Very confused..

raton

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Joined
Feb 5, 2009
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387
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perth/coogee
Seriously looking for the right gyro and what should be looking for by way of specification/safety /workmanship but the more I read one gets more confused, apparently the RAF is a widow maker but modified many would swear by them, there are so many gyros available but very little technical information as to the real/right proper set up. Liked the ELA a Spanish made gyro and reading on a South African site they modified the ELA to make it better (?) The MT-03 a German made gyro again, someone in the UK modified to make it safer. Talking to someone owning an Italian Magni and again modified for this and that reason. Question is, being an experimental crafts are they pushing their luck or effectively modifying a proven design (what is a proven design) would make it safer , better and so on…
Raton
 
Mate, it takes a while to sort the wheat from the chaff.
Sum know, and sum only think they know.
 
It's gonna take some time.

It's gonna take some time.

Raton,

If you are looking for a proven aircraft with lots of techincal data to back up it's claims, you should be looking at certified aircraft, not experimental aircraft. Experimental aircraft by their very nature change faster and more often and do not offer the certainty you seem to be looking for. I will admit there are many different oppinions on what is the best Gyroplane to own and the differences and debates can make the whole issue very confusing to a new person. I really believe the best answer is to simply take your time to learn about the different models, get rides is any you are seriously considering buying and give yourself some time to become educated on the subject. You will eventually decide which camp has the arguements that make the most sense to you and you can choose who you will listen to and who you will take with a grain of salt.

But this is not the kind of thing that someone can just tell you. YOu are going to have to invest some time and decide for your self, what makes sense to you. THe more time you take and the more you understand, the better quality decisions you will make. That said, you also need to decide what your goals are and what type of flying you want to do. Different makes and models will have different strong point and will fit different budgets. I know it may seem a little dauntiing when you first get started but truthfully, this is a very exciting time in the Gyro world and there are more good options available right now then there has ever been. So enjoy the journey, take your time and ask lots of questions. You'll like it.

Gyro Doug
 
Spot on Doug. The time spent on this Forum is valuable time sifting through the enormous amount of information that is shared here daily.

It is a slow process and one does have to put some effort in to be able to sort out the good information submitted by the knowledgeable.

It is possible to simply buy a certified gyro, get some lessons from an instructor and go and fly, but there is so much to know that time here is never wasted.

Yes it will seem confusing at first but slowly as you learn more and more it does start to make sense and you will understand why certain modifications improve performance and stability.
 
Hello,

the listing of RAF on the one side and ELA, MT, Magni on the other hand is comparing apples with pears. The latter group have aquired approval in several countries by their local FAA's, even if usually in the sports-plane division.
The RAF never got that. It seems to be general consensus, that the stock RAF is intrinsically unsafe and should never be flown without modifications.

This is not true for the other types. I do not know, whether the modifications really improve those machines, but I have my doubts.

Kai.
 
The formulae for a good gyro are there, the solutions used differ a lot.
Some pretty gyros are just that, good workmanship and bad formula.
State your needs, fill the blanks and find someone with lots of experience in manufacturing and you will have a good product.
Other than that is just adapting what is out there in stock form to your needs.
Heron
 
Thank all for your answers, but considering all options I think will go for a certified craft either the Italian , German or the Spanish one, must find out of the 3 crafts which craft would be more receptive to take a Subaru EJ25

Raton
 
Perfect Example!!!

Perfect Example!!!

Thank all for your answers, but considering all options I think will go for a certified craft either the Italian , German or the Spanish one, must find out of the 3 crafts which craft would be more receptive to take a Subaru EJ25

Raton

Raton,

In this statement you show exactly why all the confusion with experimental gyros exist. One the one hand you say you want proven, certified aircraft, but then you talk about putting a different engine on it. That moves it into the experimental class and takes away all the proven, certification aspects you just said you wanted. Taking a proven design, and making design changes (like a different engine) when you are not an experienced designer is exactly what has caused most of the problems in our sport. People don't seem to understand that when you make changes (even small seemingly insignificant changes) you are changing the design of the aircraft and you no longer have what you started out with. In some cases that may only slightly change the flying characteristics, but many, many times it has altered the aircraft to make it a very different flying machine. It is very easy to change the stability of an aircraft and make it less safe and less stable without having any idea you have done it. Extra weight anywhere (except for the exact center of mass) will change the thrust line relationship to the COG which effects the way a machine flies.

You either have to accept a certified machine exactly how it was certified (or even a proven experimental model) and live with it, or you can go the experimental route. But if you go experimental be careful that you don't become a designer without the skills to make safe design changes and create an unsafe flying machine that could end your flying career. People taking the basic Bensen machine and putting on bigger and heavier engines (exactly what you are wanting to do) without knowing what they were doing, are responsible for most of the bad reputation Gyros have gotten for being unsafe aircraft. Something to think about, eh?

Gyro Doug
 
Raton,

In this statement you show exactly why all the confusion with experimental gyros exist. One the one hand you say you want proven, certified aircraft, but then you talk about putting a different engine on it. That moves it into the experimental class and takes away all the proven, certification aspects you just said you wanted. Taking a proven design, and making design changes (like a different engine) when you are not an experienced designer is exactly what has caused most of the problems in our sport. People don't seem to understand that when you make changes (even small seemingly insignificant changes) you are changing the design of the aircraft and you no longer have what you started out with. In some cases that may only slightly change the flying characteristics, but many, many times it has altered the aircraft to make it a very different flying machine. It is very easy to change the stability of an aircraft and make it less safe and less stable without having any idea you have done it. Extra weight anywhere (except for the exact center of mass) will change the thrust line relationship to the COG which effects the way a machine flies.

You either have to accept a certified machine exactly how it was certified (or even a proven experimental model) and live with it, or you can go the experimental route. But if you go experimental be careful that you don't become a designer without the skills to make safe design changes and create an unsafe flying machine that could end your flying career. People taking the basic Bensen machine and putting on bigger and heavier engines (exactly what you are wanting to do) without knowing what they were doing, are responsible for most of the bad reputation Gyros have gotten for being unsafe aircraft. Something to think about, eh?

Gyro Doug

I understand exactly what you say therefore will be speaking to those manufacturers and see the possibility in having the craft delivered without engine but ready to take a Subaru engine, whilst Rotax engines might be a good thing to have,I would prefer the reliability of the Subaru engines.

Raton
 
I don't know if many pilots make modifications on any european made gyro
for making them more safe. I know a guy in Sweden he converted his MT03 to MT03 Sport.
Heres the link with photos.

http://www.flysports.se/?pID=183

Giorgos
 
Raton, with all due respect, replacing a Rotax 912 or 914 aircraft engine with any converted auto engine is a dramatic step down in reliability. There's little other than initial purchase price to recommend such a change.

Replacing a 912 with an EJ25 will also add about 150 pounds / 70 kg and substantially alter center of gravity.
 
Raton, with all due respect, replacing a Rotax 912 or 914 aircraft engine with any converted auto engine is a dramatic step down in reliability. There's little other than initial purchase price to recommend such a change.

Replacing a 912 with an EJ25 will also add about 150 pounds / 70 kg and substantially alter center of gravity.


Paul,

Couldn't have said it better!
 
Raton, with all due respect, replacing a Rotax 912 or 914 aircraft engine with any converted auto engine is a dramatic step down in reliability. There's little other than initial purchase price to recommend such a change.

Replacing a 912 with an EJ25 will also add about 150 pounds / 70 kg and substantially alter center of gravity.



Not wanting to open a can of worms, nothing wrong with Rotax perhaps initial cost and maintenance but strongly disagree a Subaru engine would be a step down in reliability. Perhaps the center of gravity could be changed to take a heavier engine and the weight could be offset with more HP. ELA (Spain) fitted initially their crafts with Subaru engines, but Subaru refused to sell engines less emissions ECU and other paraphernalia so they went Rotax..

raton
 
You need to know more!!!

You need to know more!!!

Raton,

You obviously really like the Subaru enginie and there is nothing wrong with that. Most of my Gyro time has been flown in a Sparow Hawk Gyro with a Subaru engine and I have never experienced an engine problem. I like the Subaru engine, however, it is an undisputable fact that aircraft flying with auto conversions (yes even the very popular Subaru engine) have a much poorer record for reliability than the Rotax 912 or 914 engines. The Subaru engine is much heavier and is less reliable, those are accepted facts by the vast majority of people who have been around both enough to know.

That doesn't mean the Subaru can't be a good engine choice, but you do need to be realistic when you look at the advantages and disadvantages. You also need to understand that the major weight difference will have a Major effect on the thrust line compared to the C of G on the machine. And that is not s small or minor matter. That has a huge influence on how stable (or safe to fly) the Gyroplane will be. It will take someone who truly understands Gyro design some major time and effort to re-design the Gyro to use the different engine, safely. A Certified Gyro Manufacturer is not going to do a redesign of their Gyro just for you, so you can buy a partial kit and then put on what they believe is an inferior engine. It isn't going to happen.

This whole concept goes straight back to the same attitude hundreds of others have had and has led to the deaths of many who just did not understand what they were doing, and caused Gyros to have a reputation as being a death trap.

I strongly suggest you make a committment to not do anything for the next 6 months but read and study and learn everything you can about Gyroplanes. Once you understand the history and the current Phillosophy of Rotor Dynamics and Stability, you will be in a much better position to make the kind of decisions you are headed for now. I promise you that you will make better decisions once you have a deeper understanding of the issues.

Best of luck,

Gyro Doug
 
...I know a guy in Sweden he converted his MT03 to MT03 Sport.
Heres the link with photos.

http://www.flysports.se/?pID=183

Giorgos,

to cut the mast at the most loaded and stressed part and weld it together again, manually seems to be, ....well..., not a good idea.

It is not a coincidence that this part is especially re-enforced by welding 2 tubes together.

Kai.
 
GyroDoug is spot on!
What do you want or need RAton?
Fiddle around with machinery or go places with a reliable gyro?
If you buy a good machine there is not need for mods, you will fly it for some time and learn what it is, then you will be informed to where you should go.
Remember: The Domino Effect is very present in gyros, you change something and will have another animal in your hands . . .sometimes it bites!
There is no comparison between Subarus and Rotaxes, each has its uses and the machine should be designed around the power plant (wich is item 1= payload and range) then it will impact airframe (item 2) that will ask for disc size and solidity (item 3) . . .hey . . . your pyramid is growing! :)
You want to fly fast, smaller disc, you wanna float more, go the other way.
Or just buy one ready to fly and explore the envelope, very carefull should I add . . .
Heron
 
GyroDoug is spot on!
What do you want or need RAton?
Fiddle around with machinery or go places with a reliable gyro?
If you buy a good machine there is not need for mods, you will fly it for some time and learn what it is, then you will be informed to where you should go.
Remember: The Domino Effect is very present in gyros, you change something and will have another animal in your hands . . .sometimes it bites!
There is no comparison between Subarus and Rotaxes, each has its uses and the machine should be designed around the power plant (wich is item 1= payload and range) then it will impact airframe (item 2) that will ask for disc size and solidity (item 3) . . .hey . . . your pyramid is growing! :)
You want to fly fast, smaller disc, you wanna float more, go the other way.
Or just buy one ready to fly and explore the envelope, very carefull should I add . . .
Heron


Correct me if I’m wrong, let’s say I have a factory build gyro with a Rotax engine and someday I take some fat cow (120Kg) for a joy ride , would that affect ‘the domino effect’ in a gyro..? but hey, I understand what you all saying, and not prepared to fiddle with something not sure about ,just have to find factory finished gyro able to take a Subaru engine, (ELA is somehow prepared to do it for a price) if not , looks like I have to go through a step and painful learning curve. Thanks again guys..!

Raton
 
ehm, I hope the person you are referring to never reads this Forum :D.

The factory built Gyros all have a proper Weights and Balance Sheet with max-min weights involved. I don't know by heart, but 120kg may be ok if you are light enough.

Kai.
 
Hmmm...265 pounds. Most of my cows weigh many times that amount. I'm not sure I want any of them flying in a gyro. That much "cow exhaust" at altitude...very scary for ground-dwellers.

Now, if I mistook the translation in my Oz-to-American English dictionary, and you meant a young lady of 265 pounds....consider adjusting the rudder pedals outward. She's clearly very VERY tall. :D

*JC*
 
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