Tim Verroi demos his G-force landing gear at Bensen Days 2008

Training with new set of features should not be considered showing off.
If you don´t adapt to the G-Force you can´t use it right when it is needed.
It is a different approach and landing all together!
Enough for sour grapes . . .go buy one and have an airgasm . . .
Heron
 
Ron,

No as a general rule I dont do cross countrys. But why do you care. I am a quick fix flyer. 20 to 30 min adrenalin fixes. So whats so wrong with that. I dont really have any cross country places to fly to for any reason so why just do one. I'd be interested to know just how many of us do cross countrys every time we get in our gyro. I'd bet that most of us just fly around our area for a quick flight.

Who will agree with me and get Ron off my back about this cross country stuff.

Friendly

Glad you like my new Butterfly. It is everything Ive ever wanted in a Gyro. Hope you get to experience one in flight one day.

Heron,

Amen to the adapting part of the G Force landing gear. In the first three hrs of flight I almost turned it over 5 times. It definatly takes getting used to. But once learned theres no going back from whence you came. ie....flying a Dominator instead!
 
Hey Tim, How's this for an idea? Since you also have an airplane you could relocate one of your gyros to an airport with better flying terrain around it than yours. Then you can fly your airplane there and take your gyro on flights away from the airport. How's that sound?
 
I'll help out Tim.
I agree a good majority are blappin laps and doing the odd 20-25 minutes out of circuit stuff in a designated training area, then back again.

I flew my first 'cross country' at 6 hrs solo 25 miles there and same back and went to 2400'. Later I flew across the Tamar River and over my house then back again.

BUT 95% of all my flying is around the home paddock (local strip).

Now at 40 hrs I'm putting a 582 on so I can go further with a tad more confidence. And keep up with my ole mate Nugde who flys an XAir with 618 rotax.

Again, I dont want to start butting heads with Ron, but his memory is a worry. Way back GFLG was a gimmick and Doms already had the ducks nuts with what Ron said was 'drop and stop' suspension. So why would you want GFLG then anyway.

Tim's right...why do you care anyway Ron? This is Tims deal with GFLG and his excitement and ours is diminished by this continual discussion about Dominator Vs Butterfly and how Tango Victor does or does not fly, or why.

Let's agree Dominators and Monarchs ROCK!

Mitch.
 
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Tim Chick

It is a great idea. Mike Bantum said that I could leave the Dominator at his place and fly down and do the florida fields with him anytime I wanted.

I must admit the more i fly the Dominator the more I think I might be jumping the gun selling it so quickly. But if one must go it will be the Dominator. I quess I just really need to determine if one must go.

Greg

We have an accord!
 
Ron,

No as a general rule I dont do cross countrys. But why do you care. I am a quick fix flyer. 20 to 30 min adrenalin fixes. So whats so wrong with that. I dont really have any cross country places to fly to for any reason so why just do one. I'd be interested to know just how many of us do cross countrys every time we get in our gyro. I'd bet that most of us just fly around our area for a quick flight.

Who will agree with me and get Ron off my back about this cross country stuff.

Friendly

Glad you like my new Butterfly. It is everything Ive ever wanted in a Gyro. Hope you get to experience one in flight one day.

Heron,

Amen to the adapting part of the G Force landing gear. In the first three hrs of flight I almost turned it over 5 times. It definatly takes getting used to. But once learned theres no going back from whence you came. ie....flying a Dominator instead!

Tim, to be honest with ya regarding cross country flyin, I consistently fly 60+ miles at a time out over the great plains of Indiana. I especially enjoy going with my buddy Nick Costa. Yet I also spend a lot of time over the runway. I think that as long as you enjoy flying that is all that matters. I cannot think of many people that come back after flying with a bigger smile than you do. There is only one reason we fly, that is because we enjoy it... and that is the only one you need.
 
You know Greg, I have known Tim since 2001. And have flown at Bensen Days and Rotors over Carolina fly-ins every year with him since 2001. What he is not saying is how I and others in our group have asked him repeatedly to fly with us to one place or another at these fly-ins and he would reply that he doesn't do cross country flights in his gyros.

Yes my memmory is starting to slip apparently and I forgot he flew to Sebring last year at Bensen Days 07.

And yes, you and Tim are right... it is non of my business how he flys.

My point of it all was to counter what you percieved as Tims decision to sell his Dominator over his Monarch as Tims decision that the Monarch was the superior gyro. In another thread you beat around the bush, but basically said just that. My point was that I think I know Tim better than you, and my take on the whole thing was that Tim is just having fun with the G force gear and the stop and drop landings it allows, that otherwise, if the Monarch had regular gear on it I believe he would much rather have the Dominator. I believe - or believed really - that Tim would get bored with the stop and drop landings and see that his Dominator out performs the Monarch and has a safer engine to boot and he would keep the Dominator in the end.

And in the end it is just a waste of your time to read this, Tims time to read this, my time to write it, and forum bandwidth, because in the end it doesn't really matter what I think because like I said above, it is none of my business in the first place, and to me it really honestly doesn't matter what you or Tim or anyone else thinks about any of this, as far as what gyro is better or what gyro Tims keeps or sells or whether Tim will fly cross country or not and so on....

So as far as Tim goes I am done discussing Tim.

Again, I dont want to start butting heads with Ron, but his memory is a worry. Way back GFLG was a gimmick and Doms already had the ducks nuts with what Ron said was 'drop and stop' suspension. So why would you want GFLG then anyway.

The GFLG is a gimmick. There is only very extremely rare circumstances in real world flight where the G force gear would be critical to a safe landing. Elsewise it is a gimmick to have fun with, either by showing off cool looking landings to other pilots or just for flying by yourself and making yourself smile at how your doing landings that would hurt a normal gyro. The G force gear is absolutely heavier and far more drag than regular gear, and these Cons I think outweight the Pros as far as really needing the G force gear in a true emergency landing. Elsewise it is mainly a Gimmick, and back when it first came out it was NOT a suspension that offered a smooth ride and cushioned ride for taxi and takeoff, but was touted as one anyway, and that was the reasoning for my posts a year or two ago about the G force, was that it WASN'T a true Suspension....

Now it appears Larry has added a coil over shock inside the G force gear leg and now you have both the G force stop and drop, and a smooth ride once on the ground. And because of that I think the G force gear is now a very good thing, and probably the best suspension option on the market. Certainly better than what Ernie has on the Dominator.

Why would I want G force gear? Same Reason Tim Verroi likes the G force gear on his gyro.
 
Matt,

I vote for you as President!

Ron,

Your still my good friend and confidant! Have we really been flying together since 2001?
 
Ron, How far is the Sebring cross country. I am interested in what the other 582s are doing.
Tim
have you thought about swapping engines? 4 stroke the fly and destroke the dom.
Also what happened to cause you to think it might turn over when you were learning to operate the gforce. I have a friend building a Butterfly right now.
 
30 miles each way. On the 17th there is a fly-in Barry and I are going to that is 100 miles away, each way. We flew our gyros there last year.
 
If and when I do manage to get a gyro back to Kenya which is my intention, then the latest gear Larry is doing would be a high priority. Long cross country's over African bush and a gear like that is going to give some definite peace of mind.
 
Better have it than don´t.
Disagree on the rock thing . . .Monarchs rock and roll Dominators only rock.
I wish we could test them side by side without the features, just plain machines, I think they will match each other and maybe a little advantage for the tall tail.
Ron needs to know the rules of debate, we always debang issues and try to stick them to you . . .how rude of you Habib!
Heron :D
 
Friendly,

I was just unschooled in the art of landing this paticular gear. Flaring way to nose high so at touch down my attitude was way exagerated to the high side. There the scare begins and the over controlling insued where by i almost and I mean really almost turned that baby over. Scared me way bad, but I kep at it. I finally after struggleing for 3 to 4 hrs got a friend with a radio to watch and radio to me what he was seeing. Once he told me that my angle of attack was the problem I just flattened that baby out on my next flare and almost instantainiously the wierd sensations I was getting on landing disappeared and the joy began. Just another 4 or 5 landings and I was in the groove. i've never looked back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Butterflys or Bust!!!!
 
Hey Ron,

Perception and memory, two things that neeed work.

Where have I ever said Monarch was better than Dominator? I have never claimed such a thing.

I dont believe I ever used the word SUSPENSION, I thought I only ever used the words G Force Landing Gear..GFLG. I recollect you and some of your colleages used this arguement to support some of your claims about the GFLG. If I am wrong please paste so I can address my memory loss.

Tim is your very good friend and I dont presume to know how he or you think or whether he loves his Butterfly more than his Dominator or not. I dont care.

All I care about is getting the facts right and this is where you and I have banged heads. You named the wrong shock in GFLG initially. You claimed easy to back engineer. (where is it?) You claimed Tim was getting rid of the Monarch. You claimed I was a Paul Hogan wannabe, when in fact I always wanted to be SpiderMan. You claim I said this and that and all I do is post about Butterfly product with no claims as to their being the best of the best. Shi t! Everything is a competition with you Ron and yes I do 'jarr' up just like you do.

Oh and if GFLG is a GIMMICK, then I guess the same could be saidof the Dominators STOP and DROP landing gear for exactly the same reasons you claim GFLG is a GIMMICK. Have you posted anything to that effect yet, I doubt it.

Anyway, again, I am glad you now want a fully suspensionised form of GFLG even if you see it as a GIMMICK.

Autogiros used to land like GFLG Monarch equipped gyros land, so Cierva designed the first gyros with gimmicky landing gear. Did I read that somehwere in the history books or in one of you posts somewhere Ron?

Tim I'm glad we have an accord. I especially enjoyed reading about your flying your Dominator over the marsh country the other morning and enjoying it so much. MORE POWER TO YOU!

Mitch.
 
Mitch, you may have never said a Monarch or Butterfly was better than a Dominator... but you certainly have made comments that would suggest that. For example some of your comments about Tim wanting to sell his Dominator, suggesting that he was doing so because of the gyros in his " fleet " the Dominator was subpar to his Monarch.

You may have never called the G force gear " Suspension " ...... But when it first made news a year or two ago ( maybe longer ago, I don't honestly remember how long it has been around ) People in general were discussing the GFLG as if it WAS a suspension system. And until whenever it was that Larry decided to add a coil over shock inside the GFLG it was NOT a true suspension. The fact that the old version of the GFLG was not a suspension was not a big deal to me, I just discussed it so as to make sure everyone was clear there is a difference between the old version GFLG and a true suspension like the Dominator offers.

I was told firsthand by either Iven C, or Chris Wilson that the GFLG shock was a MONROE SENSITRAC GAS SHOCK, modified into the GFLG strut. I believed what I was told as both have had personal contact with Larry, especially Chris. ( Ironically it was one of those two guys, Chris I am pretty sure, who told me that Larry asked them SPECIFICALLY Not to let me fly his Monarch.... pretty crappy if you ask me, what a better way to show someone how good your product is than to let them experience it themselves. Oh well )

And yes, for someone with a good machine shop, reverse engineering the GFLG shouldn't be too hard. And before you come at me with comments about " stealing " Larrys ideas, take a look at any gyro.... Almost all are a reverse engineered version of a Bensen.

And yes, Tim told me several times he was very Serious about selling his Monarch prior to Bensen Days. He changed his mind. Like I said for his style of flying, the Monarch suits him better so it is a no brainer really. Ask Tim if he was not in fact wanting to sell the Monarch prior to going to Bensen Days...

I don't even know what you look like, I was making a joke about you being a Paul Hogan wannabe. Are you?

What does " Jarr up " mean?

Dominators " Stop and drop " gear claims are a joke. Most people run their Dominators shocks with too much PSI and the shocks are too stiff to absorb a stop and drop from more than a foot or so. Anything higher and the Dominator could bend or break. I don't promote Dominators gear as having " Stop and Drop " functionality. What the Dominators suspension does do is give you a cushioned ride while in taxi or takeoff, especially on bumpy grass strips.

For the most part the GFLG is exploited ( by the 3 pilots I know that fly it, and all the videos ) as a neat show-off way of landing a gyro. Totally unneeded for safe gyro flight and of little real value 99 percent of the time to someone interested in flying gyros and NOT showing off. Therefore I call it a Gimmick.

Combine the GFLG with the new shock suspension bits and it is less Gimmicky, but still alot of extra tubing and pivot points and so on to add weight and drag and cost for the Stop and drop landing ability.

The Dominators suspension system is not a Gimmick in my opinion. One only needs to taxi or take off in one on a grass strip after doing the same in a non suspension gyro to see what good any brand suspension is. The Stock Butterfly has some kind of rubber donut suspension on the main gear doesn't it? If so I would not call that a gimmick, but GFLG is... that is my opinion.

I don't want GFLG, or else I would already have it or a version of it on one or both of my gyros. I would enjoy having GFLG though... Because when I fly I do like to show-off... And I think that you can do some neat showoff-ish manuvers with a gyro with GFLG that you couldn't safely and repeatedly do in a normal gyro.

Yes, the Early gyros did have gear simular in function to the GFLG....
 
Tim,

You have ALMOST convinced me I want a monarch. I'm sure I would be happy with a Dominator but the susupension on the monarch is way cool. I have a Xenon and love flying it. I do want to add a single place open frame to my hangar.
 
Ron I just read about a guy (honest and explicit in his explainantion, mucho kudos there for him.) who dinged his Dominator. Straight ahead off the end of the runway, all sorts of obsticles and well go read the thread. I dont know how long he was in the air before this happened but it seems to me like he would have had plenty of time for GFLG (type one) to descend and I believe the airshock version would have already extended way sooner.

I suspect that this gimmicky gear not dissimilar in function to what Cierva designed in the very first gyroplanes, should/would/could have prevented this tradgey. OK the guy said he made some mistakes but Hey, Larry designed the GFLG for just such an occassion and because we are not all perfect.
Mistakes get made.
Accidents happen!
Any component that reduces the accident rate is in my opinion NOT A GIMMICK!

Mitch.

When some one 'jarrs up' they are quickly, ready to defend their position. I dont know where the expression originated, maybe it has something to do with 'jarr heads'
 
Mitch, I think the GFLG may could have helped him if he had cut power and flared to a zero airspeed stop.... and then drop to a landing. From his description it sounded like he never really " Landed " but instead he touched down while in a turn and with significant forward ground speed. In this case most if not all gyros are going to flip over. Dominators do not tolerate landing with much forward speed on rough surfaces and they absolutely will not tolerate landing cross controlled or uncorrordinated.

Looking at the new version of the GFLG, I guess you could say it isn't totally a gimmick. It is a true suspension and it does offer some advantages in certain landing scenerios. It is a cool landing gear and like I said I believe it is probably the best suspension offering on the market right now.
 
Greg,
I think most people on the forum are glad to the GFLG come out. So what if it address only a small segment of the gyro crashes. That is one segment address. Well trained people have made mistakes or been the victim of circumstances beyond their control. As the landing gears are used, more improvements will continue. In the absence of the Mac, our gyros are heavier and the ox cart landing tubes do not lend themselves to beginner mistakes or bad situations. I cannot speak for the Dominator's, but there have been enough of Duck-walks to say, there is room for improvement. Not that it is not a good design, but there could be a better.
GFLG will grow in popularity when a few more well known and respected pilots such as Tim start supporting the ideal.
 
new video

new video

Tim and Tim,
I guess you two are going to have to make a new video and start a new thread. It looks like we have turned this one into a discussion about landing gears.
Tim V, thanks for the input about the "amost lost it" landings. I heard my friend say that he had to learn to land it retracted, before he could learn to land it sprung or extended. There is a question , I have about that, but I will wait until someone else brings it open. We have enough can of worms open already. I have really enjoy the pictures of the Monanarch I have received from my friend. That CNC millings sure does put my grinder and buffer to shame.
 
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