If I get an RAF 2000 ...

Vance apparently you really DON'T know me. I have alwYs beesn very straight forward about any stock RAF. I have ALWAYS promoted the HS and some sort of realignment of the thrust line on these machines. I have contacted RAFSANJANI and vulunteed to have them look my machine over a few years back. You guys always try to veer people away from these machines when if they do the drop keel or AAI type
Mod while they are building theirs they wi be just as sAfe as anyone can be who flies. I kinda get the feeling you guys are just full of your own opinion and it seem to be like religion you just want to argue about it. Now Vance this really is the last time I will be pulled into this thread. I will sY you have your opinion and as a RAF owner I have mine and I will leave it at that.
 
The value of accident reports.

The value of accident reports.

Just curious, does anyone know if and how many of these students were signed off to fly or did they take it upon themselves to fly when they shouldn't have. I have seen students that have some training but have not yet reached their sign-off from their instructor jump into their machine and fly. We just had a member of our club do that and he tore up his machine. Would that be the instructors fault?

Also, how many other models have crashed with high time pilots? Was that the fault of the machine or fault of the pilot?

I own an RAF and am aware of the dangers. At this time I only have a HS but I'm planning to do a drop keel. I also have access to s Sparrow Hawk kit that I will probably install some day. Safety is certainly my upmost concern and anything I can do to make my machine safer is well worth the money to do so.

I have however have seen from past forum posts that whenever an RAF goes down it is always blamed on the machine. Any other model is always blamed on the pilot, just wondering what the difference is.


Hello Mike,

I read the preliminary accident reports every day, study the final NTSB reports and follow the accident discussions on this forum.

In my opinion the machine is always questioned no matter the make.

Some people try to be delicate about questioning the deceased pilot, some are blunt about it.

In my opinion very few accidents have just one cause. I feel is a chain of poor aviation decisions and the aircraft is part of that.

I would not try to summarize what I have learned from the study of the accidents for you because you might read the same reports and come to different conclusions.

In my opinion I have made most of the poor aviation decisions that have led to a pilot’s demise. I feel fortunate to not have paid that price for my mistakes and strive to make better decisions. That is why I study the reports.

For me hours of flight do not insure proficiency. I may be practicing something that is dangerous because of some ill-conceived notion.

I feel it is counterproductive to imagine I would never do anything that stupid or that somehow my aircraft is immune to some natural law.

I feel that studying accidents helps me to recognize the links of the chain. I feel it gives me tools to break that chain before it leads to an accident.

I have not found imagining that someone is attacking me or my aircraft is a useful way to discount what they say.

Thank you, Vance
 
Thom I'm going to have to follow suit because I have my own mind to keep in check. Plus I value friendship and the other benefits of this forum. This isnt worth it I'm out of this thread. Good luck 98.
 
I will try to be more clear!

I will try to be more clear!

Vance apparently you really DON'T know me. I have alwYs beesn very straight forward about any stock RAF. I have ALWAYS promoted the HS and some sort of realignment of the thrust line on these machines. I have contacted RAFSANJANI and vulunteed to have them look my machine over a few years back. You guys always try to veer people away from these machines when if they do the drop keel or AAI type
Mod while they are building theirs they wi be just as sAfe as anyone can be who flies. I kinda get the feeling you guys are just full of your own opinion and it seem to be like religion you just want to argue about it. Now Vance this really is the last time I will be pulled into this thread. I will sY you have your opinion and as a RAF owner I have mine and I will leave it at that.



Hello Thom,

I can only speak for me.

I don’t pretend to understand what makes an aircraft safe.

It is nice that you feel that you have made your aircraft safe.

You are correct; I didn’t know you were an “RAF basher” and only feel they are a safe aircraft when modified like yours.

In my opinion you did not make that clear to Brian either. His is not modified like yours.

I question it when people promote things that seem unreasonable to me or are historically inaccurate.

I am not part of a group and I feel there is no value in dismissing my opinions as a religion or a desire to argue.

I have never won an argument so I make an effort to avoid them.

I find value in the exchange of ideas and opinions.

Thank you Thom for letting me have the last word, Vance
 
Forgot to tell you all that I have flown on a RAF 2000 since my last post on this thread, the flight was amazing, we had perfect weather, the RAF felt very stable (although I am attributing this to the gyro class and not necessarily the RAF)

Needless to say, I am hooked on gyros, however it will NOT be an RAF 2000, simply the side by side configuration doesn't work for me, I'm a big guy and the cockpit felt small.

So now I'm down to just a couple options, pretty much the Calidus (if I decide for enclosed) or the MTOSport. At this point the other big 2 are not in my immediate list (I reserve the right to change my mind). ELA because I would have to bring it into Israel in kit form since there is already ELA in Israel, and I don't want to build this thing for a long time. And Magni is out because of their current wait time, I called the factory and they told me at least 4 months wait, and I just can't wait that long!
 
While searching for rod ends posts, I found this thread containing a couple of 2011 posts about another matter.

I was reminded daily of one of the fatalities because I circled the cross in the middle of the airfield he bore a hole in. He decided to fly with the doors on and had no prior training in them. Additionally, he was doing down wind maneuvers that had the airfield attempting to get him on the radio yet he was not able to be raised.
http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=436095&postcount=46

NOTE: Brian is speaking of the 2003 J.D. Long RAF crash at Brewton, AL. There has been some new light shed on this event. This post here is not to rehash, but to correct a misinterpretation of something in the NTSB Factual Report that Brian was apparently relying upon for his posts here.

I shouldn't have to sit here and debunk ****. know 100% of the story.
http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=436182&postcount=60
Brian, with respect, the NTSB Factual Report's "[Dofin] ran back inside the hangar and called the pilot on the radio with no response" was misleading (unintentionally, I'm sure), as it implies successful transmission but that Long was either ignoring the calls or not receiving them.

Your view that "the airfield [was] attempting to get [Long] on the radio yet he was not able to be raised" is not accurate, according to Dofin Fritts's own witness statement (281655.pdf). The Navy and RAF pilot Long were in contact while he was on threshold of 18, and the Navy reported no pattern traffic. At no time (while alive) was Long out of radio contact.

Truth told, Dofin had not actually been transmitting at all until Long had turned final for 18.

Dofin was not able to transmit from inside his hangar (where he was that cold January morning), and his first two trips outside with a handheld were for naught because he had inadvertently locked the keypad. Dofin had not been transmitting, and that is why he heard no response from Long. By the time he actually broke the airwaves, Long had prerotated, taken off, flown downwind and base legs and was already turning final 18. This would have been about 3-4 minutes.

Long's radio worked, and he was not ignoring calls. While alive, Long spoke by radio to the Navy and to Dofin. It was only after the fatal crash was the Navy (and then Dofin) not able to raise him.

Brian, you are correct that Long "decided to fly with the doors on and had no prior training in them. Additionally, he was doing down wind maneuvers". This, however, was in a newly constructed RAF with no H-stab yet sporting a 27% more powerful 165hp EJ25. (RAF Canada, likely because of three EJ25 machines going down with <35 hour RAF pilots, issued later that year Product Notice 38, discouraging owners from this big engine unless they'd already 400+ hours in their RAFs, or took transition training. 400 hours in a gyro is considerable -- at least two years for a 4hour/week owner, and few fly even that frequently.)

Long's unfortunate choice of EJ25 was at least implicitly condoned by Dofin, as the gyro was built throughout 2002 in his hangar and presumably with his continual hands-on involvement.

Long's unfortunate choice not to install an H-stab was also implicitly condoned, if not explicitly encouraged, by Dofin, whose deeply held philosophy on RAF tailfeathers was well known even in 2002.

Yes, Long was an adult who assumed full responsibility for his choices of construction and flight. He shouldn't have flown, and he likely understood that. But, I think it fair to wonder if he received technically accurate information on HLT/PPOs and err-on-the-side-of-safety advice from his primary mentor in the project.

23 January 2003 was a tragic confluence of things at Brewton: a transitioning pilot new to gyros (19 hours dual, 6.4 hours solo/doors-off), a very powerful machine not appropriate for RAF pilots with <400 hours, no H-stab or additional V-stab surface area, unilateral student access to both gyro and hangar prior to a successful checkride, unfamiliarity with doors-on yaw instability, moderate winds of 9kts, newly installed avionics as a possible distraction, Long's apparent disobedience of soloing with doors-on and his unexplained state of mind to choose a downwind runway, no handheld external antenna for hangar radio transmission, and a CFI who (according to his own statement) that morning neither objected to nor acted to prevent that unwise solo flight.

If anything I've written contains material error or unfair inference, please correct me on it for my apology and revision.


I attacked mr Beaty's sly post because it eludes to bad instruction and RAF. Which is a complete mucking.
With this new information, I'll leave it to you to privately reevaluate the event. I sympathize with any difficulty in your doing so, as I know that you began with gyros and Dofin was your first CFI. I would also have ennui hearing anything unflattering about mine.

Regards, Kolibri
 
Fortunately I had a lot of experience in an Air Command side by side HTL trainer that was always trying to bunt over when student in control. I just thought that a gyro had more in common with an helicopter than an aeroplane that it was always unstable.

Chuck B etc hung in there with me as I had to test rather for myself than just take their word for everything. So, I have REAL practical testing experience learning and then producing my Firebird. Unfortunately my accident over 7 years ago did not see Firebird into production with only one prototype and one manufactured and sold into the market place.

Aussie Paul. :)
 
I hear ya. In retrospect I wouldn't have flown my second gyro as an unstabbed RAF, but having trained with it before I installed a Boyer HS, I guess I'm glad for the "barebacked" experience. :)

HLT = Hand Looming Thottle

Regards, Kolibri
 
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I'm somewhat hesitant to tread over this ground again. --But the bottom line is I am wanting an enclosed two place gyro, but the prices for the modern euro machines are beyond me. And it seems RAF 2000s can be had in a reasonable price range.

My questions are really quite simple: Can the RAF 2000 be made safe? Assuming so, what does it take? I assume a horizontal stabilizer and dropping the thrust line? Anything else?

And I have a related question about dropping the engine by 6 inches or so. Does the CG not change and thrust become high again when two folks are in the gyro?
 
I personally like Larry Boyer's HS and drop keel conversion, it looks good and allows for the engine to be lowered by several inches. I don't fly my RAF with both doors on, it's too squirrelly, even with an HS.
 
I fly my 230 HP RAF with the doors on and its not unstable at all,in fact I have never

flown it with the doors off,I have the boyer stab and the RAF stabilator which is an

excellent trim tab.I might add that the height of the engine is not the problem its the lack

of a H stab that's been the real issue.




Best regards,
 
I recently built a RAF /SparrowHawk conversion with a RAF vert stab and the Ultimate stab. I wanted to try a different approach to that approach of conversion and attempt to stabilize the RAF with my tail feathers. Very disappointing and very unstable . I am finishing the tall tail and hope that does the job. At this point, I miss my drop keel, stabbed RAF that was super stable. I sold last fall.I believe the problem with the instability in the new build is the keel is shorter and as Gremminger says... Way back. Not so with this build.I have flown many different designs from single place to many 2 place machines. A properly set up RAF with drop keel and a good stab is more stable than most designs based on my personal experience. I had no fear of winds and flew my machine on many cross country flights of over 100 miles.Sorry Ron and chuck but you dudes are wrong. If a casualty made a design totally flawed, Cessna , Piper, Robinson, and most others would have been out of business way before their time. Until I get the courage to spend the big bucks, I will stick to my RAF. Only reason I built a new one with the SparrowHawk augmentation, was that I bought the kit cheep.otherwise, I loved
my 2005 RAF
 
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RAF Control System

RAF Control System

Just wondering if a push, pull cable control system can be installed on an RAF to easy the heavy control system, which might make it a safer aircraft.
 
I recently built a RAF /SparrowHawk conversion with a RAF vert stab and the Ultimate stab. I wanted to try a different approach to that approach of conversion and attempt to stabilize the RAF with my tail feathers. Very disappointing and very unstable . I am finishing the tall tail and hope that does the job. At this point, I miss my drop keel, stabbed RAF that was super stable. I sold last fall.I believe the problem with the instability in the new build is the keel is shorter and as Gremminger says... Way back. Not so with this build.I have flown many different designs from single place to many 2 place machines. A properly set up RAF with drop keel and a good stab is more stable than most designs based on my personal experience. I had no fear of winds and flew my machine on many cross country flights of over 100 miles.Sorry Ron and chuck but you dudes are wrong. If a casualty made a design totally flawed, Cessna , Piper, Robinson, and most others would have been out of business way before their time. Until I get the courage to spend the big bucks, I will stick to my RAF. Only reason I built a new one with the SparrowHawk augmentation, was that I bought the kit cheep.otherwise, I loved
my 2005 RAF

So you are the inventor of the "Boyer" tail. What does this look like? A google search doesn't provide much info.
 
Just wondering if a push, pull cable control system can be installed on an RAF to easy the heavy control system, which might make it a safer aircraft.

It is not hard to convert to a push/pull cable for cyclic control Danny.

In my experience a push/pull rod system will always have less friction than a push/pull cable system for cyclic control.

Use quality rod ends and check that the misalignment is not used up throughout the travel.

If you have stiff cyclic control on an RAF something is probably binding or your trim spring is not right.

All of the RAFs, modified RAFs and SparrowHawks I have flown had very little cyclic friction.
 
Flying the RAF

Flying the RAF

Guys I along with many others have flown various RAF configurations. I trained with Jim Logan who had no stab. The gyro felt OK. Then I flew with Gary Brewer, my good friend, who had installed a large HS after testing several other sizes of stabs. I found Gary's gyro to be very stable. You could pull the stick all the way to your stomach and let go. The gyro would float up and down a couple of times then return to level flight. Gary's gyro was not a handful. I believe if you put a good size stab on the RAF it really tames the machine. RAFs are currently a good value if a stab is installed. No stab...No way.
 
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