Improvements in Training

If the thread is about gyroplane flying techniques, then it is better to stick to that to avoid any confusion or misconceptions. Nothing personal.

Regarding pilots attempting crow hops and dying because of getting behind the power curve, I'll again recommend the detailed notes written by Leigh. If one begins to do the crow hops two feet above the ground, it is a safe maneuver, and there is no danger of not being able to land safely. If you go up twenty feet and then get behind the curve, it is another story.
 
I brought up and made a thread a few months ago about how I think it is unwise for a new pilot to fly a new machine. Way too risky
 
If the thread is about gyroplane flying techniques, then it is better to stick to that to avoid any confusion or misconceptions. Nothing personal.

Regarding pilots attempting crow hops and dying because of getting behind the power curve, I'll again recommend the detailed notes written by Leigh. If one begins to do the crow hops two feet above the ground, it is a safe maneuver, and there is no danger of not being able to land safely. If you go up twenty feet and then get behind the curve, it is another story.

Yeah, that's the definition of a crowhop (1 to 3 foot off the ground) in any category. It doesn't always work out that way for a guy who just got signed off. That is exactly why they are considered somewhat fishy for solo students. May be human factors in gyroplanes are different somehow.
 
That is exactly why they are considered somewhat fishy for solo students. May be human factors in gyroplanes are different somehow.

That is exactly why they need training from a qualified CFI in this maneuver before going at it solo.
 
That is exactly why they need training from a qualified CFI in this maneuver before going at it solo.

How's that been working out in the US so far for us? Correct me if I am wrong but isn't that the whole point of this thread?
May be its not just qualified instructor but what is actually taught and what we call silent instruction given that remains between student and instructor ... like go do crowhops on your very first flight alone and try and remain between 1 and 3 feet, no higher. Add to the fact that pretty much by definition, the student is going to solo in their own gyroplane with 200+ pounds less load and their own gyroplane in some cases is a single seat and after changing all these variables you are asking the poor student to go do an energy management maneuver right from the get go ... I can see 2 possible bad outcomes with good possibility. One he will overshoot and get 20 to 40 feet high and get in trouble. Two if the gyroplane with a high CG with skinny stance that encourages duck walk like a Dominator or a derivative etc. he has a good chance of flipping it over doing this before he has developed an iota of confidence and feel of controls with all those variables different in solo.
just my $0.02.
Mind you I am not saying that students with instructors should not do crow hops. I think almost in all categories you will find that to be true to certain extent.
 
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Fara,

If you are a CFI that would solo a student with the silent instructions as mentioned by you, then that is a sad day for the student. Is it not obvious that you would train the student to some level of proficiency before allowing them to do this maneuver? The subject of transitioning to a single seat machine is where the problem lies, and that is what a lot of threads have focused on recently.

The main problem is because of the inexperienced pilots that get impatient and try and do things on their own. I am sure there are pilots who try and fly trikes without instruction, but that is not my intent to bring up on this forum, as it deals with rotary wings.

What seems to be is the constant comparison that you make with trikes vs. gyroplanes, and it gets tiring after a while. It is evident that the difference in the dynamics of rotary wings is eluding you. The wings of a stationary trike will not pack the same energy as the turning rotors of a stationary gyroplane.
 
I am confused!

I am confused!

I am not able to make a connection between crow hops and getting behind the power curve.

I am not able to make a connection between flying a weight shift control fixed wing aircraft and flying a gyroplane.

I have read many NTSB reports that describe a fixed wing pilot trying to fly a gyroplane like a fixed wing.

I can tell they are in trouble when they ask what indicated air speed to rotate or use the rudder to turn.

I was not taught to do crow hops by any of my instructors.

I feel it took me quite a while to learn to take off properly because of this.

I tended to bounce the gyroplane off the tail wheel and rush the take off.

I suspect that bouncing the gyroplane off the tail wheel for takeoff is an advanced maneuver.

I have less than 1,300 hours in gyroplanes and I am not a CFI so I don’t have any useful input.

In my helicopter training we had a syllabus and I found that useful. Because it spelled what was involved in doing a maneuver correctly and the standards by which proficiency was judged I did not take it personally or feel the instructor was trying to expand my training costs when we would not move on to the next level.

If I was a gyroplane instructor I would have a syllabus because of how it worked for me.

I have only had one instructor, Chris Burgess who was focused on the practical test standards. I found value in this.

I find value in asking questions if I am confused about something.

I have not found value in pretending to know something that I don’t.

I know it is how some people ask questions. It doesn’t work for me.

How do the people trying to learn something from the thread know who is asking questions by making statements and who actually is trying to share useful information?

Thank you, Vance
 
Fara,

If you are a CFI that would solo a student with the silent instructions as mentioned by you, then that is a sad day for the student. Is it not obvious that you would train the student to some level of proficiency before allowing them to do this maneuver? The subject of transitioning to a single seat machine is where the problem lies, and that is what a lot of threads have focused on recently.

The main problem is because of the inexperienced pilots that get impatient and try and do things on their own. I am sure there are pilots who try and fly trikes without instruction, but that is not my intent to bring up on this forum, as it deals with rotary wings.

What seems to be is the constant comparison that you make with trikes vs. gyroplanes, and it gets tiring after a while. It is evident that the difference in the dynamics of rotary wings is eluding you. The wings of a stationary trike will not pack the same energy as the turning rotors of a stationary gyroplane.

Silent instructions are anything and everything that are not spelled out in detail in the syllabus. So are crowhops part of a detailed lesson plan of instruction in gyroplane standardized syllabus and taught as a syllabus maneuver? Last time I checked lesson plans followed standards for practical and knowledge proficiency, which are standardized and thus the syllabus is generally standardized.

I don't and prefer not to allow my new solo students to do this maneuver in aircraft I teach in. I know the old school guys used to but guess what ... they are old school. I have seen enough to know that there is more danger there than there is good (not talking gyroplanes because you guys are the instructors there and I am not yet). All fixed wing CFIs out there today have a consensus going the same way as well. Few left that still ask new solo students to do crowhops with their first hours of solo. When my students mess up an approach or a landing, I teach them to go around without shame not to do a crow hop and try and save it. When my students solo in any category, for the first 2 or 3 solos, I require them to do it in my presence with me generally on the runway in constant radio contact with them.
Again I want to remind you I am not against doing crow hops with instructor in the aircraft but I am talking about solo student being asked to do crow hops by his instructor on his very first few hours of solo. Its a very important thing to understand of what is being mentioned here.

Of course wings are stationary (well not really ... the aircraft is stationary though) on rotary wings and produce lift Thomas. Why do you think I don't know that? What the heck does that have to do with a first or second or third time solo student doing crow hops?

I think its a cop-out to say students get impatient and do this or that. I have been right here. I have heard of enough gyro pilots falling out of the sky to give me very serious pause. In almost all cases save a couple, they were all signed off to solo or trained (single seaters require no sign off) and some even with endorsements for cat/class.
What is annoying to me honestly is that its right in front of you ... what ways have been used before aren't working very well. They need to change yet you guys discuss and keep blaming the student. I am sure for some instances that is completely on the mark but from what I have seen over the year not for a majority of incidents. May be its a wrong perception but we can probably go back last 1.5 years and see how many of the US accident/incident pilots were trained and how many not. That would be a good stat for us to know. Some of the trained signed-off flip-overs were not even reported anywhere. Trust me I am not the enemy.
 
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I have less than 1,300 hours in gyroplanes and I am not a CFI so I don’t have any useful input.

Hello Vance,

On the contrary I believe you have some of the most useful input from real gyroplane flying experience, and was wondering what took you so long to post. I am just banging my head against a brick wall in trying to understand the constant attempts at correlation between trikes and gyroplanes. It would be so much easier if one would just stick to gyroplanes and their unique characteristics instead of mixing trikes or airplanes in.

Hi Fara,

Crow hops in trikes or airplanes cannot be compared with crow hops in gyroplanes. What is the final touch down speed of a gyroplane typically, and that of a trike or airplane? That itself should clue one in.

You, with hardly any experience in gyroplanes, earlier stated that it is not a good maneuver for a solo student to perform. Maybe not good for you. Just because it is not in the standardized syllabus does not mean that it cannot be included. A lot of concepts in gyroplanes are still maturing after the catastrophic Bensen days. Yet experienced and highly respected pilots/instructors like Leigh have advocated practicing this.

You post things which sometimes make me perceive that you do not have a good concept of rotary wing dynamics. Your posts are edited and deleted within seconds. I understand you are not the enemy, just confusing me with trike comparisons and bland opinions. And in case you do not know, I am an AGI, so it is important for me to get the facts straight before I post something.
 
Fara, this started out to be an excellent thread by Larry Hughes about

Fara, this started out to be an excellent thread by Larry Hughes about

improvements in gyro training . What a shame you simply hijacked the thread by posting your drivel about crow hops.
Your posts show that you know nothing about crow hops in the gyro, what they are for, or how they are taught.

You might learn something if you talked less, or post less, as the case may be.
Marion
 
I think people arguing for and against wheel balancing and crow hops are thinking about them in different contexts. In my opinion, these meneuvers have value if you want to check out a new amateur built gyro. In fact, in Austria, you will not get approval for your flight test program unless you show that you have been through these maneuvers. They are also necessary steps if you are flight training in a single seat gyro, i.e., without an instructor on board.

If you are training in a two-seater with an instructor, these maneuvers should come much later in the syllabus. In this scenario, the risk-benefit ratio is less favorable and you will do better by taking off and practicing with the instructor while in the air.

-- Chris
 
I have less than 1,300 hours in gyroplanes and I am not a CFI so I don’t have any useful input.

Vance, you have an awful lot to contribute. It troubles me that this thread is dominated by those with no practical experience but feel they must be heard. I think this is to what you allude by your comment.

Personal loss motivates me to provide this forum for informed exchange of ideas to improve training, particularly the transition from dual to single seat gyros.

I offer some starting thoughts in the hopes that experienced gyro pilots and instructors can improve on them. Ideally, these would develop into an informal standard for instruction.
 
Sage Advice

Sage Advice

improvements in gyro training . What a shame you simply hijacked the thread by posting your drivel about crow hops.
Your posts show that you know nothing about crow hops in the gyro, what they are for, or how they are taught.

You might learn something if you talked less, or post less, as the case may be.
Marion

Sage advice from one of the giants of our sport.
I had the privilege of meeting Ms. Springer at Bensen Days where we had a lovely conversation and she autographed a copy of her book for me.

May we get this thread back on the rails now?
 
When did anyone die doing crowhops or wheel-balancing?. Never happened.

How many have died attempting a circuit ?. Plenty. Two in the last year, at least.

The problem is not that folks do crowhops/balancing.

The problem is with those that don't.

Mind you, you need FLAT CALM weather for your initial efforts.

Advanced maneouvres my @--.

Basic training.
 
Something I havent seen brought up is location choice.
I feel crow hops and balancing on the mains are the way to go.
but dont pick a smallish runway that the wind gusts from 5 to 7 mph directly across the runway ,oh and theres a rotor comming off the hangar there....
El Mirage, straight into the wind.
winds less than 5 mph to start.period.
stop when you get interested, not tired.
 
What makes a fatal accident?

What makes a fatal accident?

To the best of my knowledge, this has never happened.

Feel free to show me the examples you refer to.

It is my observation that a popular way to crash a gyroplane is to pull back on the cyclic to arrest a descent.

All the gyroplanes I have flown have some speed that is too slow to fly and she will descend at full power.

In my experience a sustained descent will terminate in ground impact.

I feel because of the energy in a rotor at flight speed the difference between a fatal accident and walking away has a lot to do with luck.

I feel even a simple tip over has the potential to be fatal.

Thank you, Vance
 
Nothing to disagree with there, Vance.

But we should be addressing the things that ARE killing people,
not focussing on things that MIGHT, but haven't.

Two-seat training is fine, up to a point. For turnkey tandem fliers it is fine all the way,
or can be.

The transition to single-seat removes the instructor safety backup feature and involves a significant aircraft transition.

It should be done using the smallest steps possible.

Ben's comments are all good sense, also, illustrating the point that, in a single-seater,
YOU need to be doing the thinking.
 
the only reason for balancing on the mains is because thats the position of the rotor to obtain the fastest RPM in other words the sweet spot for acheiving fast rotor speed.
If you change the balance to keep the weight forward the rotor will obtain that sweet spot faster and have more weight holding the rotor in that position and you will obtain rotor RPM faster than being balanced on the mains,and you also will have better control on take off,and the number of botched takeoffs will be greatly reduced.

I will begin by stating I am not a gyro Instructor, my gyro hours are limited. My notes were my own opinions compiled from many sources and my thanks to all of them including Marion Springer. They are intended to be presented as training notes as part of my course in becoming an Assistant Gyro Instructor. I am painfully aware that I have a long way to go, that my knowledge is limited, but I am learning. I expect to be learning for ever as I do not believe that process is ever done, and am always ready and willing to be corrected. I have paid a lot of attention to many very experienced gyro pilots and my thoughts are based on what has been learned from them.

Eddie with regard to your contention that the only reason for balancing on the mains is to get the 'sweet spot' is baffling to me, since you then go on to say that the 'sweet spot'??? ( perhaps an explanation of that term from you would be useful) can also be obtained while you are on all mains, and faster??? That would seem a bit of a contradiction. Your explanation is perhaps not the best for backing up Fara, who has admitted to being only a gyro student with no experience of single seat machines. His reason for not wanting to do wheel balancing or extended wheel balancing prior to going solo is to my mind a possibly dangerous misconception should he at any stage wish to fly a single seat gyro. In that situation he might wish to revise his thoughts on the matter.

One of the reasons for balancing in a single seat machine is to demonstrate to a ground observer preferably the Instructor, and to themselves the ability of the pilot in mastering the fine control required once airborne in avoiding Pilot Induced Oscillation.

In a dual seat machine there is less emphasis placed upon this particular exercise, partly because in the early stages the student is together with the Instructor who is immediately available to correct and or prevent such an occurrence, and also because most dual seat machines are not as light on the controls as most single seat machines, and on the whole tend to be more stable.

There are always exceptions to the rule however in the main, when a student goes from a dual to a single seater, control forces required will be lighter and the machine will respond to stick inputs quicker. It can therefore be seen that an inexperienced or low time gyro pilot could get into stability problems quite quickly.

It is also the case that many single seat machines tend to be open frame and therefor the visual references from cockpit coaming or windshield in relation to the horizon will be missing.

I can agree that with the nose wheel on the ground more directional control can be maintained, however it should be borne in mind that when coming in for landing the attitude that will result in the shortest landing roll is in a nose up attitude, and it may well be required for the pilot to cope with cross winds at that time. If he has had practice in maintaining directional control through extended wheel balancing he will be better able to control his machine when in that attitude, if landing with a crosswind was necessary.

An Instructor should be preparing their student with the appropriate exercises to be as safe as possible in the air in all phases of flight in the machine they are flying in, to allow a student to go solo before mastering the basic essentials appropriate to that machine is dangerous to the student. The Instructor can satisfy themselves by observing a student wheel balancing whether or not they are capable of the fine control movements required, as well as a situational awareness of exactly what is required for the conditions they are operating in at that time.

Learning to balance takes practice, as does doing it with any sort of a crosswind. It will not be easy for the beginner, who should begin with calm conditions or with very light winds directly down the runway. Only later with slight cross winds. It will be easier for those with previous experience on flying machines with a stick. There are flying machines that are not controlled in a similar manner and while they will bring over some advantages these will not apply to wheel balancing in a gyro.

It is not an exercise that is particularly relevant to other flying machines and the points made above I hope can help clarify why this particular exercise has a place in gyro training, in particular single seat gyro training.
 
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