Rotary Wing Forum  

Go Back   Rotary Wing Forum > Rotorcraft > General Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #31  
Old 04-21-2012, 11:48 AM
Rotor Rooter's Avatar
Rotor Rooter Rotor Rooter is offline
Dave Jackson
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 2,585
Default

pancho,

Thanks for the information, particularly when you mention the use of pitch to adjust yaw.


Quote:
[Intermeshing configuration] In my opinion it is far superior to the coaxial rotor system, but still very complex. KAMANs are also known for their sluggish response.
I totally agree. Perhaps the appreciation of lateral symmetry comes from the background in fixed wing aircraft.


Dave
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 09-08-2012, 01:56 PM
flugtek flugtek is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: chandler
Posts: 4
Default Weight shift

It gets into shemantics about how hang gliders control vs a gyrocopter.

They are both really changing the lift vector/center of gravity relationship.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 09-08-2012, 02:41 PM
Gyro_Kai's Avatar
Gyro_Kai Gyro_Kai is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: near Frankfurt, Germany
Posts: 2,685
Default

Eventually, yes. So do all other aircraft. But how they achieve it is quite different. A fixed wing reduces lift on one and increases lift of the other wing, thus creating a resultant sum lift which is not perpendicular to the wing-plane and therefore does not go through the CoG. The gyroplane changes the aoa of the revolving blades, therefore, again, creating a difference in lift between both sides.
A trike, however, has equal lift on both sides, but moves the weight out of the lift vector.
This results in quite a lot of differences in behaviour.

Kai.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 09-08-2012, 10:50 PM
Sita's Avatar
Sita Sita is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 740
Default

The balance between lifting surfaces,wings or rotors, needs to be controlled.The result will be the same if this is done by reducing airfoil lift capacity or by "adding" weight on that particular side.
There are the factors of drag -power and time requirements obviously which makes lift capacity chance more attractive I guess.

Basically I guess that every flying machine is controlled by "weight shift" in the broadest sence of the word...................I could be VERY wrong though LOL !!

Cita
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 09-09-2012, 12:53 AM
birdy birdy is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Alice Springs-central Oz.
Posts: 5,340
Default

A coaxial with extremely rigid rotors can have a much smaller gap because the out-of-plane flexure is the limiting concern.
If single rotors arent alowed to flap [ tweeter] wen forward flight is approached, control will be lost.
If counter rotating rotors arent allowed to teeter, there will be extream stress on the structure between them.
If you want to 'force' these unteetered rotors into a different plain, your control structure will need to be 'stress proofed' just as much, but will still be under stress. [ impossibly heavy]
If you 'cyclicly fly' the rotors into their new plain, you have a much greater mechanical advantage.


Every heavier than air craft [cept rockets] is weight shift control. [ you control the direction of the lift force in relation to the center of weight/gravity.]
The term weight shift means just that, you shift the crafts weight in relation to the lifting parts force. This destabilises the lifting surface, and it tilts to the 'heavy' side.
In rotor craft its the same, you shift the lift force [ RTV] and the craft follows.
If the lift force is directly opposing gravity, nothing will change. Move the RTV, and the craft will follow.
__________________
Ignorance is bliss, but only till you realise you were.

VPR, the ultimate.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 09-09-2012, 12:59 AM
birdy birdy is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Alice Springs-central Oz.
Posts: 5,340
Default

The use of undersling is to minimize the vibration in the rotor by attempting to keep the rotor's center of mass on the centerline of the mast.

The use of undersling is to minimize vibration by keepn the rotors center of LIFT in line with the TEETER axis.
__________________
Ignorance is bliss, but only till you realise you were.

VPR, the ultimate.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 09-09-2012, 04:10 AM
C. Beaty C. Beaty is offline
Gold Supporter
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Florida
Posts: 7,216
Default

External gyroscopic force is cancelled in the case of counter rotating rigid rotors. Internally, between rotors, stresses are as expected.

The various flying platforms generally used CR rigid rotors and were adequately controlled by weight shift. Lift dysentery in forward flight also cancels.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 09-09-2012, 11:10 AM
EI-GYRO EI-GYRO is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Posts: 1,548
Default

Whatever about the weight-shift/cyclic debate, that airframe is either
a Hafner Rotachute, or a very close derivation.

If you cross a Rotachute with a FA330, you get an early Bensen.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 09-09-2012, 12:00 PM
C. Beaty C. Beaty is offline
Gold Supporter
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Florida
Posts: 7,216
Default

And however these machines are controlled, whether Cierva’s first, controlled by tilting the airframe with elevators and ailerons, or Bensen’s first, controlled with an overhead stick tilting the rotor spindle via a spherical roller bearing; all are a variation of cyclic pitch control.

It is otherwise impossible to tilt a rotor against its own inertia. Flap hinges make cyclic pitch control possible.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 09-09-2012, 08:36 PM
Sita's Avatar
Sita Sita is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 740
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by C. Beaty View Post
And however these machines are controlled, whether Cierva’s first, controlled by tilting the airframe with elevators and ailerons, or Bensen’s first, controlled with an overhead stick tilting the rotor spindle via a spherical roller bearing; all are a variation of cyclic pitch control.

It is otherwise impossible to tilt a rotor against its own inertia. Flap hinges make cyclic pitch control possible.
I guess we could also state that all are a variation of weight shift....kinda like the chicken/egg debate LOL !!


Cita
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 09-10-2012, 12:36 PM
kolibri282's Avatar
kolibri282 kolibri282 is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Duesseldorf
Posts: 1,453
Default

This report seems to cover some sort of c.g. shift control
http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/sho...074#post492074
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 08:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Ad Management plugin by RedTyger