European accidents

"4. Stay off soft surfaces, such as mud and sand...."

Yowch! I bet I'm one of the few, if not the only one, that managed a roll-over trying to take off on a dirt road. You can see the track I took when the left wheel hit a soft spot. She was uprighted before the photo was taken.
 

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I am going to add (my)rule #7 to Doug's post.

#7. For every 5 MPH increase in wind, your chance of screwing up a takeoff or landing doubles. Crosswind landings quadrouple.

Scott Heger,Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH
 
EI-Gyro
Fergus

What do you know about this roll over? What type of machine was it, what sort of training/experience did the pilot have, was there a cross wind etc.

Red Bird
Robin
I
ask the same question as Fergus, what data do you have, this should be shared if there is possibility that a machine or design has problems.

Mike G
 
Doug Riley said:
J.R., here are some tips to avoid rollovers:

1. Beware of linked ground steering and rudder. At least use a very soft link. You're better off controlling them independently, even though it's a little more complex to learn.

2. Stay out of crosswinds when you're new at this.

3. When landing in wind, put the stick all the way against the forward stop and leave it there for several seconds.

4. Stay off soft surfaces, such as mud and sand (and SNOW, where I live).

5. Be certain you have mastered any yaw reaction that your craft has upon lifting off. Have an experienced pilot check out your machine and report these reactions to you. Sneak up on them by doing "balancing" at lower-than-takeoff power, in CALM air, until the correct pedal pressure is automatic.

6. Have your instructor teach you how to slip a gyro.

Very wise words again Doug !!!!
 
Ken J:

My research into taking off from soft surfaces was in heavy wet snow. It didn't go any better than yours.

Mike Boyette: Yes, land into the wind if you can. If field conditions require that you take off and land crosswind, just stay the heck on the ground if you're a low-time pilot.

I fly from a strip that's well oriented to the prevailing winds, but when a cold front rolls through, we have a westerly crosswind for a day. Three people died in a C-172 there a couple years ago, taking off in a strong crosswind, immediately downwind of a line of trees that parallels the runway.

In keeping with Mike's advice, I tried landing on the taxi strip (perpendicular to the runway) one time, just as folks sometimes do at Wauchula. The owner was NOT pleased. You need to get those slips into your bag o' tricks, but, again, stay out of crosswinds while you're new at this activity.
 
Doug Riley said:
Ken J:

.........If field conditions require that you take off and land crosswind, just stay the heck on the ground if you're a low-time pilot.

...... stay out of crosswinds while you're new at this activity.
This keeps getting said but I have a question or two.

I think I know what the answer is going to be but for grins just when does a low time pilot become a high time pilot.

And what transpires during that time the eliminates, or reduces, the opportunities for cross wind landing/takeoff problems? In other words, what does a 'high' time pilot know or do that a 'low' time one doesn't? How does the 'low' time pilot learn how to handle cross winds and turbulence without flying in them?
 
I'd be interested to hear what the other instructors have to say.

I suggest limiting oneself to (1) no crosswind and (2) wind down the runway at no more than 10 mph for 30-50 hours. In practice, this means flying in the early morning or evening on nice days.

During this time, you will be doing some passive learning, and you should also be doing some active learning.

The passive part is simply acclimation to your machine; its sights, sounds, feel, vibes, reaction times and even smells. Flying a gyro initially involves sensory overload on a par with a heavy metal concert. As you get accustomed to this (very intense) sensory pattern, it all gradually recedes into the background.* Your mind gets less and less busy; the sights and sounds become part of the wallpaper. This leaves more reserve brain capacity to handle the higher workload in cross-winds.

You also get better at smooth, coordinated and calibrated control inputs simply by doing them over and over. You learn to leave the stick alone in the inevitable small bumps that you encounter even on a calm day.

You can do some active preparation, too. It's great just to gawk at the landscape while flying, but also do some little exercises each time you go up. You know the stuff from your dual instruction -- ground-reference and non-ground-reference circles, S-turns and so on. In particular, practice cross-controlled flight, first at altitude and then on final. Mount a yaw string and practice moving it around with your rudder pedals. Try using gentle slips to "slide" back and forth across your track on final. This is the tactic you can use if you must land cross-wind.

People learn at different rates, and they lose more or less skill between flights depending on how often they fly. I think the average leisure-time gyro flyer is approaching "old hand" status at perhaps the 200-hour mark. (That's 200 hours of real flying at altitude, going cross-country here and there -- not 200 hours of fast taxiing or crow-hops because your machine doesn't really fly properly yet!)

* Or maybe you just go deaf.
 
Mike G,

My information is that the MT-03 rolled during or after landing in
generally benign weather. I know no more than that.

Whether it was simply a screwed-up landing or indicates a machine
issue, I know not.
 
I am in error. The UK accident was the 13th MT03 to rollover. That we know of at least. I believe they have produced about 100 aircraft in all. That is not a good proportion. A gyroplane landed in the correct manner should have little forward motion when the nose wheel contacts the ground. Some of these accidents have happened to students, some to low time pilots. The Coventry accident pilot is experienced, but I believe he has had several other incidents with other machines.
 
I take a big issue to post #19.

I had that message ingrained in my head one day when a gusty 10 mph wind was blowing 90 degrees to my runway. I tried landing into the wind (across the runway) as I heard people often say. I encountered an unexpected balloon-up and was pointing out into cow pasture, so I did not correct with full power as I should have, and ended up rolling over.

I now land only in the direction I'm willing to fly if I have to go-around. That means a cross-controlled landing in a crosswind most times. I have successfully plunked myself down in a 14 knt 90-degree crosswind once using the cross-controlled technique. I won't do that too often though. Although my cushy Don Parham gear probably is what made that survivable.

Good way to learn how to do cross-control landings is pick a day when a 10mph is blowing down your runway (and will stay that way for a while).

Go find a field somewhere with a ground reference that is 90 degrees to the wind. Practice decents over the ground reference while holding cross-controls (stick into the wind and opposite rudder). The yaw string should be off center but your ground track should stay over the ground reference (like a fence line). Get used to the yaw-string mimicking the windsock, but your ground track centered down a virtual runway.

Also, I always come in with at least 2000 RPM when doing a crosswind landing to help with rudder control.

Remember the picture below next time you are considering landing across the runway with no way to do a go-around.
 

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Doug Riley said:
I'd be interested to hear what the other instructors have to say........
Me too!

Doug Riley said:
* Or maybe you just go deaf.
Hey, I resemble that remark! And I can't fly a lick!
 
Doug Riley said:
I'd be interested to hear what the other instructors have to say.

I suggest limiting oneself to (1) no crosswind and (2) wind down the runway at no more than 10 mph for 30-50 hours. In practice, this means flying in the early morning or evening on nice days.

During this time, you will be doing some passive learning, and you should also be doing some active learning.

The passive part is simply acclimation to your machine; its sights, sounds, feel, vibes, reaction times and even smells. Flying a gyro initially involves sensory overload on a par with a heavy metal concert. As you get accustomed to this (very intense) sensory pattern, it all gradually recedes into the background.* Your mind gets less and less busy; the sights and sounds become part of the wallpaper. This leaves more reserve brain capacity to handle the higher workload in cross-winds.

You also get better at smooth, coordinated and calibrated control inputs simply by doing them over and over. You learn to leave the stick alone in the inevitable small bumps that you encounter even on a calm day.

You can do some active preparation, too. It's great just to gawk at the landscape while flying, but also do some little exercises each time you go up. You know the stuff from your dual instruction -- ground-reference and non-ground-reference circles, S-turns and so on. In particular, practice cross-controlled flight, first at altitude and then on final. Mount a yaw string and practice moving it around with your rudder pedals. Try using gentle slips to "slide" back and forth across your track on final. This is the tactic you can use if you must land cross-wind.

People learn at different rates, and they lose more or less skill between flights depending on how often they fly. I think the average leisure-time gyro flyer is approaching "old hand" status at perhaps the 200-hour mark. (That's 200 hours of real flying at altitude, going cross-country here and there -- not 200 hours of fast taxiing or crow-hops because your machine doesn't really fly properly yet!)

* Or maybe you just go deaf.


Wish everyone would read what you say Doug !! Why is that no one wants to do something the common sense way ??
 
If your not relaxed and confident do'n wot your do'n, don't go to the next step up the ladder till you are.
[ if your not relaxed n confident with the preflight...................]
 
MT-03 Rollovers

MT-03 Rollovers

Don't know the MT-03 very well, although I did do a demo flight in one not so long ago.

If I understand the steering mechanism correctly, it is a castering system, and recent changes have been made to it. The instructor at the time told me to lock my feet dead still on take off and landing. Does this mean this gyro is potentially unstable with regard to steering on the ground? Any comments?
 
Great, Doug.

I agree with you and with Aussie Paul.

Roll-overs shouldn’t happen so often. They are caused by an inadequate landing maneuver. All gyro’s landings should be performed at very low speed. Once the main gear contacts the ground, the nose wheel should be held in the air until the stick is against the rear stop. Then, and only then, (once the nose wheel has settled down) the stick must be moved against the forward stop.

This technique minimizes the nose contact speed which is the main producer of roll-overs.

Another question is roll-overs in hard winds. They usually happen after landings, when the pilot relaxes too soon. In hard wind the rotor is alive and capable of rolling the gyro after a full stop landing. But this only can happen if the disc rotor is not in horizontal position.

In cross winds the pilot must continue flying the gyro until putting the rotor horizontal. And the rotor should be held in this position until completely stopped. At low rpm the rotor is not able to roll the gyro. But if the disc horizontally is lost the blades can flap out of control and hit the tail or the propeller.

Ferran.
 
J.R., Doug's points are all right on, esp the link between rudder and nose sterring. In the RAF we have a firm rule that on landing you do not touch the nose wheel until there is NO forward motion while on the mains and tail wheel. The reason is the possibility of X wind correction in at the time of touch down which would cock the nose wheel. If this touches--even at 15mph a rollover is all but assured. I think rollovers are less apt to happen in HTL machines because of the lower center of gravity.
Walt G.
 
situation in Germany, Questions

situation in Germany, Questions

Hi,

I am Ultralight pilot with very little Gyrocpter knowledge, but I want to give you the information I have about Germany.

There has been a article in "Aerokurier" which says that 12 Gyrocopter are known officially to have bend over at ground. The microlight federations, responable here for instructor licences, pilot licences, homolgations and so on have decided for these reasons to define obligation to make 20 hours of practice training for those who are pilots yet, even for professional helicopter pilots.

In the same revue (aerokurier Febr. 2007) the numbers of immatriculations of gyrocopters are published. In 2005 and 2006 together it were 60. Should be understood that some machines have been resold and were counted twice. How many machines were sold in Germany I don't know. If altogether it were 60, that would mean that 20% of the machines were destroyed while ground handling.

I don't know why it takes more than 2 years for the federations to react..

Now I read in a two german forums that someone made investigations in Europe, he estimates that there are errors in training. One man made instructor for many other instructors, and they semm all to have the same opinions. They are contractions to the answers of other european instructors, as it seems. I discussed a little bit, but I have problems of comprehension.

Perhaps in the US there are expieriences which can help to understand the problem.

People here say:

1. If you have to leave the runway quick, you should keep the stick pulled to maintain rotor speed, and leave the runway like that.

What do you think about that?

2. They say that the rotor lift stabilises the gyrocopter in curves.

I can tell you that I would never think so with my trike (? deltawing with engine). The machine looses weight to be well standing at ground, and centrifugal forces would be more important - so I can not imagine how this can stabilise the airplane.

3. They say that the rotor would loose rpm if you put the stick forward when rolling, and that makes the rotor flap.

OK, I read that a rotor flaps only when there are not enough rpm, but if the rotor disk is not inclined, especially at low rpm, the lift is zero or very little, and as the diffence in lift makes to flap - if there is no lift there is no difference - just at my little comprehension of physik.

4. They say that a rotor that flaps makes bent over the machine.

Can a rotor turning too slow make bent over a gyrocopter of 450 kg when there is little lift, because it flaps? I can not well imagine.

Perhaps some one can explane that a little bit. Or post in the german forums, for example http://gyrocopterforum.de . Usually people here speak some english.

Sorry for not having studyd all your forum befor posting, but it is difficult in english. Also sorry if my ideas should be wrong.

Thank you for answers.

Regards,

Klaus
 
Hello...

My experience is very limited, and here you'll soon hear lots of good advice from people with lots of gyro time.

I fly an ELA, and the German version is -save for some details of the fairing-almost identical. The steering wheel has to be handled with extreme care in the ELA, and a even a slight oversight means a turnover and a destroyed machine.

Let's see if I can make at least some comments to your queries:


1. If you have to leave the runway quickly, you should first push the stick to keep the rotor vertical.

2. The spinning rotor doesn't stabilize anything that is rolling on wheels. On the contrary, it will de-stabilize it, specially in curves.

3. Yes, if the rotor loses speed, it will also lose rigidity and always tend to flap. It will flap -in the presence of wind, relative or not- even with the stick full forward, but the flapping won't be as severe as when the rotor is tilted backwards and you are rolling at speed. There is always a lift disymmetry, even when the stick is full forward, since the rotor has a built-in positive pitch.

4. The blades of a rotor flapping severely may hit the ground, or the vertical stabilizer, or even the prop. A flapping rotor is dangerous and destructive.

Rgds

XXavier
 
...People here say:

1. If you have to leave the runway quick, you should keep the stick pulled to maintain rotor speed, and leave the runway like that.
This is true for some gyros, but it should be considered an advanced maneuver. Inexperienced gyro pilots are better off balancing on the mains to flying airspeed.

2. They say that the rotor lift stabilises the gyrocopter in curves.
No. Taxiing is always safer with the rotor stopped. When taxiing on uneven-bumpy surface it may be desirable to spin the rotor to over 100 RPM to keep the rotor from bouncing around too much. But from a ground stability point of view taxiing with a stopped rotor is always safer.

3. They say that the rotor would loose rpm if you put the stick forward when rolling, and that makes the rotor flap.
I don't think I understand what you mean. After landing the safer thing to do is stop the gyro, stop the rotor, and then taxi. When taxiing with the rotor turning you have to "fly" the rotor all the time and when the rotor RPM is less than 100 it can indeed start flapping due to a wind gust or uneven lift. But there is very little energy in a rotor at less than 100 RPM and this flapping cannot, all by itself, roll the machine over.

The two main reasons gyros are rolled over on the ground are crabbed landing and a poor design of the nose wheel. Gyros cannot take much of a crabbed landing. It is very important to land with the airframe aligned with the direction of movement over the runway. Grass landing strips are more forgiving.

Gyros should have nose wheels that have some castering ability. When you land with some rudder to counter cross wind the nose wheel is not aligned with the runway. If the nose wheel can't caster and it touches the runway the gyro will turn. If the gyro is still moving and the rotor is making lift - well, it's going to roll over.

Another reason for gyros rolling is when the rotor is at flight speed and the pilot does not roll the rotor into a cross wind. A cross wind, when getting under the rotor, will turn the gyro over.

Udi
 
Three-wheeled vehicles are unstable compared to four-wheeled ones.

If you must turn off the runway quickly, slow down first, using the brakes aggressively if necessary. Do not make a ground turn at high speed under any circumstances.

Be extremely cautious in cross-winds. Keep the stick all the way forward. Tip the rotor sideways so that the wind strikes the top of the disk. Do not taxi in windy conditions with the rotor turning fast.

There is no excuse for excessively sensitive ground steering. There is also no excuse for "unitized" steering that makes the gyro swerve dangerously upon putting its nosewheel down after landing. It is not difficult to design a friendly, safe steering unit.
 
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