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  #1  
Old 06-23-2013, 06:42 PM
alienwes alienwes is offline
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Default Dominator with Viking Engine

Doing some research here so please bear with me.

Looking for information about the 2 place Dominator with the Viking engine. I know the Viking is in the 100-110 HP range. The smaller Subaru is 135 HP so is the 2 place Viking machine underpowered? Or is the Subaru that much heavier?

Also, I see some Dominators have the 165 HP engine as an option, is that because its needs that much power to perform well or is it overkill?

I want a machine that can perform 2 place off of my dirt strip once I have enough experience. Its a 630 foot dirt strip at 3,000 msl with no obstructions on either end and faces south, which is the predominate wind. I also have access really close to an East/West private gravel road that I sometimes fly my PPC off of. This would be a crosswind on a lot of days though. Bad if flying PPC.

I weigh 160 and my dad is 210. He has expressed interest in getting his Sport License and maybe going half on a machine. The used dominators are at the higher end of this but if we are going gyro they seem like an option we can afford.

Anybody have experience flying the Dominator at higher altitudes like 7,000 msl two place?

Thanks for any contribution to my questions.
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  #2  
Old 06-25-2013, 05:07 AM
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viking is alot lighter than a subaru
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  #3  
Old 06-25-2013, 11:41 AM
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Wes,
I don't know what gyro experience you have since your bio information is incomplete.
My best advice is to talk w/Ernie Boyette at RFD for all your details about the Dominator with the Viking engine. I have not flown the 2place Dom w/the Viking but do have experience with Rotax, Viking and Subaru. I fly a 912ULS Dominator.
First, the 2.2L Subaru is 130HP and is too heavy and under powered for P/W ratio.
Stay away from it.
Secondly, I don't know what 165HP engine you are referring to but I assume something like that is a sled engine. Again, no experience.
The Viking engine is rated at 110HP @ 5800rpm's. The Rotax 912ULS is rated at 100HP for 5 min. at 5800rpm's, then drop below 5500rpm's to 95HP. All are sea level ratings.
Static thrust tests were performed on the two above engines. The Viking was consistently 50#'s more than the Rotax. Both ran at 5100 rpm's and the Viking put out 525+/- #'s while the Rotax was about 475 #'s. The only difference was that the Viking was turning a 70" W/D 3 blade while the Rotax's was a 68".
The Viking engine is based on a Honda Fit block which has been around a good 10 yrs.
The only thing to 'time prove' is the Viking gear box but the gears are 'beafy' and larger than the Rotax's.
I don't think Ernie will sell you a 2place unit unless you have over 100 or 150 hrs. in the seat, not sure which.
As to your location, 650' of strip would be in my comfort zone for solo flight but I'm not sure about 2 up for take-off. I'd prefer about 1K. Good luck in your endeavors...
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  #4  
Old 06-25-2013, 03:36 PM
Jason O Jason O is offline
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Default Viking powered Dominator

There is a Viking powered Dominator for sale on Barnstormers
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  #5  
Old 06-25-2013, 03:58 PM
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I fly a RAF at socorro the alt is 4,800,the 2.2 @ 130 hp will not fly two people at this alt,

my engine is a 165 subaru with a turbocharger, I have 230 hp and use it all on hot days.

to much HP is not a problem on gyros here in NM.

Best regards,eddie.....
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Old 06-25-2013, 05:21 PM
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Unless I missed something, the Dominator for sale on Barnstormers is a Subaru powered
2 place Belonging to Reed S. in Florida. If there is a Viking one, please post a link.
Thanks,
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  #7  
Old 06-25-2013, 06:05 PM
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Its the one listed as Tandem Dominator / Viking
I don't know if this link will work but just look under gyros in the experimental section

http://www.barnstormers.com/cat.php?mode=listing&main=

Regards
Jason

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark treidel View Post
Unless I missed something, the Dominator for sale on Barnstormers is a Subaru powered
2 place Belonging to Reed S. in Florida. If there is a Viking one, please post a link.
Thanks,
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  #8  
Old 06-25-2013, 06:28 PM
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Here it is:
http://www.barnstormers.com/ad_detail.php?ID=785305

Tandem Dominator / Viking


TANDEM DOMINATOR / VIKING • $32,999 • AVAILABLE • 2013 Tandem Dominator with viking engine with aveo ultra aurora 3 in 1. • Contact Kent G. Gilbert located Brookshire, TX USA • Telephone: 832 228 4063 • Posted June 4, 2013 • Show all Ads posted by this Advertiser • Recommend This Ad to a Friend • Email Advertiser • Save to Watchlist • Report This Ad • Get Hassle-Free Aviation Financing
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  #9  
Old 06-25-2013, 09:29 PM
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Would this be N4844W ? This Texas based Viking Dominator was briefly mentioned on this forum earlier in 2013.


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  #10  
Old 06-26-2013, 07:36 AM
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Steve,
No this one is white and does not have a body on it. They were built around the same time both went to Texas. This one went to Southeast Texas. The other was a yellow machine with a body and went to Northern Texas.
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  #11  
Old 06-26-2013, 03:11 PM
alienwes alienwes is offline
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Thanks everyone for the valuable input. My concern is getting a good climb rate at higher altitudes. Looking for something that could take 2 up, (360Lbs pilot and passenger) with full fuel at 6,000 msl and still get decent climb.
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  #12  
Old 06-26-2013, 05:40 PM
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At your altitude your probably looking at something that has a Turbo. Unfortunately the limits your choice of engine and drives the cost higher. Best thing to fo is give my Dad a call he can answer all of these questions for you. The number is 813-634-3370 ask for Ernie. He will most likely answer the phone. He is open 8-4:30 M-F. Closed at lunch for an hour at noon EST. hope this helps.
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  #13  
Old 06-27-2013, 10:49 AM
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Yamaha Genesis Extreme 4 is your best option, and the obvious answer. It has been in production for 11 model years, and at 145-150 HP and weighing in at just 125 pounds it absolutely has the best power-to-weight ratio of any engine manufactured today that is suitable for experimental aircraft use.

Commonly turbocharged, it puts out at least 240 HP constant and 310+ HP peak, with some reports of over 400 HP. Yikes.

It weighs 100 – 150 pounds less than any Subaru type. (Installing one of those is like bringing along a *mother-in-law* passenger you can never get rid of.)

[Honda FIT isn't going to work for you, but I will hit a few points in a comparison of that motor to the Yamaha G4. Honda FIT has been in production less time than the Yamaha G4. It weighs a good 20 pounds more, and puts out just 100 -110 HP.

Viking has one Honda FIT aero conversion motor with ~850 hrs reported on it. I understand they have sold something along the order of 200 engine conversion kits over the 3 years they have been in business, so this is pretty impressive, but it doesn't look like it will be much use to you.

I suspect they are getting their motors from resellers out of Japan that export unusable engines that are banned from use in Japan, having failed emissions testing there. No one can know what made the engine fail the test, no one can tell you how many miles are on it. If you get a motor from a Honda FIT produced 10 years ago, it could easily have 100,000 – 200,000 miles on it.

Are Viking motors completely rebuilt Hondas before they are sold? Who knows, but I seriously doubt it. I think they are guaranteed for 90 days or something, maybe a year?

In my view the Viking gearbox carries insufficient oil reserves and needs to be redesigned to hold more oil – something I doubt Viking will do, as they maintain they are unaware of rumored issues of gear oil getting burned black after just a few hours of use.]

I was talking to a friend the other day about the Yamaha G4. He said was apprehensive about this engine, said it turns too fast (RPM) for his liking; and he thinks that just because they are bullet-proof on a snowmobile that doesn’t necessarily mean they will hold up in an aircraft application.

My friend has never been on a snowmobile and has no idea what it’s like to put 12,000 miles on one of these snow machines w/o ANY engine maintenance whatsoever, save for regular oil changes and tune-ups up to 40,000 km - at which point Yamaha suggests you check valve adjustments.

I ride Yamaha snowmobiles. I also fly the YG4 150HP on my Air Command Tandem. You can meet up with me at Mentone to check it out in August, hope you attend. I may even be legal to take you for a ride.

Now consider this: My sled clutch engages and starts to move the sled at 5,000 RPM. At 7,000 – 8,000 RPM I am loafing along at low trail speeds. It is common for sledders to run these machines at 9,000-10,000 RPM, and even flat out redline 10,700 RPM, across huge ice-covered lakes for many, many miles, hour after hour, day in and day out. These guys get together on weekends and race each other all over the place, putting thousands of miles on their sleds w/o any breakdowns or troubles every season.

On my Air Command Tandem, with my 68” Warp Drive prop pitched to allow the engine to rev up to 140 HP @ 9500 RPM: I fly 60-65 MPH at 7000 RPM, and 70 at 7500 RPM; at 3600 MSL adjusted for pressure and temperature.

In light of the sledders' use facts I've stated above, does it seem likely that I am flying at any degree of high stress for this engine's "normal" use?

Yamaha G4 isn’t a car engine. It isn't expected to be run at very low stop-and-go conditions, and it isn't intended to be run at 3000 rpms on the expressway typical use. It is a thoroughbred engine that is designed and built to last at the 7,000 – 10,000 RPM flat torque power curve and rev range indefinitely, without so much as a valve adjustment until you hit 400 - 500 hours (25,000 miles on the sled. Note: I’ve never seen a sled for sale with that many miles on it, 12,000 is about the most I’ve seen on an 11-year old Yamaha RX1.)

This engine is taken from the flagship Yamaha RX1 (Apex) snowmobile, and judging by the race win records many teams have put together over the last 10 years, you have no worries about support, parts, endurance, reliability, nor power. This thing is the best, the least expensive, the most durable, and the best power for 125 pounds BY A LONG SHOT. It is THE best manufacturer-supported engine in its class in the world today, bar none.

In closing, my Air Command Tandem weighs 590 lbs, with all fluids, ready to fly, no fuel. My limitation is the structural load limits of the Air Command specifications, with McCutchen 28’ rotor: 1250 pounds.

My useful load is therefore 660 pounds at sea level. With 110 lbs of mogas, add the pilot at 190 pounds, and I can theoretically take off, fly and land safely with a 360 pound passenger.

(Hopefully I will have a chance to try that at Mentone, if I can find a suitable volunteer to ride along. Anyone have a suggestion?)

Good luck with your search, and getting as much info as you can before making up your mind on your choice of gyrocopters and engines. Hope this sheds a bit of light on your dark, empty hangar.

Please feel free to contact me directly for assistance and information regarding Yamaha G4 150HP conversion kits. I have one available for immediate purchase, ready to bolt on to any gyrocopter.

Please email me directly: GTMills@hotmail.com, and put GYROCOPTER or YAMAHA in the subject title.

I can sell you an Air Command Tandem, CLT, Tall-tail, full body pod, hydraulic actuated PTO prerotator, full set of instruments, 28' Dragon Wings, with a 150HP Yamaha G4 engine for $27,750.00. Frame has ~100 hrs TT, engine has 2400 sled miles on it. Frame was rolled at ~65 hours, completely taken apart and rebuilt in 2008, and I have put about 35 hours on it since then. I will deliver it to your airport, and if it won't fly me and your father there, I won't charge you a dime for delivery. I will swap the rotor out for a brand new McCutchen 29' or 30' rotor for another $2500 (price subject to change, depends on the rotor shop now selling the blades - I don't have current pricing as of this writing), and recommend you do that as you are a new pilot trying to land a heavy load at high altitude.

Thank you.

Who is going to train you? I am working on getting my CFI license and may be available to train you in the near future - in this gyrocopter - if you have no one else available.
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Last edited by NoWingsAttached; 06-27-2013 at 12:29 PM.
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  #14  
Old 06-27-2013, 04:12 PM
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Greg,

You compare Yamaha's 11 years in production to Viking's three years as a conversion. How about apples-to-apples? The Fit engine is the latest variation on the 1.5L VTEC that was introduced by Honda in the Civic in 1991. That's 22 years to Yamaha's 11.

Your conversion prototype is low-time, and has yet to be installed by a single customer, compared to Viking's 3+ years and 200 installs.

You have no idea where Eggenfellner buys his engines. He has said they are not assembled by Honda. You present your assumption that they're junkyard motors as fact, and perpetuate the old "failed emission" urban myth about Japanese pull-outs.

The only person we know who's compared the Yamaha four-cylinder and the Viking on the same two-place gyro is Ernie Boyette, who sells the Dominator kits. He apparently concluded the Yamaha was unsuitable, while calling the Viking "the engine we've been waiting for."

There is no basis to assume the track record in the sled will be predictive of life in an aircraft.

You bring anonymous rumors about Viking's gearbox having heat issues, before you've produced one of your own gearboxes for testing.

If it turns out the Yamaha (and the two series gear-reduction units needed to drive a prop) can really live a long life at 7,000-10,000 RPM, it will have the power-to-weight advantage and may turn out to be a great engine. But trash-talking Viking in the meantime is not good salesmanship, especially with guesses and rumors.

Both these engines have much to prove, but Viking is at least three years in the lead at the moment.
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  #15  
Old 06-27-2013, 04:38 PM
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Eggenfellner's track record with his subaru aircraft conversions have a very dismal record for reliabiality,his redrive units were one of the main issues. they were also expensive.

Best regards,eddie.....
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