McCutchen vs. Dragon Wings

[GyroRon]

John my dear Friend, I have to tell you that you ARE wrong on this concerning Dean. Everything he has said is right on the money and is fact. Like Udi said he doesn't have to fly to know these things. A fact is a fact and if you know the facts as a landbased person or a pilot it makes no difference, a fact is still a fact.

Now number one, Mike Morgan has two gyros and two sets of blades. One set of D.W.'s and one set of Skywheels. I don't think he is in the market for new blades just yet, but I think he wants to know if the Dragons will boost the performance of the Subaru gyro I sold him, Possibly so he can run the engine less hard and have lower coolant temps. I think Mike justs wants to know has anyone compared D.W.'s to Skywheels on the same machine with same length blades.... I myself have flown under both brands and yes the Dragons are nice, but I also have not flown the same machine with both brands. YOU have flown with two brands on the same machine and can make a comparison between Brocks and Dragons, Same as Scott can with his Rotorhawks and your Dragons....

Two, Deans points about stablity have nothing to do with the " feel " of a stable gyro, which your making a point of him not flying seems to want to discredit, which is a reasonable arguement since how could Dean know if a change of blades will give a gyro a better feel since he doesn't fly. BUT..... The stability Dean is referring to is not a " feel " thing but instead the stability of the machine in pitch due to the better thrustline CG offset. On a non centerline trust machine like Mikes Aircommand, a set of blades that weight nearly twice as much as Dragon Wings may make a huge difference in the offset of the trustline. And the closer the trustline is to the CG the more Stable a gyro will be overall. You flew my Dominator, it has Centerline trust, didn't it feel rock solid to you? Your machine has nearly Centerline trust but yet we all could see you on the ground as you flew by at Scotts place and at full power fly bys your machine was very much flying nose down, at lower speeds it was more level in flight. Was my dominator flying by nose down on my high speed fly bys? This is all part of what it means to be stable in a gyro. The " feel " is just a part of gyro stability.

Hope you not mad, I love ya man!

[MMorgan]

Mike Boyette.......if you are still lurking around this thread......does 25 ft. DW's use the same hub bar as my 23's or do you go to a longer one??

I guess what I'm really asking is can I make my 23's into 25's by changing the hub bar??

[gyromike]

Originally Posted by Screw

Scrw-In

The thread is McCutchens Vs. Dragon Wings. I've flown both and have an opinion. Do you?

Screw-Out

John,

Did you fly them both on the same machine?

[Screw]

Screw-In

Dean, Ron, and all. Sorry for my opinion.

Mike, No.

Screw-Out

[Greg Mitchell]

G'Day Gents,

I got told on the Oz forum way back that opinions I held based on fact didn't hold because I was a Newbie and not flying. In fact I was told I would never fly. I don't post much anymore, only to put up progress pics of my Butterfly build process.

We were (still are) associated with Patroney Blades here in OZ. We asked Rob to develop his composite blades to a 23 foot disc and have 12" hub bar and bring the weight in around a target of 45 lbs. Larry Neal did all his prototype testing on Benson blades 21'9" disc, I believe weight was 42.5 lbs.

Cutting a long post short, fisrt set of blades for Monarch in OZ came in at 58-59 lbs, roughly 16 lbs over our target. I knew (without being a pilot) that this would affect our thrustline to CofG offset. Concerned by this I obviously looked for advice and direction from Larry, Matt Pearson and others here and abroad. The bottom line is IMHO you don't need to be a pilot to post quality info or refer people to quality articles and participate in theory discussions, all the while gaining valuable knowledge on this vast learning curve.

Shifting the CofG up closer to a HTL by flying heavier blades (given they don't have any nasty habits) should theoretically make for improvement with respect to longitudinal stability, though added weight will probably affect overall performance. Having said that, someone may (may have already)develop heavier blades which perform better, which in turn could off set, the weight/performance issues.

My worry was that by adding 16 lbs at the top we would possibly, dramatically change the offset relationship on the Butterfly which has thrustline at 1 1/2" below CofG. We are doing comparisons between Benson/Patroney/and hopefully Dragon Wings here in Oz. Larry strongly recommends the DW's as they weigh slightly less than the Benson's provide more lift, are less draggy and they hang in there longer in the flare. I look forward to posting some results for you over the comming months.

Mitch

[Chuck Irby]

Mike Morgan, It appears that Mike B. is no longer lurking around the forum. So... a 3 foot hub bar should work to make your blades into a 25 (providing you are using a 1' bar now). I'm pretty sure that 12' blades are the longest Ernie makes, thus anything over 25' would require a longer hub bar. I have a 2 foot hub bar, in case you want to try your blades as a 24.

[GyroRon]

John your opinion is just a valued as anyones here, But I have read all of Deans posts here on this forum and have had the pleasure of meeting him in person at Bensen Days a few years ago and I don't think he has said anything that was wrong in his posts yet.

Your opinion that someone who is not flying or hasn't yet flown is a good opinion, but with time if a person pays attention, you can learn alot without ever leaving the ground just by reading and remembering others posts that do fly.

Here is a blurry pic of Dean and his new better half

[Dean_Dolph]

Hey, John, everyone has an opinion. Opinions and facts both have value and if we think about it we realize that our facts started out as someone's opinion. So there is no reason for you to not offer yours.

Now for 'How would you know?'

Well, the last time I checked Mother Nature didn't have a separate set of rules for pilots and non-pilots. Her rules are the rules are the rules are the rules........ Ron clarified my position nicely. Thanx Ron!

I certainly try and avoid offering any advice on equipment where flying and building experience carries the most weight. So if you catch me doing it then you have not only the right but also an obligation to question the validity. None of us want to lead new people in the wrong direction.

One thing you did do was cause all the 'young' guys to come to grandpas defense. Thanks youse guys!

[Screw]

Screw-In

Meant no harm, just disagree. I'm out of this thread.

Screw-Out

[CLS447]

Dean, just one question, no offense but..... Why don't you fly?

[MikeBoyette]

Mike M,
While Chuck is correct I don't believe Dad will do that. You might want to give him a call after Mentone. I would test fly them first.

[Dean_Dolph]

Chris, there are several reasons starting with the fact that over a 48 hour period I lost 100% of my hearing in my right ear in 1964. This was one week after I had made my initial contact with a Long Beach CA. flight school. I was advised by my doctor at that time to not fly in anything but commercial aircraft. The thought at the time was that a sudden change in air pressure could damage a person's ears and I only had one left and it wasn't the best. That thinking has changed so that is not a problem now.

However I've since lost considerable hearing in my left ear to the point that without my hearing aide it is very difficult to communicate. The two hearing losses are unrelated. The doctors at the House Institute in CA. were never able to determine exactly what caused the first event. The problem with the one ear I have that still works is that I have inner ear autoimmune disease. This means that my immune system sees my inner ear (the cochlea) as a threat and tries to destroy it. I take a steroid to suppress the immune system and to slow up the attack. Eventually I'll probably need a cochlea implant.

In a quiet environment my hearing isn't much of a problem but in a noisy one like a small aircraft then it is next to insurmountable. I've tried to train in tandem trainers and I can't understand what is being said over the intercom so the instructors wisely make a decision to stop the training. I did manage to get some training with Steve Graves in his SXS Marchetti while I was doing a personal evaluation of my ability to fly. I enjoyed it and felt comfortable but I can't pass a third class med so a PPL is out of the question. The only possibilities for me are ultralight and maybe Sport Pilot.

There is the remote possibility of using an in ear device in conjunction with anti-noise circuitry that gets its signal from a loop worn around the neck. I use a similar device with my cell phone to feed the telecoil on my hearing aide. This device is used in the entertainment industry by camera men and others. In fact it was a former PRA chapter member in that business who made me aware of it. While we were discussing it, it dawned on us that such a setup might be beneficial to normal hearing folks. The in ear device would have to be custom made just like a hearing aide mold but there would be no large ear muffs and the neck loop could be easily attached inside a helmet. It should be much more convenient and comfortable to wear and possibly enhance a pilots understanding. I have this on my to do list and hope to eventually do some serious investigation. If some one else wants to investigate then they can start here. http://www.comtek.com/IFBCueing/ifbcueing.html

There are other reasons that I stated in a reply to Chuck Irby. See http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/sho...5&page=2&pp=15

You asked, Chuck asked so now if anyone asks in the future all I have to do is refer them to these two posts!

[CLS447]

Sorry to read about your hearing, but with your knowledge I'm sure you could do it easily. I would certainly go for a heck of alot of rides. I think a passenger can tell alot about different machines without actually taking the stick.

[MMorgan]

TEST FLIGHT RESULTS FROM BLADE SWAP:

I flew my A/C with the DW blades and made the following notes in order to compare how the same machine flies with the McCutchens:
rotor rpm--- 330-340
time to climb to 1000ft.----2 min 10 sec @50 mph
speed at 6000rpm, level flight-----65mph

And 15 minutes later I flew with the McCutchens:
rotor rpm----355-360
time to climb to 1000ft.-----2 min @50 mph
speed at 6000rpm, level flight----70mph

Both blades are 23ft, temp was 90-92 degrees with a light north wind. Climb was made from a flying start just above the runway at 50mph to 1000ft. Only one climb was done so the result is subject to more error than if I had done several and averaged them. More stick shake was noted with the McCutchens.

It was very obvious right after liftoff that there was not much difference in the blades as far as climb rate. The McCutchens turn 20-25 rpm faster to fly the same machine.

[MMorgan]

I put the DW blades on the Benson a few minutes after I did the A/C test. I do not have a rotor tach or altimeter on the Benson.

Takeoff and climb felt about the same. I had no trouble with blade flapping as I was concerned the electric prerotator would not spin the DW's fast enough. The was quite a bit more shake with the DW's than with the McCutchen's. With the lighter blade I was expecting a little more performance and I may be getting a better climb rate but until I do a time to climb I cannot be sure. I can say absolutely that there is very little difference in the blades. I did not do a speed test.