WHat Happened to our MAGAZINE???

...I would hope that you and Paul will some how get together and share stories to be published in both worlds.

Would you object to the PRA paying to have an add and info like other advertisers?

Roger, my understanding may not match Roy's, so perhaps he'll comment, but my expectation is that if there is common content, it will generally be the result of contributors providing similar material to both, not direct collaboration. Remember, there are aspects, such as ad sales, in which the two media will be competing. For similar reasons, NBC and The New York Times don't typically work together. (No matter what Fox News says. ;))

I have suggested to the PRA board that there may be times when an ad in PSF should be considered, especially once the delivery schedule finds its rhythm, and when the earlier deadlines for a paper magazine can be met.
 
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I am saying that back in the 1960's - early 1990's, people were different. The hobby was different too. Perhaps Chuck Beaty of any of the " Older " guys on there could chime in as to how things are different now than in the past and why..............................
....

Bottom line is sport aviation in general at the lower levels has been on the decline, no matter if the wings are fixed, or they spin.... The only thing that is on the upswing is the more pricey stuff like Vans RV's or the import LSA stuff, etc... Even in gyros, the expensive import stuff like Magni's and Xenons and the like are about the only ones doing real good these days.

All of this is not the fault of the PRA or decisions the board made years and years ago to purchase a small rural airstrip or to cancel a TV show that cost too much to put on.

Perhaps the money could have been used to promote "cheap flying" aka Bensen or Brock type machines.
Instead the expencive stuff was promoted with the result as described,"expencive import stuff are about the only ones doing real good".
You can toss around as much as you like,in the end it all boils down to money.

In the "old days",flying a gyro was a hobby affordable to almost "everyone",today it becomes more and more the hobby of the happy few.

If the PRA want's the support of "Joe Average" than perhaps they should find out who Joe Average is and what he has to do to save some nickels for his hobby.
There are only a few options,or you promote gyro flying as an elite sport,or you try to make it affordable for the "crowd".
Right now it seems to tend more towards the first.
I've seen discussions here about a 20,000US$ engine for use on a gyro and one is wondering why the interest is in decline ?

I don't think that there's much difference between the "old days" and today regarding the desire of people to fly a plane or gyro themselves.

Perhaps it was more affordable for a greater public in the old days,I don't know.
 
Hi Bud,

I'm not sure what description you are referring to. Paul described Scott as a "bull in a china shop," not me.

The internet has changed one thing for sure. In the past, there was very little non-filtered interaction between pilots until the summer fly-in season came along. Now people are able to "pound the keys" and communicate immediately with each other. I'm not sure that is good or bad in itself, but it is the way things are.

Roy
http://www.psfradio.com
http://www.psfmagazine.com

Sorry Roy, I did'nt read long enough before "pounding keys" But that bull gets things done!
 
Living in fast times. 2010

Living in fast times. 2010

Mark you need to open your eyes and do some reading.

Educate yourself with facts instead of "feelings".

The reason I am jumping in your post here is because you embody everything that was and is wrong with the PRA.

Ron,


Been to Mentone three times, and Bensen days once. I've liked all the members I had the luck to have met.

And this makes you a professional about PRA history because of what ?


While I don't get to attend Mentone every year, I do see the advantage of having an airport the organization can meet at which doesn't arbitrarily restrict, outlaw, or force gyro pilots to sign liability waivers to fly there.

Mark, Following your theory we should have to buy General Motors or Ford, THE ENTIRE CAR COMPANY, because we want to be able to drive one vehicle, once a year. AND you WILL NOT OWN IT, YOU WILL PAY FOR IT BUT SOME OTHER GROUP WILL ACTUALLY OWN IT AND ENJOY ALL THE BENEFITS OF OWNERSHIP YEAR ROUND. YOU ONLY GET TO ENJOY IT ONE DAY OUT OF THE YEAR Oh and I almost forgot, you can only drive it in Mentone. Sounds like a great deal. Additionally if pilots that flew at such events were. Polite, Professional, Respectful, AND Safe. No airport authority would be looking to ban you ! Having a dumb stupid mouth, hot dogging like a silly jackass and splattering yourself like some rank amateur all over the tarmac gets you an invitation to leave....Hence the fake need to have an airport you wont be banned from.

Case in point: our Shelbyville fly-in, which has been ongoing for 29 years, was forced to have every pilot sign a liability waiver this year. That was due to a change in the board president. Not sure whether we're going to be able to continue there next year. And it was quite a damper to be threatened with legal action by not signing the waivers.

What year are you living in ? People sue over spilled cups of coffee. Waivers may help some situations but You cannot rent a car at an airport without signing a waiver, you cant rent a 2 dollar video without a waiver. Whats the fuss ?

Watched Scott in action at Bensen days, and he was almost fanatical about making sure everything was done right, and that the visitors felt welcome, and were comfortable there. While Scott may not be perfect, he's doing things that, in my mind, will eventually make the PRA a stronger and better organization for all of us. Just because I don't agree with everything he does, doesn't make him a bad board member.

Bensen Days as it was explained some times ago IS NOT THE PRA. It is put on by the Sunstate Rotor Club. It is no more PRA than EAA is involved with SUn n FUN. If you do not understand what I just wrote do some reading and EDUCATE YOURSELF ! .

Yes, I'll miss a hard magazine. But, in the big picture, I understand that my membership fee is not about the subscription, it's about promoting gyros to others who haven't yet been exposed to the sport, or for a knowledge base for those just getting into the sport.


Well Mark, I guess you have never given an old issue of the magazine to someone. At least in the future you wont be able to... A professionally clad magazine looks a lot better than some consumer print offs from an overpriced ink cartridge..


I do feel badly about the situation with Roy. I thorougly enjoyed the PSF magazine, and know Roy from his attending some of our club meetings. The magazine thing does seem to be a personality conflict between Scott and Roy, but at the end of the day, I still respect both of them for doing something to promote our sport. It would be nice if they did work things out personally.

Lets call it what it is. AGAIN. The PRA was looking for something for nothing. Hence, Roy will not be doing any "FREE" advertising. Roy has just gotten wise to the PRA and how it uses people up and then moves on to the next well intentioned fool. People who always ask for something for free and do not want to pay for it are soon excluded from things, they are also called "freeloaders".


Being chump change in the FAA's eyes, I really don't expect the PRA to be very influential with them. A special thanks is necessary to Greg G, who goes to great frustrating lengths to try to reason with them.

Again, you underestimate the small number of individuals within the large number of special interest groups that lobby the government and its agencies for changes or additions to its rules. Learn something about YOUR GOVERNMENT ! and how it works...


And for all the people on here who bitch about the $50, if you can't afford that, you shouldn't be flying, plain and simple. We have guys in our club who gripe about the $15 annual membership fee, and why we can't give them a credit if they join after January! It's friggin $15, not $1500!!!!!!!!!!!

Mark, I would spend 150.00 if the org was actually dedicated to doing something....other than promoting and preserving an airport for a small number of individuals.

I will continue to support the PRA with my membership fee as long as I fly. I look at it as investment in some future gyro pilot's flying career, just as all the PRA members ahead of me who paid their dues did, so I had the resources the PRA did provide for me.

What "resources" ?

As far as Jonathan goes, he's permanently on my ignore list. Anyone who isn't paying dues to the PRA has no voice with me regarding the PRA.

Yes Mark, Ignore people that do not align with your very shallow and narrow views about things. It is exactly the brainwashed, ignorant people like you that have allowed things to be the way they are and why the PRA for over 10 years continues to spiral downward.

.

Jonathan
 
You hold the secret Bud...

You hold the secret Bud...

Bud, You have been around since Moses wore sneakers. Why was the PRA so much better back in the day before they owned an airport and why did they have so many members ?

Roy,
To bad that all but two of the past presidents are gone,the next to the past will disagree with your discription of Scott. He is a"bull" in a china shop but has the skills to make things better.What we need is more people with Scotts skills and determition to make the pra a better organization.
I believe that the internet has done a lot to destroy what we had at one time,not all by any means but a lot. To easy to set here and pound the keys and get rilled up about what has happened in the past. We tend to forget the future and what we need to be.
And yes before any one says it I am one of the "old farts" who don't fly any more but still hold the pra in great esteem,and the present leaders also.
 
Jonathan, you are brain washed.... it is that simple. You had no problem with the PRA, you had no problem with the PRA owning a airport, you had no problem with any of this until Maxie Wildes started a big mess over the " ownership " of the airport.

You being the type to believe that things are never what they seem are quick to believe in the worse of what Maxie was accusing the PRA of.

What I don't understand is how you can be so matter of fact about your opinion of this whole airport issue, without ever going to the airport.

And tell me, have you ever called and talked to Gary Goldsberry about the airport? If not then why not? Isn't it fair to hear what he has to say?

At Wrens last weekend, Someone said... " Oh Yeah, Jonathans not coming... he is upset that no one called to check on him after the hurricane, so he isn't coming" Well newsflash Jonathan, no one called cause your Fing crazy and way out there with your beliefs. I like you, but your so hardheaded and close minded.

I believed in what Maxie lead me to believe too... I would have been right beside you in the " I hate the PRA I hate the Mentone airport I think were being screwed by a select few " agenda you have. The difference between me and you is I won't take that strong of a stand on anything without really looking at both sides and all angles, and investigating things for myself. I spoke with Gary, Glenn, Prater, Hunn, and several other long time board members, privately, and asked them about the airport and the purchase and the separate board and so on. After speaking with them and seeing how all of this operates first hand with my own eyes after going to Mentone, I am satisfied that there no wrong doing going on. What urks me about you is you just let Maxie brainwash you into thinking the worse and you have closed your mind.
 
I'm betting a lot of PRA members initially joined for a nice printed magazine - for the guys that don't fly it's really the only benefit they see, and I wonder what the ratio of them to active pilots are.

For the members outside the US that's also the case.

The magazine quality has been on the decline for years - that's part of the membership problem IMO. Cutting it even further in the form of a digital edition, with the printed version being even smaller plus black & white won't help.

Saving money while losing members even faster isn't a good tradeoff, hopefully for the PRA's sake I'm wrong.
 
Newsflash....

The pra is not cancelling a paper magazine.

If you renew your dues at the same rate as it has been 49.99$ you will get a paper version of the online magazine. If you want to save money, for 42.00$ you will just get the online version.

So you can still get a paper magazine, so why are all you guys crying about your paper magazine.
 
Roger, my understanding may not match Roy's, so perhaps he'll comment, but my expectation is that if there is common content, it will generally be the result of contributors providing similar material to both, not direct collaboration. Remember, there are aspects, such as ad sales, in which the two media will be competing. For similar reasons, NBC and The New York Times don't typically work together. (No matter what Fox News says. ;))
Paul
This makes sense.
I would not expect a direct collaboration.

I have suggested to the PRA board that there may be times when an ad in PSF should be considered, especially once the delivery schedule finds its rhythm, and when the earlier deadlines for a paper magazine can be met.
This is also good to hear.
Thanks
 
What the PRA Board is suggesting is that I print out from my pc what I would consider a flyer, not a magazine should I want a hard copy. I liked the concept of the blending of technologies with the other group. There is true growth potential with this blending.

For me, I would not feel comfortable paying more than $30 annually to the PRA for a membership without a legitimate published magazine.

For those who cannot utilize the Mentone facility, what else is there for justification of money spent? Each PRA chapter charges an annual membership. If the requirement is also to join the PRA for $50 annually, well, now you are approaching $75-$100 annual "donation" for comradely?

Now, I do believe in supporting the Mentone facility and feel the 2010 event with the blended groups should continue.

I also feel the life member concept should be dropped and replaced with a highly discounted annual rate. These members might not be flying anymore, yet they still want to belong....
 
What the PRA Board is suggesting is that I print out from my pc what I would consider a flyer, not a magazine should I want a hard copy. I liked the concept of the blending of technologies with the other group. There is true growth potential with this blending.

For me, I would not feel comfortable paying more than $30 annually to the PRA for a membership without a legitimate published magazine.

For those who cannot utilize the Mentone facility, what else is there for justification of money spent? Each PRA chapter charges an annual membership. If the requirement is also to join the PRA for $50 annually, well, now you are approaching $75-$100 annual "donation" for comradely?

Now, I do believe in supporting the Mentone facility and feel the 2010 event with the blended groups should continue.

I also feel the life member concept should be dropped and replaced with a highly discounted annual rate. These members might not be flying anymore, yet they still want to belong....

What you said is exactly why there is a problem. Your implying that the PRA should be a magazine subscription, because without it there is no good reason to be a member. That is the problem, and not sure why or how folks can't understand it, How do you publish a magazine for only 1200 people at a affordable rate?

At the rate we were paying we would have been broke in less than a years time.

Greg G suggests we put all of our assets on the line to borrow money to continue to publish a magazine. What then when our numbers are still low and we still end up broke. Now were broke and we have nothing.

The problem is people don't want a magazine, or at least I believe people don't want to pay 50 bucks a year for a magazine, not when you can get everything and more the magazine offers for free off the internet.

Thats the bottom line. It is the reason alot of people aren't members... why spend the money when the magazine is not worth it to those people. When you can get the same or better info on a daily basis for free right here on this forum.

So less need or desire for the magazine equals less members. Less members means less money. Less money means we can't afford to publish a magazine. It's that simple.

Somewhere someone has to draw a line in the sand and say enough is enough, and let's try a different approach. Thats what the Board has done with stopping the traditional paper magazine and going digital.

They decided that they need to spend what moneys they still have coming in on better benifits to the members. Things have not been announced but I have heard rumors of things in the pipeline and sounds like some really cool things coming soon.

If the PRA was nothing more than a magazine subscription for you then sorry, you missed the whole point of why the PRA exists.
 
BINGO

Ron you managed to sum up the exact situation very clearly.

.
 
YES You hit the nail on the head!

YES You hit the nail on the head!

Ron, I agree with your observation and comments,,,,,,,makes sence.
 
Ok.....I get it. People don't want to pay $50/yr for the magazine for what they can get here and other places on the internet in a more timely mannor. The cost is too high and not enough left over to support the airport and other things.....with having a tax free status I suppose the PRA is very limited as to how the airport can be used to support itself to generate a positive cash flow. So, that gets us to the "other benifits". I suppose many, like me are waiting to see what it is. It is a very tough thing to do...to have people open their billfolds and give money willingly in these times...
 
I totally agree also with Rons post. I was one of the magazine holdouts.......but listening to the numbers....and listening to others....I slowly became convinced that maybe I will just have to get with it....even though I am on the computer anyway a lot.

Some of the other posts in this thread are so far out and ludicrous...I will let them fall on their own folly.


Stan
 
Honesty and questions.

Honesty and questions.

You forget how much I know.

Jonathan, you are brain washed.... it is that simple. You had no problem with the PRA, you had no problem with the PRA owning a airport, you had no problem with any of this until Maxie Wildes started a big mess over the " ownership " of the airport.

Ron, I know what the deal was even before Maxie was making noise. The noise started when there was "no money" to do what the PRA's mission statement was. The mess started when advertisers started jumping ship because of the way they were and ARE treated. I wonder how all the advertisers that have spent money with PRA to ADVERTISE this year FEEL about the new e-zine. ? Anyone asking for refunds ?

Board members and the president LIED to us. Maxie, a life member BTW was one of several that wanted to see if the truth was being told. It took TWO YEARS and heaps o trouble for Gary to come clean and produce paperwork" Then the argument changed when egg was on certain peoples faces......



You being the type to believe that things are never what they seem are quick to believe in the worse of what Maxie was accusing the PRA of.

What I don't understand is how you can be so matter of fact about your opinion of this whole airport issue, without ever going to the airport.

And tell me, have you ever called and talked to Gary Goldsberry about the airport? If not then why not? Isn't it fair to hear what he has to say?

At Wrens last weekend, Someone said... " Oh Yeah, Jonathans not coming... he is upset that no one called to check on him after the hurricane, so he isn't coming" Well newsflash Jonathan, no one called cause your Fing crazy and way out there with your beliefs. I like you, but your so hardheaded and close minded.

Ron, with SELF CENTERED "friends" like you one does not need any friends. I showed up anyway. Complaint was "tongue in cheek". But it was noted. I know people are busy but a phone call or an email costs what ?

I know you are educationally challenged and maybe it takes the amount of education to "believe" what you are being told. But here are the facts from someone living in the real world.

Fact: The boards and your excuse for having to purchase an airport was that regardless of which end is up that money would be wasted because they would have been paying rent. First of all anyone that is paying 1000 or 1500 a month for an office is a total ASS. That is Fng retarded ! Or they are milking an organization for personal benefit. You could run the PRA out of someones home office, or a tool shed. Better yet here in our neck of the woods you could rent an out of the way office for 150 to 200 bucks a month.

Fact: Membership was MISLED and deliberately LIED TO.

Fact: PRA mission statement said nothing about an airport.

Fact: there are thousands of other airports around the country that can hold an event. our own ROC is proof that you can move a fly in to another location.

Fact: I was privy to or rather innocently overheard a private conversation that would be very damaging to the future of the PRA between Gary and another board member that I would never repeat here. I heard that with my own ears and I know they were not making it up for my entertainment.

Fact: I believe what people DO. I hope people follow through on what they SAY but the PRA has been all hot air for 10 years. Our small eaa1171.org chapter does more each and every year to help young ones with aviation than the entire "international" PRA.


Fact: You want to paint me as some kind of kook or tinfoil conspiracy nut about things that are very real. One excuse for having to purchase the airport was said that "gyros might get banned from all airports" . That whopper told me one thing. People who point fingers at "conspiracy nuts" need an extra dose of whatever medication they SHOULD be on. Because if gyros were to ever get banned or not allowed to fly YOUR whole list of troubles would be a lot larger than being unable to drag your junk to an airport in the middle of nowhere so you could fly...


I believed in what Maxie lead me to believe too... I would have been right beside you in the " I hate the PRA I hate the Mentone airport I think were being screwed by a select few " agenda you have. The difference between me and you is I won't take that strong of a stand on anything without really looking at both sides and all angles, and investigating things for myself. I spoke with Gary, Glenn, Prater, Hunn, and several other long time board members, privately, and asked them about the airport and the purchase and the separate board and so on. After speaking with them and seeing how all of this operates first hand with my own eyes after going to Mentone, I am satisfied that there no wrong doing going on. What urks me about you is you just let Maxie brainwash you into thinking the worse and you have closed your mind.

Ron, If things had been done above board, if paperwork was produced before the s-storm started. If the dollars and cents of it was produced to membership BEFORE the programs started to go bye bye. Then yes I would be more inclined to accept the status quo. I will not however jump ship now just because they do so after the fact. What was done was underhanded, sneaky and dishonest. I have no raving need for approval from the rotor craft community or so called "friends". I am open to all suggestions and how the situation came about but I will not be lied to and then be told it was for my own good. End of story.
 
Powered Sport Flying magazine: ROY

Powered Sport Flying magazine: ROY

Roy: Hoping you'll still be here to answer my questions...

I enjoy your URS and listen to many of your broadcasts.

I used to take Ultraflight magazine years ago. It was nice reading about PPCs, PPGs, and trikes.

When I got my first copy of PSF this late spring, I was surprised how much better it was than UM was, especially the photos.

I miss getting PSF and want to subscribe. I used to pass my copy onto a guy at work that has two trikes and two gyros to read. The photos were spectacular, as well as the articles. I even enjoyed reading the display and classified ads.

If I did subscribe, would I be getting a magazine each month?

Did all other subscribers not receive their magazines from June onward? Was it only the PRA members that didn't? Why wasn't the monthly scheduled publishing followed?

I met a fellow at the recent El Mirage event. Forgot his name, but he was snapping photos left and right. He said he is the west coast photo guy for PSF. Can you connect me with him? I'm interested in seeing his photos and possibly purchasiing some.

Thanks, Roy,

Kevin
 
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Guys, these choices will get clearer if you read the first couple issues of the e-zine.

As PRA has tried to cut expenditures through days of declining membership and revenue, a priority was placed on maintaining the paper magazine, and almost everything else was sacrificed. It should be no surprise if the 1200 or so PRA members left are mostly the ones who shared that priority, and are upset now.

There may also be at least that many former members, or potential new members, who value all those other things PRA could be doing, like CFI scholarships, a professional web presence, and better promotion of chapters and sharing between them.

Unless you're the US Congress or a counterfeiter, (apologies to those who find that redundant,) an organization with no surplus can't spend money for a new program without eliminating some other expenditure. By spring, PRA will have re-established itself as an organization which offers members a chance to spend less than the cost of flying a two-place gyro for an hour on a year's worth of incremental progress in the sport.

In about 60 days from now, there will finally be a new website which offers paid members access to a half-century of PRA reference material and other exclusive benefits. We'll see how many people are left out there who find that worth $42.

To the extent that a lack of communication from the top in recent years (and in some cases a reliance on volunteers who got in over their heads) has lots of members crossing their arms and waiting to see it first, there may be a dip in membership levels before we get through his tunnel. Fortunately, communication problems are really cheap (if not always easy) to solve.

And the best news is, no matter what else happens, Roy believes there's a business case in offering rotorcraft-related content in a traditional, commercial magazine, so you'll now have a choice to pay for the traditional benefits of PRA a la carte.
 
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