Join Pra Or Not? Free Forum Or Not?

What keeps someone from taking their PRA paper magazine and passing it around for their flying buddys to see right now? Why would it be worse if it was online? Sounds ridiculous to me.

Remember where I said the membership fees would be less than they are now? Remember I said 10-20$ per year??? For that small of a amount wouldn't most people just join than try to see some text their friend copy and pasted into a email???

And again, I ask you this, is the PRA a magazine subscription or is it more? It sounds like the magazine is the only allure to being a part of the PRA if seeing the magazine online illegally is going to be keeping people from spending that 10-20$ in dues that I proposed.

Again, this is the problem with the PRA and the past, present and future PRA board.... you guys can't be DO'ers, you guys can talk a bunch of big talk but can't ever seem to get around to getting anything done.

I fought like hell for years to get our chapter board to agree to drop our paper newsletter. Finally they saw the light and we voted just before Bensen Days to go to online newletters.

Why doesn't the EAA have a online newsletter? because alot of people are members of the EAA strickly for a magazine subscription. They have the numbers of members and the money coming in to put out a magazine and not go broke at the same time. If we had EAA numbers and EAA money I would never suggest dropping the paper magazine. But we don't....
 
Ron: There are two openings on the board. Run for one and correct the mistakes.


Stan
 
@Ron
Good points, I have never seen the magazine! I joined PRA to contribute to our sport. Take the magazine away I'll still be renewing as long as I see improvement in PRA.

John
 
Ron I am all for doin' and anyone who half knows me can attest to it.

Just because you examine an important issue from many angles and take precautions when implementing something that could potentially damage your organization does not mean you are a no-doer.

1. As I pointed out earlier the PRA has a large percentage of members that are not computer savvy. In addition to this some computer savvy members sill prefer a paper mag they don't have to print out and bind themselves.

2. What is wrong with testing in parallel? We do it in IT and we did it at the marketing firm I used to work for. This allows us to de-bug a new system before taking the old one out.

As far as makin' copies. Color photocopies are expensive and must travel by mail or by hand. On the other hand if I have an electronic document I can send it to a thousand people in an instant or post it on a bit torrent library.

Sure you can scan an issue but that is a pain in the butt.

I think the idea of an individually watermarked version is a reasonable way to reduce this possibility.

One positive thing about a digital version I would like to suggest is makin one issue a year "open source". In other-words one issue each year tell the members to email it around and print and post is AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE as a promotion.
 
When the PRA sends out the ballots to vote for new officers they could add a couple questions concerning an on-line magazine on the ballot. That way they could find out how many are for it and how many people are against it. Right now nobody really knows how many people would be against it. They're just guessing. I'd be willing to pay a $25 membership and get an online magazine.
 
Ron,

Our club has 33 active(and I use that term loosely) members. Of those 33, I have to mail 11 hard copies, which is 33% of our members. If we were to go to only electronic newsletters, we'd lose, by my guess, half of those 11 members. And, two years ago, when more members needed hard copies, most of our dues were going to ink cartridges, stamps, and labels. So, I know firsthand what the PRA is suffering through with the membership dues being eaten up by printing costs.

If this percentage follows through to the PRA membership, how many members do we lose if make the magazine electronic? My guess is more than we would gain.

I would be more than willing to get an electronic copy of the magazine. But, knowing our club members who don't have email, or a computer, it would be a huge dis-service to them to stop the magazine.

Fifty bucks is probably a lot less of an expense to me than a lot of members, but I look at that $50 as an investment in our sport. Yeah, I don't know how much of that $50 actually improves our sport, but I don't want to take the chance it'll be the missing $50 that ends our organization.

I have a suggestion: Quite a number of us send Todd $20 to keep this forum up and running. How about we each send the PRA the same amount, too?
 
Ron ...

One positive thing about a digital version I would like to suggest is makin one issue a year "open source". In other-words one issue each year tell the members to email it around and print and post is AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE as a promotion.
Lost leaders really do work, good idea!
John
 
When the PRA sends out the ballots to vote for new officers they could add a couple questions concerning an on-line magazine on the ballot. That way they could find out how many are for it and how many people are against it. Right now nobody really knows how many people would be against it. They're just guessing. I'd be willing to pay a $25 membership and get an online magazine.
I like surveys!!!
But guys come on I don't want to reduce the membership fees, sorry! I want to add value to all parts of PRA, and turn $50 into a bargain basement price. Or how about sign up ten new members and it's $15 bucks?
You can't grow anything without money. Personally I believe that the only problem now, is money!
The BOD is doing the best with what it's got and it's a thankless job, you can't imagine, especially with no money and no full time employee to direct!
None of us can expect anyone to take off and work full time! And that is what it would really take until there was enough money to hire a salesmen/manager replacement.

Let's concentrate on things we can fix today and solutions for the future.

John #42
 
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Ron,

...
I have a suggestion: Quite a number of us send Todd $20 to keep this forum up and running. How about we each send the PRA the same amount, too?

A lot of good idea's!!

Ok but having money without a marketing plan, rarely make one successful. Let's raise enough money to do what? My vote would be a fulll time salesman/ manager!

Just throwing money at a problem isn't the solution. What's the plan to increase revenue?


So have the board pick something and see how much money we can raise to get us earning and growing.

John
 
Great thread

Great thread

I find this thread most interesting.

As for my 2 cents worth.

I learned about PRA from another member giving me his copies of Rotorcraft so that I had an idea and got a bit of flavour of the magazine. Yes I am a member now too.

I strongly believe that this concern about someone photo copying the mag to pass on is a possibility but more so quite remote.
However, something on line,... well, that's the breed of the internet.

Other associations offer pilots a percentage discount for every new member they sign up. Can't remember the exact amount, 10%/ new member is what comes to mind.
Which equates to 10 new members, one free membership renewal for yourself.

Keep the minds churning, new ideas will only culitivate more.

Regards,

Jim.
 
@Jim
It's not hard for my five-years old grandkids to scan pictures they have colored and send them to me without there parents help.
But you are right there is some type of reduction in the morality threshold for downloading off the internet that's for sure!
Think because it's always been free and some people even object to paying for content.

But there is another human nature trait that I have observed. That is if they really like it the thieves buy it as soon as they can.

So I think of stolen copies as lost leaders, where the thieves will become members because they obviously want it.

I hope only a small number of our members our thieves, in any case!
---

The sign up 10 members and earn your membership I hope we implement, as I have seen this really work well for kids with little money they aren't as why to just ask either.

---

Oh I just thought of a way you could keep people from stealing it!

Use the same technology I use to register my software on-line where I send a encryption key back only if it 'my customer' and the account is 'paid'.

We could make it a zipped .exe file that the member must download and run!
Before the program will open and unscramble the mag it will re-connect to our web-site and verify he has only opened one copy this month on one certain computer if you like.
It's actuality simple as it's exactly what I've been doing for 15 years to keep people from stealing my accounting packages and Microsoft just started registering XP and Vista this way so you know it's secure!

Yes for sure you can stop people from stealing it!

The only inconvenience I see right now. It will only open on one computer. open it on a Desktop at work, you won't be able to open it at home, or on third laptop.
It will only run on 1 computer per month exactly like a operating system registration.

It is fun to watch the creativity process, from a no to an easy yes.

Can't believe I didn't think of this before, simple, automatic, and I've been doing it for years, longer than most.

John
 
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As far as the magazine....I have always been in favor of having a hard copy to rehash from time to time. Our magazine needs articles from members....and I have one in the pipeline now for a future issue. Anyone that flys gyros or helos has flying stories to tell...build stories.....and just good socializing stories that this great and interesting group of people seem to generate.

Once in awhile someone sends in a piece of their adventure and we all just soak it up. If we could just get back to submitting articles to the magazine just like the excellent technical submitters do....we would have a more interesting magazine for hard or online printing....and this would be a catalyst for new members to want to subscribe to.

I am trying to work out some ideas and present them at the next board meeting regarding membership drives....maybe an incentive for a free membership to members that submit a certain number of articles....this membership to be passed on to a new person at the members choice.

Just some ideas off the top of my head.

I know myself and Tim O'Conner have given out memberships...but it would be more effective if we had a collective group that would also jump in sponsoring a new member.

I will start a new thread proposing such.

Anyway....lots of good ideas here being hashed around....thats what it takes....new thinking .......something needs to change direction.


Stan
 
Ron I am all for doin' and anyone who half knows me can attest to it.

Just because you examine an important issue from many angles and take precautions when implementing something that could potentially damage your organization does not mean you are a no-doer.

1. As I pointed out earlier the PRA has a large percentage of members that are not computer savvy. In addition to this some computer savvy members sill prefer a paper mag they don't have to print out and bind themselves.

2. What is wrong with testing in parallel? We do it in IT and we did it at the marketing firm I used to work for. This allows us to de-bug a new system before taking the old one out.

As far as makin' copies. Color photocopies are expensive and must travel by mail or by hand. On the other hand if I have an electronic document I can send it to a thousand people in an instant or post it on a bit torrent library.

Sure you can scan an issue but that is a pain in the butt.

I think the idea of an individually watermarked version is a reasonable way to reduce this possibility.

One positive thing about a digital version I would like to suggest is makin one issue a year "open source". In other-words one issue each year tell the members to email it around and print and post is AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE as a promotion.

1. First off, how do you know we have a large percentage of non computer savvy members? Just cause we got alot of old guys in the PRA does not mean they don't have a computer and know how to type in WWW.PRA.ORG And currently what do we have, maybe a thousand members, do we really need to continue to suffer and live in the stone ages just for the sake of a few people too cheap to either go buy a computer ( or get webtv or even internet on their cell phone ) or go to a internet access spot in town and check out the website to get the monthly magazine.

did you see where I said monthly? How long ago was it that we got a monthly mag.... no paper magazine and we should be able to easily have it on a monthly basis again.


2. Even though Dean told me the same thing and he thinks I am ratting him out, I was told by a board member after the Bensen Days meeting that the PRA BOD discussed and turned down the idea of offering dual level of memberships.... one at 50$ and you get a paper magazine and one at a reduced rate and no magazine. Apparently the idea is that if given a choice too many current members would swap over to the cheaper no magazine membership status and the cost per issue for the remaining members who do want the magazine would skyrocket, making things worse for the PRA to put out a paper magazine. Apparently the more copys of the magazine they print and mail the cheap per copy it is............ So saying that, I don't see how they would be able to test it by offering or testing it in parallel


3. Granted, not many people would go to the trouble of scanning a PRA magazine and emailing it to their friends. But who has a 1000 friends they would email a " PRA Online Magazine issue " to? Do you think it would really honestly be any different than it is now, where PRA members may loan their magazine copy to a fellow chapter member or pilot who is not a PRA member, so they can see the mag too? I just don't see how this would be a problem, and I am no Website Wizard, but I would think there is a way to make it where it couldn't be easily copied, and you make that part of the PRA website where the magazine issue would be posted a username and password protected area to keep non members from viewing that info ( just like the EAA's website has )


And think about it.... it is nice to feel good about the sport, and feel in debt to all those who came before us and did so much in the name of the PRA. It goes a long way in opening up wallets each year and shelling out the 40$ dues and now the even higher 50$ dues. But I am telling you that I am extremely hesitant on renewing at 50$, I just don't see the value in it, and I Would not ever give 50$ a year just for this magazine as it is now and I do not see the PRA doing anything else positive with my dues money. Other people have to be feeling the same way, I know I am cheap and highly opinionated, but I can't be alone in my thinking here.

It feels like a sinking ship, being part of the PRA, and I am telling you, the PRA needs to do something big and do something radical to retain members and draw back in large numbers of new members. Like I said, the PRA has always had alot of big talk and nearly no action.. and the membership drives and all the talk about if you just got one friend each to join we would double our membership numbers ( but nearly no one does this ) is just that, TALK. Cheap talk.... and meanwhile we just see the membership number decline and a lack of interest in people and less benifits to the members, thinner magazine, and so on. Time for change guys.... time for change PRA BOD
 
Ron: There are two openings on the board. Run for one and correct the mistakes.


Stan


Stan, on one hand I would love to do just that. But to be completely honest, I do not stand for bull$hitting around in meetings and I can quickly loose my temper in meeting enviroments and curse words can uncontrollably fly outta my mouth and I have even been known to slam my hand loudly on a desk! Honestly I don't think I would be able to put up with 10 or 11 other people dragging their feet along about a topic, and most of my ideas would be too radical for the board anyway and with none of my ideas getting passed I would get pissed and probably quit the board.

I know all that sounds like I am pulling your leg, but this is what I had to do in my own chapter, dealing with a few indivuduals in our chapter and even one on our chapter BOD. But now when we have a meeting we get stuff done and we aren't afraid to go out on a limb to try something if it seems like a good idea. I attended a Sunstate chapter meeting at their new years fly-in and it was pure chaos, I couldn't be a part of meetings like that.

And lastly, it is pretty bad when you nominate yourself. If you say there was two open spots and I wasn't nominated, then that means to the nominators there were better canidates.

Hope you understand. :rapture:
 
Ron,

Our club has 33 active(and I use that term loosely) members. Of those 33, I have to mail 11 hard copies, which is 33% of our members. If we were to go to only electronic newsletters, we'd lose, by my guess, half of those 11 members. And, two years ago, when more members needed hard copies, most of our dues were going to ink cartridges, stamps, and labels. So, I know firsthand what the PRA is suffering through with the membership dues being eaten up by printing costs.

If this percentage follows through to the PRA membership, how many members do we lose if make the magazine electronic? My guess is more than we would gain.

I would be more than willing to get an electronic copy of the magazine. But, knowing our club members who don't have email, or a computer, it would be a huge dis-service to them to stop the magazine.

Fifty bucks is probably a lot less of an expense to me than a lot of members, but I look at that $50 as an investment in our sport. Yeah, I don't know how much of that $50 actually improves our sport, but I don't want to take the chance it'll be the missing $50 that ends our organization.

I have a suggestion: Quite a number of us send Todd $20 to keep this forum up and running. How about we each send the PRA the same amount, too?


Not to sound rude or disrespectful to the elderly, but isn't it mostly the elderly who are without email and computers Mark? And if so, would you say it is accurate to say these people are not the future of our sport and that our sport should not suffer just to cater to this segment of our sport???

Don't you have a hard time selling a new chapter member on the PRA? I know that right now if I was getting into gyros and someone suggested I send in $50 for PRA membership and I saw what I got for that $50 I would be pissed. I know as a member who has been around for 7 years what the PRA was before and why it is what it is now, so I know what I am going to get for my $50, but a newbie is going to be disappointed....

Yeah, I don't know how much of that $50 actually improves our sport,
I wanted to quote you again, because this is a good question. How much of yours and my $50 is really honestly improving our sport. I say nearly none of it if any of it at all. It is going towards printing out a crappy magazine that lacks color photos, lacks content, lacks large numbers of advertisers / possible vendors, lacks a up to date and current classified section, and lacks in number of issues per year.

Anyone remember the PRA calender issue? Hell that alone was almost worth the dues alone and we haven't gotten one of those in years.
 
I like surveys!!!
But guys come on I don't want to reduce the membership fees, sorry! I want to add value to all parts of PRA, and turn $50 into a bargain basement price. Or how about sign up ten new members and it's $15 bucks?
You can't grow anything without money. Personally I believe that the only problem now, is money!
The BOD is doing the best with what it's got and it's a thankless job, you can't imagine, especially with no money and no full time employee to direct!
None of us can expect anyone to take off and work full time! And that is what it would really take until there was enough money to hire a salesmen/manager replacement.

Let's concentrate on things we can fix today and solutions for the future.

John #42

I don't want to poop on your parade, but you came here out of no where and it seems like in the process of one week you have talked the biggest bunch of Hype I have ever read on the forum here. 99 percent of your ideas will never happen. And without 99 percent of your ideas happening, we will continue to suffer and loose members and interest in the PRA due to more or less overpriced dues.
 
As far as the magazine....I have always been in favor of having a hard copy to rehash from time to time. Our magazine needs articles from members....and I have one in the pipeline now for a future issue. Anyone that flys gyros or helos has flying stories to tell...build stories.....and just good socializing stories that this great and interesting group of people seem to generate.

Once in awhile someone sends in a piece of their adventure and we all just soak it up. If we could just get back to submitting articles to the magazine just like the excellent technical submitters do....we would have a more interesting magazine for hard or online printing....and this would be a catalyst for new members to want to subscribe to.

I am trying to work out some ideas and present them at the next board meeting regarding membership drives....maybe an incentive for a free membership to members that submit a certain number of articles....this membership to be passed on to a new person at the members choice.

Just some ideas off the top of my head.

I know myself and Tim O'Conner have given out memberships...but it would be more effective if we had a collective group that would also jump in sponsoring a new member.

I will start a new thread proposing such.

Anyway....lots of good ideas here being hashed around....thats what it takes....new thinking .......something needs to change direction.


Stan


Stan my point has always been that the magazine has never sucked because we weren't sending Rick in some nice articles to print. Unless I am mistaken, Rick is only allowed to put a given amount of content into the magazine.... IOW's he is only allowed X number of pages. So if we all sent Rick a article, would he even be able to print it?

You like going back and reading old issues, me too. I have all my old Rotorcraft magazines on a shelf about 10 feet away from my computer right here. But can't we just as easily go back online and re read our old issues there?

The only negative about not having a paper article is we wouldn't be able to take Rotorcraft magazine in to the bathroom to read while taking a poop. Well if you got a laptop I guess you could, but that is the only negative I see about not having a paper copy:)
 
What the EAA does....

What the EAA does....

Why doesn't the EAA have a online newsletter?

Huh?

They do have one. So does AOPA. I get both!


The EAA has an online news briefing but not an online magazine.

From what I can tell as an EAA member what they do is this:

1. Paper Mag (two of them actually)

2. Spouse membership for an extra $10 ( not sure what this actually gives you)

3. SELECTED articles from the magazine on the website in .pdf format to promote the magazine (I think this is an interesting model!)

Here they show you what you are missing (tease) and give you one or two articles from the magazine:

http://www.sportpilot.org/magazine/

Here you can find past promo articles (my article on gyroplanes is even here December 2004)

http://www.sportpilot.org/magazine/feature/

4. The web site contains both rich PUBLIC and MEMBER only content.


I think this is a model worth studying.

.....I do not stand for bull$hitting around in meetings and I can quickly loose my temper in meeting enviroments and curse words can uncontrollably fly outta my mouth and I have even been known to slam my hand loudly on a desk! Honestly I don't think I would be able to put up with 10 or 11 other people dragging their feet along about a topic, and most of my ideas would be too radical for the board anyway and with none of my ideas getting passed I would get pissed and probably quit the board.

...And lastly, it is pretty bad when you nominate yourself. :

I think a BOD should be made up of a wide spectrum that represents the membership. I would nominate you in a heartbeat (well, after you took a meeting-anger-management class ;) )

Personally, I have been an officer in several orgs and companies and I do hate meetings that wander in circles. You really do have to Steele yourself to take BOD decisions that don't all go your way and not take it personally. ( insert your favorite quip or Mark Twain quote on how committees can screw anything up... :rolleyes: )

I think this thread is a good example of how a collection of people can hash out some ideas and bring many new ideas to the table making some good ideas even better.

One thing I try to keep in mind is that the PRA is not a chapter and big ships turn more slowly but they have to in order not to risk capsizing.

The BOD on one hand does have to LEAD the org into new waters but they also have the responsibility of representing the membership and not risking the health of the organization when an EFFECTIVE safer path can be found.

...the PRA needs to do something big and do something radical to retain members and draw back in large numbers of new members. Like I said, the PRA has always had alot of big talk and nearly no action.. ... Time for change guys.... time for change PRA BOD

I agree Ron talk is cheap. So other than canning the mag for digital media only what else would you do that is radical and would gain us membership?

.
 
use the money to place ads back in popular mechanics magazine.... use the money to put a booth up at Oskhosh and Sun n Fun.... use the money to help the chapter out....

Heck I could come up with countless ideas, but the first thing is getting more members involved and growing the sport and the org. I just don't ever see it happening as things are now with our current magazine and the $50 dues. Do you?
 
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