Gyrobee Tail design

WildBill

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Nov 14, 2010
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Cumberland, ME
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There are several variation of tail configurations on Gyrobees. Which is the best? Looking for which flys the best.
 
Bill, a tall tail, like a Dominator, has advantages that no other tail configuration can match. It's a lot of work to adapt to the Gyrobee, though.

The Watson tail works well (I owned the original for several years), but its vertical surfaces could be bigger. In my opinion, a Watson with expanded verticals would be excellent. A fairly easy way to make the Watson verticals larger is to eliminate the radical taper to a point at the top. Make the leading and trailing edges more nearly vertical, creating an upside-down keystone shape instead of a triangle.

The Brock tail surfaces used on the prototype 'Bee have insufficient horizontal stabilizer power and should not be employed (or imitated).
 
Doug Riley :
Are you talking about the tails that are used like on (Grants, Steve McGowan gyro ) ?

I was looking at them about 7 or 8 months ago. I was not sure if it would work or not. Wish there were more plans out there on the building of HZ stabs and VS for gyro's But I could not find to many. Maybe 2 sets.
I did talk to Maxie W. and he helped me out some one the ones he used to build. He has gotten out of it altogether. I joined E.A.A. Chapter 330 and all the gyro nuts are gone now also, the guys said when Maxie left they started dropping out.....
 
Chris, I can't picture Steve McG's exact configuration. He has a small HS, and I believe it's mounted on the tail tube ahead of the verticals. That's what Ralph did on the prototype Gyrobee. That type of setup is not adequate for a stock 'Bee, though. The stock Bee needs a H-stab that can compensate for its slightly high thrustline.

Things to look for in a Gyrobee tail:

(1) verticals at least 5 sq. ft. in area. More is better.
(2) H-stab at least 5 sq. ft., too
(3) H-stab located as far aft as possible (not ahead of the verticals, but sprouting out of either side of them or on top in a T-tail arrangement)
(4) H-stab not down on tail tube, but at least 10: above it, to catch propwash.
 
Doug Riley :
Just to make sure I understand do you have any pic you could show?
the 2 are Steve and Grant
 

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Chris: The tail in your avatar looks just about ideal. Grant's looks fine, except that the H-stab would be better placed up in the propwash, not down on the tail tube. This is not as critical for a CLT machine (Grant's looks close), but a stock Gyrobee is not CLT.

I'm attaching a couple pics of my 'Bee with the Watson tail. The H-stab on this tail is just right in terms of size and placement. As I mentioned earlier, the vertical surfaces could stand to be bigger. I'm building a new tail with larger verticals. It's just flat plywood panels, a la Bensen.
 

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Gyrobee design possibilities

Gyrobee design possibilities

My question regarding the Gyrobee tail is directed toward which tail configuration (T Style, Tall etc…) is the best in terms of the aircrafts operation and performance. I believe I mentioned I have a friend who is a retired aerodynamics engineer. One of the topics we have been discussing is the Horizontal Stabilizer (HS). He said the aircraft would have a lesser performance capability if the HS was placed in the center of the prop-wash. In fact he has shown me drawings and calculations that clearly show and prove what he is saying.

Basically he insists for the best performance the HS needs to be as far away from the Prop-wash as possible. One design that seems to follow this is the Hornet. I have not reviewed it in any detail to determine if the reason the tail keel section is purposely lowered to accommodate the HS or not. Maybe someone can say for sure. If so it may be worth looking at that as a possible enhancement to the Gyrobee.

My plans are to make minor changes and nothing that affects the aircrafts safety. It may end up being no changes but I need to explore the possibility. I want to also enhance the plans to a more readable 3D view, nothing that violates copywrites.

One of the tools I would like to try is AutoCAD Inventor. That tool and some specific avionics add-ons allows me to simulate performance changes. It is a great tool to complete initial tests on any proposed changes before anyone spends money or risks their life on untested enhancements.

Please believe me, I am all about safety. I put safety above all else. I read every crash report I can find. I read them as a learning tool to understand what can go wrong.

The tail is one part of the Gyrobee I am looking closely at. I believe there are a number of other areas that can have minor changes that will reduce weight. With reduced weight it opens up the design to add other enhancements like braking systems, better suspension system larger engines and more.

One thing I really could use is AutoCAD files of the Gyrobee. I have started them but I have limited time with 50+ hour work weeks. So if anyone has the Gyrobee plans in AutoCAD, any version I would appreciate it.

The goal is to make the Gyrobee a better performing Gyrocopter and most importantly safer.
 
"He said the aircraft would have a lesser performance capability if the HS was placed in the center of the prop-wash. In fact he has shown me drawings and calculations that clearly show and prove what he is saying."

Would you mind posting some of this information for others to review as well?
 
"He said the aircraft would have a lesser performance capability if the HS was placed in the center of the prop-wash. In fact he has shown me drawings and calculations that clearly show and prove what he is saying."

Would you mind posting some of this information for others to review as well?

I would like to see this too.
 
tail

tail

i agree that you can reduce the weight by makeing different tail ,i build tail out of almost everythink metal (10 lbs),composite(15 lbs) but the lightest is the wood my current tail with three coats of varnish and all metal fittings weight 7.5 lbs ,its sandwich of wood,styrofoam and plywood 1mm thick regular frame is 1/2 x 3/4 like minimax style but it has foam core to support the plywood,its pretty strong the pictures are fwe weeks old since that the tail is mounted on my frame ill post picture when i get to hanger ,the end plates arenot installed,the vertical tail include rudder has 7,5 sq/f,the hs has 6sq/f ,the vs and rudder are 5/8" o.a. thick the hs is 7/16" o.a. thick the horizontal tail has -2 degrees incidence and is mounted 10" from bottom of vertical tail ,the whole rudder is mounted useing two angles pop riveted to keel one angle on each side and horizontal tail has strut on each side which is 1/2x0.058 tube
 

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Hi Bill

This friend that states the gyro would have "lesser " performance if the HS is in the prop wash than if it were outside the prop wash. Performance is the "sticky" term here, if he is referring to having less influence from forward motion air flow then he is quite right as the prop blast will overpower outside airflow (which by the way I used to think was bad but finally understood why it was better in the prop blast). I would however wonder if he is viewing this from more of a fixed wing position than from a gyro design position. In a pusher design gyro the desired actions are a little different.

Tony
 
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Gyrobee Aerodynamics

Gyrobee Aerodynamics

My friend the avionic engineer is very experienced with rotor craft. While he admits he is less experienced with Gyrocopters, what he has shown me so far has been very impressive. My field is in electronics and computers where I am working of a LCD Avionics console display I plan to use on my project.

I am afraid my Gryo interest is an obsession. I plan on completing detailed drafts detailing the specific aerodynamics characteristics and overall flight capabilities. By doing so I hope to uncover areas that it may be possible to enhance the Gyrobee’s design. Again safety will be first. After all I plan to have my butt in the seat and my life on the line.

My friend is joining me again the first of next month, being retired for a while my project has peaked his interest. I have to say he is very intelligent and educated in aerodynamics. We will be helping me detailing every aspect of Gyrobee. I will share the results with anyone who is interested. I do need to chat with Mr. Taggert and talk about any redrawing of his plans we may want to share. We do not plan on any changes just better detailing them.

The redrafting will be done in AutoCAD Inventor. This along with a couple of specific add-ons will allow us to simulate and prove all performance detail we derive. It may all seem a bit overkill but it’s my nature. Anyone who may have Gyrobee plans in AutoCAD or know where I can obtain them in AutoCAD format please contact me. It will help get my project off the ground much sooner.
 
Bill: I'm not sure what "performance" measure we're really discussing here. Are we talking about the power of the tail itself or the liveliness of the gyro's performance (climb rate, top speed, etc.)?

A pusher gyro (or pusher airplane, for that matter) is stuck with a short tail arm. For a given number of pounds of force created by the tail feathers, the actual moment on the aircraft becomes less and less as the tail arm gets shorter.

To combat this problem, one can make the tail feathers larger, of course. At some point, this tactic become impractical.

An additional problem specific to gyro tail feathers is that the aircraft can be operated at low-to-zero airspeeds. No matter how big your tail feathers, they will not generate any forces at zero airspeed. Yet, a gyro with any amount of high thrustline (HTL) must have horizontal surfaces that can generate stabilizing moments on the frame at zero MPH. Since we don't have a tail rotor, we also need vertical control surfaces that still work at zero MPH.

The normal solution to these problems is to immerse the tail in the propwash. You can see this tactic employed on pusher amphibs such as the Aircar/Seabee, Lake Amphib and many others, not to mention the original pusher gyro, the Buhl Autogiro of the 1930's.

It's not really a question of what provides the aircraft with the hottest performance. Rather, it's what will keep it from being unstable and/or uncontrollable at low speeds. Tail immersion is not a performance-enhancer, it's a matter of survival.

If OTOH the issue is that the propwash supposedly "overwhelms" the freestream flow and continues to blow in the same direction over the tail, no matter what direction the freestream flow comes from, this is simply untrue. The propwash direction is profoundly influenced by the orientation of the flow INTO the prop disk. The propwash moves around as the inflow does. This fact has been discussed extensively here in the past. It can easily be proven by using a pair of electric fans with yarn tufts tied to their grilles.
 
Doug Riley :
Now my gyro-bee flies great with the tail that I have installed "BUT" I do have problems getting enough left pedal some times. I have thought about adding a Trim tab to help out a little but hate to add it to the tail I have now, it is a pain to keep the air bubbles from popping up!:boom::painkiller:

I have been taking to a few people about a tall tail. I have parts of plans from this and that tail. But looks like I am going to need a machine to do my shaping work on the inter-parts I need to build.:D
 

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Pedal limit?

Pedal limit?

Doug,

Is the limit when turning? Does it mean it does tighter right turns or is it torque compensation?
 
doggy, a trim tab only centers the rudder in the air so you can take your feet off the pedals without any yaw! my tail is cocked to the right to counter torque and p-factor! a complete idiot could fly my gyro if he knew how to spin up the rotors without flapping :)

Doug Riley :
Now my gyro-bee flies great with the tail that I have installed "BUT" I do have problems getting enough left pedal some times. I have thought about adding a Trim tab to help out a little but hate to add it to the tail I have now, it is a pain to keep the air bubbles from popping up!:boom::painkiller:

I have been taking to a few people about a tall tail. I have parts of plans from this and that tail. But looks like I am going to need a machine to do my shaping work on the inter-parts I need to build.:D
 
I had to mash the left pedal to the stop on my Watson 'Bee on takeoff, especially slow takeoffs. Used to give me leg cramps. The solution is either more vertical tail area or a tall tail.

A trim tab eliminates the need to hold pedal pressure constantly. It doesn't make the rudder any more powerful, however.

Many rudder designers neglect to include servo area. Servo area is area or "tab" ahead of the hinge. It reduces pedal pressures. Bensen's tail designs included it, but many copies don't.
 
jany77 :
Hey where are the close up pictures you were going to post? Almost been a month now!:tape:
 
tail

tail

you will have to wait a bit i have small side job which takeing all my free time( im saveing money for some gyro pieces) ,ill try asap but cant promise any date
 
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