks Ben. I appreciate the advice.

Yuma is a pretty good drive from Avondale. I'll probably go to "Crossroads" April 4 and handle some different pistols.

Thanks again,

Jim
 
Jim...

Jim...

I didn't notice you was a fellow AZ man! Yuma's not THAT far...
Tim, if I was to have to pick one single semi for personal protection around the world traveling I'd pick the 19, just cause anywhere in the world you can find parts and it won't nessacarily peg you as a US citizen. I don't feel safe with their 40 cals and theyre 45 frame is just ridiculously enormous.
I am a "hater", a Hi-Point hater!
Ben S
 
Jim,

There is another gun that isn't so well known but it is worthy of your consideration. Para-Ordanance is well known for their 1911 style 45s. But they have come out with a unique action they call the LDA which stands for "Light Double Action". This gives you the safety factor of a double action only pistol where you have a longer trigger pull so you are less likely to set off a round when you don't mean to, but instead of a big old heavy trigger pull that makes it hard to shoot accurately, you have a very light trigger pull. You really have to try one to believe it. It is the sweetest trigger pull I have ever had on a pistol. And they make a variety of smaller carry versions, so you can get one anywhere from a full size service weapon to a almost pocket pistol size. Mine is a 45 cal. but I suspect they also make them in the lighter calibers. It is sure worth looking into as I consider it the ultimate carry weapon. Although it is an all steel model so it isn't as light as some of the composite models out there. Anyway check it out and see what you think, the action and trigger pull is hard to beat.
 
I have a Springfield XD 40 sub compact, Glock 22 and 23. Love all three. I carry my Springfield concealed more often because of the added grip safety. the Springfield is a little more top heavy than Glock so I find it easier to get back on target during rapid fire. All three have under rails for light mounting. Break down on the flocks are a joke. Couldnt be any more simple. Springfield is a but more cumbersome with the rotating lever midway up. But it's a solid piece. Glock plus is they all use the same mag if you use similar caliber. So 22 23 27, all same. Hate the 27. If you want a compact get a Springfield. Better fit and comes with an extra extended mag for a full carry.
 
My son-in-law is looking at the Taurus 24/7 Pro. All the reviews I've read on them have been pretty favorable. If I was purchasing another carry weapon I'd be looking at a Kahr PM9. The price is a little more than some of the others but everyone who has one loves theirs. But I have to keep my priorities in order. I have gyro parts to purchase.
 
I love my Ruger P89 and my Taurus .357 Both are a little bulky for concealed carry. :D

Tim, Check out the Ruger LC9 and Taurus 709 slim.
 
I dated a police detective down in Miami, she was complaining she could not pass the shooting tests.
One night, at a restaurant, she went to the ladies room (she is a lady in all senses) and I took her purse to accomodate in a chair . . .very heavy . . .
I asked her what she was carrying: a 357 short barrel S&W . . .no wonder . . .I told her to take the test with the regular police 38 . . .she did good!
Heron (gunless in Brasil)
 
My Walther ppk 380 is easy to cary and conceal.A bit on the heavy side but all and all a good piece.
 
Bud
That is one of the most coveted, the PPK.
Maybe Ben can lecture us on it . . . (please?)
Heron
 
Top