Millennium Flying again!

Vance,
As a good friend and supporter of Mr. Fetters, how do you feel about the following FACTS?

1) He sold 500+ kits in a very short year-and-a-half or so. There is SOMEreason a cheap sexy little helicopter like that design, does not number in the tens of thousands, now, almost 17 years later? What do you feel is the reason?
2) The reason there is not 10,000+ Mini 500's flying today, is because the initial customers felt and voiced loudly, that Mr. Fetters actions after their ships were flying, were not typical of how a company treats its' customers.

The Mini-500 had problems that, IMHO, could have been fixed and the company could have moved on, and sold tens of thousand more ships. The thing that sank the ship, again IMHO, is the heartfelt anger of that initial group of buyers, toward Mr. Fetters, for how he did things, what he said to and about them, and what they claimed were his downright ruthless and possibly unethical business practices.

I experienced all that mostly second hand, since I was only the pilot of one of his first customer's ships. I was also a close personal friend of a regional Mini-500 dealer. I remember all the negative mudslinging back and forth. I remember lawsuit threats. I remember builder's group(s) of some of the initial 500+ owners forming a practical "battle-Plan" against the company.

I don't think I have witnessed or learned of this phenomenon about any other company, toward their customers and potential customers. The taste that Mr. Fetters left in his customers' mouths has been a legacy that B.J. Schramm had to deal with every day with the Helicycle. It also is constantly in John Uptigrove's mind with the Mosquitoes.

I go back to my original question...There is SOMEreason a cheap sexy little helicopter like that design, does not number in the tens of thousands, now, almost 17 years later? What do you feel is the reason? It is not because the Mini was garbage. It wasn't.
 
The selling contract had legal issues on people doing mods done to the Mini. Its the problem of doing changes to the design & signing the stupid piece of paper. Like the Robinson SFAR when you buy a Ribbie machine.
 
It simply didn't work out.

It simply didn't work out.

Vance,
As a good friend and supporter of Mr. Fetters, how do you feel about the following FACTS?

1) He sold 500+ kits in a very short year-and-a-half or so. There is SOMEreason a cheap sexy little helicopter like that design, does not number in the tens of thousands, now, almost 17 years later? What do you feel is the reason?
2) The reason there is not 10,000+ Mini 500's flying today, is because the initial customers felt and voiced loudly, that Mr. Fetters actions after their ships were flying, were not typical of how a company treats its' customers.

The Mini-500 had problems that, IMHO, could have been fixed and the company could have moved on, and sold tens of thousand more ships. The thing that sank the ship, again IMHO, is the heartfelt anger of that initial group of buyers, toward Mr. Fetters, for how he did things, what he said to and about them, and what they claimed were his downright ruthless and possibly unethical business practices.

I experienced all that mostly second hand, since I was only the pilot of one of his first customer's ships. I was also a close personal friend of a regional Mini-500 dealer. I remember all the negative mudslinging back and forth. I remember lawsuit threats. I remember builder's group(s) of some of the initial 500+ owners forming a practical "battle-Plan" against the company.

I don't think I have witnessed or learned of this phenomenon about any other company, toward their customers and potential customers. The taste that Mr. Fetters left in his customers' mouths has been a legacy that B.J. Schramm had to deal with every day with the Helicycle. It also is constantly in John Uptigrove's mind with the Mosquitoes.

I go back to my original question...There is SOMEreason a cheap sexy little helicopter like that design, does not number in the tens of thousands, now, almost 17 years later? What do you feel is the reason? It is not because the Mini was garbage. It wasn't.


Hello Brian,

I have a different definition of facts than you do.

In my opinion your fantasy about how many Mini 500s would have been sold with better management is not based on any similar product’s history.

B.J.Schramm tried and failed many times to make a kit built helicopter business work. I don’t denigrate him for his failures; I applaud him for his tenacity.

There have been customers that felt I didn’t treat them well.

I feel that a helicopter has too many critical systems for most amateur builders to manage.

I feel that anything to do with aviation as a business is particularly challenging.

In my experience people often blame someone else for their results not meeting their expectations.

Dennis’s Mini 500 adventure didn’t work out.

If Dennis were to come to me for advice with that business plan I would tell him not to do it because the margins are too short and the fantasies of the customers too large.

I told my friend Mike, who makes motorcycle seats the same thing in 1968 and he didn’t listen.

I make mistakes too.

Today Mike is helping me with the composite parts of Mariah Gale because he is my friend.

Thank you, Vance
 
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Bravo

Bravo

...your fantasy about how many Mini 500s would have been sold with better management is not based on any similar product’s history.
Not true! Compare it to Robinson Helicopters at 10X the cost

B.J.Schramm tried and failed many times to make a kit built helicopter business work.
This is fact, but the Helicycle is proving to be a success, posthumously.

I feel that a helicopter has too many critical systems for most amateur builders to manage.
I totally disagree here. Nothing in the Robinsons that is magic. They are very simple machines

I feel that the anything to do with aviation as a business is particularly challenging.
This is fact!

In my experience people often blame someone else for their results not meeting their expectations.
This is fact!

Dennis’s Mini 500 adventure didn’t work out.
This is fact!
 
...your fantasy about how many Mini 500s would have been sold with better management is not based on any similar product’s history.
Not true! Compare it to Robinson Helicopters at 10X the cost

B.J.Schramm tried and failed many times to make a kit built helicopter business work.
This is fact, but the Helicycle is proving to be a success, posthumously.

I feel that a helicopter has too many critical systems for most amateur builders to manage.
I totally disagree here. Nothing in the Robinsons that is magic. They are very simple machines

I feel that the anything to do with aviation as a business is particularly challenging.
This is fact!

In my experience people often blame someone else for their results not meeting their expectations.
This is fact!

Dennis’s Mini 500 adventure didn’t work out.
This is fact!

Hello Brian,

In my opinion your example of a Robinson Helicopter is poorly chosen.

It would be hard to find two more divergent businesses. I feel the rotor provides nearly the only commonality.

Frank learned quickly that he needed margins to make his business work. That is why an R22 is so much more expensive.

Frank has done a good job of managing customer expectations, production, quality control and marketing.

Robinson Helicopters are not built by amateurs.

There must be some other reason there aren’t thousands of Safari helicopters sold??? Dennis wasn’t involved in that.

There must be some other reason there aren’t thousands of Brantly helicopters sold??? Dennis wasn’t involved in that either.

Thank you, Vance
 
I feel your opinion is based on ignorance, fantasy and speculation and might be best left unspoken.

I am sorry to say, and I am deeply surprised,
but this is one of the most rude statements on this forum,
although put in nice and polite words.

Please read it again and try to apply to your process of thoughts.

And again, I advice you to have a look on the life achievements
of Agusto Ciciare, especially the numbers of CH-7 (and clones)
manufactured and successfully flown worldwide, compared to Mini 500.

I rest may case here, not interested any more in being
part of this endless game of smoke and mirrors...

Just one more thing:

there is a huge difference between a correctly functioning legal system,
absolutely essential to proper functioning of modern, civilized society,
and a bunch of greedy lawyers trying to sue everybody for everything,
in hope of cashing in ridiculously high compensations for imaginative damages.
 
Lawyers the only reason why boost pumps in a beech are $65.oo for a right pump & $1700.oo for a left pump or what ever side as its the same pump. just differant wings.:)
 
I am sorry to say, and I am deeply surprised,
but this is one of the most rude statements on this forum,
although put in nice and polite words.

Please read it again and try to apply to your process of thoughts.

And again, I advice you to have a look on the life achievements
of Agusto Ciciare, especially the numbers of CH-7 (and clones)
manufactured and successfully flown worldwide, compared to Mini 500.

I rest may case here, not interested any more in being
part of this endless game of smoke and mirrors...

Just one more thing:

there is a huge difference between a correctly functioning legal system,
absolutely essential to proper functioning of modern, civilized society,
and a bunch of greedy lawyers trying to sue everybody for everything,
in hope of cashing in ridiculously high compensations for imaginative damages.

Thank you for trying to teach me manners Pail.

I am sorry you chose to feel affronted.

It may be a language or cultural challenge.

Ignorance: Lack of knowledge.

Fantasy: A mental image created by the imagination.

Speculation: Opinion based on incomplete information.

Unspoken: Not uttered or talked about, although thought about.

What do you know about Dennis’s legal entanglements with Millennium Helicopters that is not based on your fantasy and speculation?

I was taught that it is ill advised to attack something or someone based on fantasy and speculation.

I was also taught that someone who doesn’t have a factual basis for their position will try to change the subject.

I didn’t know that Augusta Ciciare was a party to this legal action.

It appears I have not learned my lesson.

I continue to not see your point and discourage your continued attack on things you have so little demonstrated knowledge about.

Thank you, Vance
 
I have come to the conclusion that "Vance Breese" is really Fetters' alter ego, or his parent.
 
Bryan,

Vance is an extraordinarily well-respected member of this forum, and I think most everyone who has any interaction with him at all know him to be nothing but a gentleman and someone to be admired...not disparaged.

-John
 
I don't understand why fetters would want to sue john for building a new and improved version of the mini 500.....

Personally I don't care for people like that, and tend to avoid them.....
 
I don't understand why fetters would want to sue john for building a new and improved version of the mini 500.....

Personally I don't care for people like that, and tend to avoid them.....
AMEN brother. That guy is a piece of work. Ohhhhhhhhhh shhhhhhhhhh he'll sue us too!
 
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...your fantasy about how many Mini 500s would have been sold with better management is not based on any similar product’s history.
Not true! Compare it to Robinson Helicopters at 10X the cost

B.J.Schramm tried and failed many times to make a kit built helicopter business work.
This is fact, but the Helicycle is proving to be a success, posthumously.

Bryan, with all due respect, comparing the Mini 500 to the Robinson line is a huge stretch. Had the Mini 500 had to go through Part 27 certification, many of its issues would have been exposed and remedied before the first customer flew one. Just the replacement of the 582 with a certificated engine would have solved a big part of it.

As for the Helicycle being a "success," that depends on your definition. It does not sell in the numbers necessary, nor generate the profit margin necessary, to be viewed as a successful business by accepted standards. If you define success as coming up with next month's rent, OK, but that's not what most businesses define as success. Eagle R&D would not be an exciting acquisition prospect to anyone but another personal rotorcraft enthusiast or historian.

For whatever else you could say about Dennis, he measures success, and plans and budgets for it, in a manner consistent with the rest of the business world. Air Command was a great example, a real business in the midst of an underfunded cottage industry.
 
Hawk- When do you estimate your helicopter will be flying? We need another good helicopter to be offered to the public. Helicycle and the Mosquito are the only two lower cost kits out here that are proven good flyers. I hope that Johns Millenneum and yours kick off a third excellent choice. Helicycle has reallly established itself as a dependable helicopter, and it will be nice to see yours having the same success. You have the potential for selling many of these and I wish you great success. I have been looking towards the day of flying alongside Johns Millenneum. Maybe he could make our big 50th at Mentone next year! Stan

I guess there is a bit of clearifacation in order. First, Millennium is NOT selling any parts or anything to do with the oridginal Mini 500 designs. We are ONLY selling the MH1 upgrade for the Mini 500 which are of our own designs...period! I started this thread to share the elation John was feeling after getting his ship back in the air not to start a war!!!!

As to getting my ship completed, I just need work to slow down!! I have all the of the upgrade added minus the frame and engine installed. Hopefully in the next months I'll be able to finish. I'm hoping to go to several flyin's next year and fly to them not trailer the ship there...can't wait:):)
 
I dont see how Dennis could sue for that and win. Companies come out with products to upgrade and improve other products all the time.
 
I just can't believe how some of you old-gossiping Lady's can get off on a rant!

I never said I was going to sue this guy. I have no argument or contact with this guy. I went to the Millennium web-page and saw what was going on there again. That is all.

None of you know the details of the agreement that John and I made in order for me not to continue the lawsuit against him for his breach of our contract.

Out of all of this, I hope that John will learn that I will do exactly what I say I will do. I don't kid around with contracts, and I always do what I say I will. John knows what he needs to do to adhere to his new contract with me, and he knows that this time I won't stop, no matter how many pitiful emails and phone calls and promises.

In a real world situation, just talking and not referring to anyone particular; If someone makes a deal with you, and you hand over something of yours to them, under certain conditions, then you expect them to honor those conditions. If they don't, then you have every right to do what is legally available to you to make them obey those conditions, or cancel the deal and all benefit that they would have received from that deal.

If that perpetrator makes a new deal with you to agree to stop and give you back what is yours, only to wiggle out of the lawsuit with no intention to obey that agreement, then this time you can't be merciful and fooled again. You got to just take them out financially.

Anyone that don't agree with this is a fool, a thief or just plan stupid, in my opinion.

I'm getting ready to spend some money on this, and when I do, there is no turning back this time. I'll be watching the web-site for a few more days, lets see....
 
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