Apollo AG-1 in full production - Intro prices

[C. Beaty]

There wouldn’t be a nickel’s worth of difference in the handling of any of these gyros if all had the same rotor.

The Magni has a nose heavy rotor that causes the heavy stick and sluggish response.

The others, with extruded blades, are tail heavy, causing a light stick and handling similar to a Chevrolet Corvair.

I doubt if extruded blades can be balanced about their aerodynamic centers with internal nose weights. Not even by using depleted uranium.

[cburg]

Originally Posted by C. Beaty

There wouldn’t be a nickel’s worth of difference in the handling of any of these gyros if all had the same rotor.

Understood.

In addition to the rotor related aspects, I’m more interested in the subtle differences…what and why they are better…beside being lower in cost.

For example: the pre-rotator components and manufacturing precision and repeatability. I noticed there seems to be a lot of hand work (drilling for example) that I would have expected to be done on machining equipment preferably CNC.

[ckurz7000]

Originally Posted by C. Beaty

There wouldn’t be a nickel’s worth of difference in the handling of any of these gyros if all had the same rotor.

Is that a good thing, now, or a bad thing?

-- Chris.

[C. Beaty]

None of the above, Chris.

To copy a Magni requires little originality or technical expertise.

The Magni has no provision for compensating propeller torque and no provision for eliminating throttle-yaw coupling.

I suppose but don’t know that all employ linked rudder-nosewheel steering.

[fara]

Originally Posted by C. Beaty

None of the above, Chris.

To copy a Magni requires little originality or technical expertise.

The Magni has no provision for compensating propeller torque and no provision for eliminating throttle-yaw coupling.

I suppose but don’t know that all employ linked rudder-nosewheel steering.

Chuck:
It seems like you have little respect for Juka or Magni designs? Why do I sense that bias? Because they are European? Just curious really. No penny out of my pocket.

If you are talking about propeller torque effect ... there are many ways to take care of it. Trikes take care of it and they don't even have a tail of any type. Halley has made thousands of trikes since the early 80's and 100's since 1998 with high powered engines (they had Rotax distributorship for their country) and this problem is easily taken care of in airplanes as well and Halley has ~200 airplanes flying around as well. I am sure they know how to take care of propeller torque effect. The most difficult machine to take care of this issue are trikes because of having absolutely no tail. It's the trickiest machine to use high power engines and large propeller but its been done and done quite effectively. In machines that have tails, its rather simple with various easy to implement strategies, all of which are valid. Halley isn't new to this issue.

[C. Beaty]

Most fatal gyroplane tumbles have involved at least an element of torque roll.

Propeller torque compensation can only be achieved aerodynamically; contra rotating props or aerodynamic surfaces in the propeller slip stream. Offsetting the rotor to one side serves a cosmetic purpose, nothing more.

Cierva showed the way more than 80 years ago yet people still die because “designers” don’t understand that angular acceleration = torque/MOI (moment of inertia about the roll axis).

From Cierva Autogiros by Peter W. Brooks:[IMG]AC-35.jpg[/IMG]

[C. Beaty]

More torque compensation:

The upper photo shows the NACA flow straightening vanes, the “cat whisker” like objects just aft of the propeller.

[fara]

Originally Posted by C. Beaty

Most fatal gyroplane tumbles have involved at least an element of torque roll.

Propeller torque compensation can only be achieved aerodynamically; contra rotating props or aerodynamic surfaces in the propeller slip stream. Offsetting the rotor to one side serves a cosmetic purpose, nothing more.

Cierva showed the way more than 80 years ago yet people still die because “designers” don’t understand that angular acceleration = torque/MOI (moment of inertia about the roll axis).

From Cierva Autogiros by Peter W. Brooks:[IMG]AC-35.jpg[/IMG]

Chuck: Torque roll has been taken care of in other categories of aircraft with slight thrust line offset as well as aerodynamic offset, rudder and trim as well as wing incidence or wing length from one to other. Gyroplane has a wing as well. It is the rotor. But you cannot just rely on the wing as everyone who has designed a successful airplane would know. There is a roll/yaw coupling and its stronger with larger effective dihedral. You have to also do something to the rudder, ever so slight.

Are you saying gyroplane designers today do not do that?

[Aviomania]

Originally Posted by fara

Chuck:
It seems like you have little respect for Juka or Magni designs? Why do I sense that bias? Because they are European? Just curious really. No penny out of my pocket.

If you are talking about propeller torque effect ... there are many ways to take care of it. Trikes take care of it and they don't even have a tail of any type. Halley has made thousands of trikes since the early 80's and 100's since 1998 with high powered engines (they had Rotax distributorship for their country) and this problem is easily taken care of in airplanes as well and Halley has ~200 airplanes flying around as well. I am sure they know how to take care of propeller torque effect. The most difficult machine to take care of this issue are trikes because of having absolutely no tail. It's the trickiest machine to use high power engines and large propeller but its been done and done quite effectively. In machines that have tails, its rather simple with various easy to implement strategies, all of which are valid. Halley isn't new to this issue.

This is why we have very few Gyroplane models that are FORGIVING ( not only stable ). Manufactures see a gyro and think... i know airplanes... the gyro is just few pieces of metal.. i can source a rotor... so lets copy this design and make it prettier!!!! (the comment is not intended for any specific manufacturer.. just a general observation).

Stability can be accomplished by several "TRICKS" on a gyroplane, (most by a losing something else.) but once any of the parameters that this "trick" uses disappears ( I.e. reduced G) then the stability also disappears.

A correctly designed frame on the other hand that is designed to follow the rotor's fling path and aerodynamically corrects torque and thrust it will tent to correct it self when you approach a dangerous situation even give you a warning. And the good thing is that such a gyroplane retains its maneuverability and light controls!!!

To archive such a design someone needs "marry" airplane and rotor aerodynamics... something that DelaSierva was expert on.

[kolibri282]

This is why we have very few Gyroplane models that are FORGIVING ( not only stable ). Manufactures see a gyro and think... i know airplanes... the gyro is just few pieces of metal.. i can source a rotor... so lets copy this design and make it prettier!!!! (the comment is not intended for any specific manufacturer.. just a general observation).

From my two visits at AutoGyro I have the impression that they take a markedly different approach. They strive for complete understanding of the peculiarities of a gyro, I think this is part of why they are quite successful. One indication for this different approach is they have contacted researchers to build a complete numerical model of their aircraft. http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32734
Proper modeling is the only way to go, and yes, I am a bit patriotic but NO, I am not on their payroll.

[fara]

Unfortunately, it seems gyroplane industry seems even worse than trikes. Throw 3 people in, get 10 stinking opinions . Oh well. Same s**t, different category.

[fara]

Anyone in Tampa area interested in owning 50% shares in an Apollo AG-1 with Rotax 914, loaded up with MGL Extreme color EFIS, Garmin Aera GPS, Rotax 914 UL, 3-blade Aero prop, landing light, dual controls, Nav and strobe combo LED lights, 16 US Gallon Aluminum gas tank, for $37k (includes Ballistic chute). Gyroplane would be based at Z-Hills or Tampa North.
Also need one more order to fill in the container. Available at introductory prices for now

[Fly Army]

Originally Posted by fara

Anyone in Tampa area interested in owning 50% shares in an Apollo AG-1 with Rotax 914, loaded up with MGL Extreme color EFIS, Garmin Aera GPS, Rotax 914 UL, 3-blade Aero prop, landing light, dual controls, Nav and strobe combo LED lights, 16 US Gallon Aluminum gas tank, for $37k (includes Ballistic chute). Gyroplane would be based at Z-Hills or Tampa North.
Also need one more order to fill in the container. Available at introductory prices for now

Ya know, if you put the other MGL in there than you wouldn't need that Garmin. You could just run ADS-B right to the MGL box.

[SandL]

anyone want to define the middle east ?
oops thread hijack

(from a recognition point of view) ELA also looks the same at first glance , this seems to have a flatter nose and different landing gear struts

Wonder which prerotator they are using and how the gas tank is mounted and filled.
will the rotor touch the tail when sitting still on the ground ?
Will it pass section T ? AN hardware ? stainless frame ? and more
interesting but like the others but costly. Personally I think there is a gap in the market for a $ or £ 30,000, section T, podded, training, 2 seat machine.
maybe competition will start to drive the price down a bit now

[Fly Army]

Originally Posted by SandL

anyone want to define the middle east ?
oops thread hijack

(from a recognition point of view) ELA also looks the same at first glance , this seems to have a flatter nose and different landing gear struts

Wonder which prerotator they are using and how the gas tank is mounted and filled.
will the rotor touch the tail when sitting still on the ground ?
Will it pass section T ? AN hardware ? stainless frame ? and more
interesting but like the others but costly. Personally I think there is a gap in the market for a $ or £ 30,000, section T, podded, training, 2 seat machine.
maybe competition will start to drive the price down a bit now

The two seat Honeybee gyro pretty much answers that call at 34K out the door to include the engine.