Safest Gyro

dragonflyerthom said:

98

... Oh and I wouldike to add that if this is your first gyro get a small single place first. It's like buying a Harley for your first motorcycle

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There is one single seater I really like so far, the Sport Copter Vortex M912, however I haven't been able to find as much info on it as for the RAF, can anyone share their views on this machine? Like when did it first fly? How does it fly? Pros? Cons? I think someone told me the Vortex is a non-forgiving craft at best better left to the pros to fly.

Also something I'm a bit concerned (maybe needlessly) is training. If I get a 2-seater, I will be training on my machine, thus learning exactly how to fly it, whereas if I get a single seater, I will be training on a RAF 2000 only to then fly my machine. So question to you all, how simple/complicated is it to move from one machine to a different one. Keep in mind I will only have between 25 - 40 hours when that happens (hardly an experienced pilot).

Should be an easy transition. Fly an RAF and you can fly almost any other

dragonflyerthom said:

98

... Oh and I wouldike to add that if this is your first gyro get a small single place first. It's like buying a Harley for your first motorcycle

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Forgot to ask, why exactly do you think a small single place would be a better choice? (BTW, my first motorcycle was a 1500cc Honda Valkyrie and I felt very comfortable on it)

If I had it to do over again I would get LTL dominator type as my first gyro. Looking at what you are, I can see you are leaning towards some type of enclosed gyro. This would matter if you are flying in the rain but we really don't fly in the rain unless we get caught in it. Not good for any type of rotors. I have only been caught once and hope to never do that again. But that is just me. Georgio from Cyprus put out a nice product you might talk to him also.

dragonflyerthom said:

98

Most of the berates on this forum will run the RAF down but one of the most popular poster on this forum (Birdy) owns a RAF. Go figure that one out.

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Thom, bout the only thing left RAF in birdy's RAF is the cabin, hence the reason he calls it the WASA(raf), it got different motor,lifted (914) different seats to lift the weight, different blades, HS.
So dont think you can call it a RAF in any sense really.

98InTheHole said:

Forgot to ask, why exactly do you think a small single place would be a better choice? (BTW, my first motorcycle was a 1500cc Honda Valkyrie and I felt very comfortable on it)

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If the goal is to be up in the air flyhing around and checking out the scenery or just having fun boring holes in the sky, a single place has many advantages. The lighter the Gyro the less power it takes to fly it, the smaller engine you can use and the less fuel you will have to burn to stay in the air. This means it will be less expensive to buy and less expensive to fly it. It is also easier to fly, easier to land, more maneuverable so it makes for a lighter and more fun to fly kind of experience. The lighter it is the shorter distance it will take to get it off the ground and the slower you will typically come in for a landing. The lighter the machine the slower it will typically cruise so it may not be as good for a cross country machine, but if your goal is to get up in the air and have fun flying to nowhere in particular, you can't beat a single place machine.

Really unless you have a particular need for a two place machine, most people woudl be happier with a single place machnine.

If It was me.....I would learn to fly a small single place gyro and build some hours and experience.....then buy a 2 place. You can have a 2 place dominator, but I am not sure if Ernie will sell you one unless you have a certain number of hours under your belt.
Check all your options, have fun.

Learjet said:

Please take care to factor in your MAUW weight with respect to Density Altitude, particularly if you're giving demo rides to members of the public. Unfortunately, this is often exactly how the unwary get caught by Density Altitude as it's not a constant entity, and just because one got away with it yesterday, or the day before, or the weeks or months before with passenge & pilot weighing x lbs, does not mean that the day will not come when the weather gods conspire to have a density altitude that bites the unway (over)loaded gyro which previously "never had a problem taking off"....

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Thanks for the advice. However I'm an experienced AZ pilot with plenty of high density altitude take offs & landings. I know my capabilities as well as my machines. I'm not flying a machine with a Rotax engine that needs 2000' + of runway to get out of ground effect. We see air density altitude changes as high as anywhere in the world with 7000' MSL runways seeing >11,000' air density altitudes. You're preaching to the choir.

Most of the berates on this forum will run the RAF down but one of the most popular poster on this forum (Birdy) owns a RAF.
OwnED a RAF Thom.

Go figure that one out.
It was the only 2seater for sale for a thousand miles of ere.

Anyone want to dispute this. Chuck B????
Why would CB dispute it??

For comfort, economy, price, and when modified a little the RAF is the hands down winner.
It was an uncomfortable, heavy, thirsty, unstable, cheap [ 2nd hand] gyro with a cab. Sumthn i knew i could make into a proper flyn machine.

scottessex said:

If It was me.....I would learn to fly a small single place gyro and build some hours and experience.....then buy a 2 place. You can have a 2 place dominator, but I am not sure if Ernie will sell you one unless you have a certain number of hours under your belt.
Check all your options, have fun.

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At this point I don't see myself carrying a passenger at all, a single place would work fine, however I am looking for an enclosed cockpit, something like the Vortex M912. Can anyone tell me about the Vortex M912? How "good/safe" is it? I've tried asking before and have seen no info, does this mean there aren't many of those flying around?

rfsolutions said:

Thanks for the advice. However I'm an experienced AZ pilot with plenty of high density altitude take offs & landings. I know my capabilities as well as my machines. I'm not flying a machine with a Rotax engine that needs 2000' + of runway to get out of ground effect. We see air density altitude changes as high as anywhere in the world with 7000' MSL runways seeing >11,000' air density altitudes. You're preaching to the choir.

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Thanks Marv. Just looking out for your (and your pax)safety. No preaching intended

Ernie @ Rotor Flight Dynamics, had a dominator with a mosquito helicopter cabin on it, you could easily replace the 618 with a 912. I do not know if it has been sold or not.

The new RFD Eagle XG gyrocopter at Bensen Days 2009 - YouTube

AndyTille said:

Hi Gregorius, have a look on the main landing gear and the frame near the ground, i think the cyprus autogyro got a very poor shock absoring landing gear. In a wrong high energy vertical landing (baloon) the suspension get no way to absorbe the energy, the frame will hit the runway and the hole gyro got a shockload, heavy G forces on all components. What happend than is just luck or badluck.........the saftes gyro must have a high energy absorbing landing gear to eliminate energy from wrog landing and get a soft tuch. Andy

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It seems once more again that few who have a keyboard can play experts even on things that haven't seen before.
Because I know only one gyro manuf in Cyprus, Andy Tille, I am pretty sure you are referring to GENESIS.
Have you ever seen one of those gyros, Andy? Did you ever fly a Genesis or is it just imaginations/guess? Your comments (i think the cyprus autogyro got a very poor shock absoring landing gear) I can assure you that this is very poor fantasy.
(Actually I understand why you write this… it’s just for other reasons…….)
I really shouldn’t bother answering you Andy Tille if this was written by someone who is new to gyros.
First I must say that the Genesis with absorbing landing gear was drop tested, fully loaded from almost two meters high (stop and drop landing). The main wheels traveled 5 inches up but this is not the secret, the rebound action was more important to see. The mains observed all forces and almost no kick up. I want to leave this to Nicolas to answer and I hope he will find some time to upload the videos and see how all tests were made. All these tests were necessary and documented for the European Certification of Genesis.
Nicolas is working really very hard on this.

98InTheHole said:

At this point I don't see myself carrying a passenger at all, a single place would work fine, however I am looking for an enclosed cockpit, something like the Vortex M912. Can anyone tell me about the Vortex M912? How "good/safe" is it? I've tried asking before and have seen no info, does this mean there aren't many of those flying around?

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Daniel,

The Sport Copter Vortex has been around for many years and there are lots of them flying. (all with satisfied owners, at least I have never heard of one that was unhappy with theirs) Not as many have the heavier Rotax 912 engine on them as that is a more recent modification done by the designer, but they have an excellent reputation and are a machine I would have no reservations recommending to anyone.

As was mentioned earlier, Ernie Boyette of RFD has a great little single place cabin machine built with a Rotax 618. If you are a larger pilot you may not fit in it easily but if you are small to medium sized you should fit in it fine and it would be a great little enclosed single place machine. (from a company with a great reputation and one of the most loyal customer followings I have ever seen.

Also (if you are thinking of a partially enclosed machine, which is what I would consider the Sport Copter Vortex with their cabin) the Butterfly Aurora with the new wrap around windshield will accomplish about the same thing (talking about protection from the elements and greater cruise speed) and now you are talking about a machine that I believe fits the category of "Safest Gyroplane available on the market today". While there are not as many Butterfly Owners out there (as they are a newer design) they all love their machines and it is rare to see a used one become available and when they do they are snatched up quickly. The Aurora is the ultimate single place machine available in my opinion.

You should at least look at these machines more carefully. Anyone of them would be a machine you would be very happy with.

GyroDoug said:

...

Also (if you are thinking of a partially enclosed machine, which is what I would consider the Sport Copter Vortex with their cabin) the Butterfly Aurora with the new wrap around windshield will accomplish about the same thing (talking about protection from the elements and greater cruise speed) and now you are talking about a machine that I believe fits the category of "Safest Gyroplane available on the market today". While there are not as many Butterfly Owners out there (as they are a newer design) they all love their machines and it is rare to see a used one become available and when they do they are snatched up quickly. The Aurora is the ultimate single place machine available in my opinion.

You should at least look at these machines more carefully. Anyone of them would be a machine you would be very happy with.

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Thanks for the info. I checked the Butterfly site and I can't see the new wrap around windshield. Do you have some photos?
Also, when you say "newer design", what does that mean? When was it introduced to the market? Also when was the wrap around windshield first flown?

Nicely put Doug!

AndyTille said:

Hi Gregorius, have a look on the main landing gear and the frame near the ground, i think the cyprus autogyro got a very poor shock absoring landing gear. In a wrong high energy vertical landing (baloon) the suspension get no way to absorbe the energy, the frame will hit the runway and the hole gyro got a shockload, heavy G forces on all components. What happend than is just luck or badluck.........the saftes gyro must have a high energy absorbing landing gear to eliminate energy from wrog landing and get a soft tuch. Andy

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Andy,

another unfounded speculation. How often have you flown it? There are two versions, one with suspension and one with a metal bar as axle. The metal bar takes a lot of punishment without trouble, the suspension even more.
Both versions fulfill all the tests required by European aviation authorities.

I just don't understand this kind of posts.

Kai.

98InTheHole said:

Thanks for the info. I checked the Butterfly site and I can't see the new wrap around windshield. Do you have some photos?
Also, when you say "newer design", what does that mean? When was it introduced to the market? Also when was the wrap around windshield first flown?

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Daniel,

Attached is a picture of a Butterfly Aurora with the new windsheild. It is a simple curved windshield (curving top to bottom - not side to side) but it is made with high tech materials and is very strong and coated in a way to be very scratch resistent so it is very durable. This option has only been available for a couple of months now, so it is very new and is only on a few machines at this point. While it doesn't make you feel like you are crawling into an enclosed cabin, it does provide basically the same level of protection from the elements and it does clean up the Gyro aerodynamically and Larry said it adds about 10 mph speed based on the same engine rpm setting. I suspect in was first flown about May of 2011.

The Butterfly Line of Gyroplanes has been around for about 10 years now. Larry Neal, who designed the Butterfly line, has been involved in designing and building Gyroplanes for more than 30 years. However the Aurora model is only a couple of years old. I suspect there are only about a dozen of this model out there flying today. The Butterfly LLC is a small company that until the last couple of years was a one man operation that hired a couple of people as contractors to help them build some of their parts.

Larry is working very hard to grow the company and has a large vision of what it will be some day but it takes time to grow a company and his strong point is designing machines, not in marketing them. To help with this situation he has recently taken on a Marketing Manager and has been building a Dealer Network that can take on the marketing responsibilities and currently has about a dozen Dealers, world wide. Lately he has been selling more machines outside of the US than he has in the US. Although I am not aware of any Dealers in your area. The Butterfly line is known for being designed to be Center Line Thrust, having very powerful Pre-Rotators, having impact absorbing landing Gear and constantly bringing new innovations (like folding rotors) to the world of Gyroplanes. Larry has a very good safety record with his machines and is very easy to work with and well respected in the industry. As Butterfly owners we are a small but very happy group.

My dream machine - wishing there was one out there wanting to change owners like Chris W's super-Monarch!! A few more lessons under my belt -- going to find a way to start building one! "Tiggy-B" too heavy for sport pilot flying ( legally!)

Chris- In my opinion, that Monarch would be the perfect machine for you. It would be of the same genetics that your Golden Butterfly is. You would have that excellent G-force landing gear, something which I think is very cool to watch land. I think it would be a definite safety factor landing in rough terrain where you have to drop it in. Nice big safety factor in my opinion.

Stan