Students and Prospective Students Please read

[All_In]

Originally Posted by Chuck Roberg

Yes

To get a Gyroplane add-on at a Recreational Pilot or higher then yes you need a DPE.

If you want a Sport Pilot add-on for Gyroplane then you need 2 CFI's. One is the recommending CFI. The other CFI administers the oral test and the proficiency check.

You are the best Buddy!!!

OK so we will use our Torrence instructor for private pilots who want the add-on to their PPL and Terry for newbies without any license seeking a sport pilot licensee?

[Texasautogyro]

What a discussion. Speaking only for myself, at the events I fly at I only do lessons if I charge. If I fly youth you can hardly call it a lesson if they are under 15. In this case they are free as they should be or a donation to the local club.

At Mentone this year I flew many training flights for 30 min or more. All from the front hands on. If anyone did not fly I still had time. So complaints from people about not getting time this year from a CFI are not well founded. Some left home early for lack of students.

After Mentone I traveled to Wichita Kansas area for a week and was swamped. This week I am in San Antonio totally booked. Monday back home to Tomball Texas Totally booked.

I am very happy to go to students if they want and do all of the time to help make things happen for them.

Flight schools sometimes just can't see the big picture. I have offered many to train an instructor for fuel only just to get another CFI local to help me. They only passively talk about it but after A year of seeing me fly all the time they are dazed and now take me more serious.

Now a can of worms. I let my students in some cases Solo my MTO when they are ready. I feel this gives them the total confidence they need. You can see such a boost and let's them know I trust them with my Baby.

Now tell me if anyone else jumps out and then says fly me Some laps.

[Dean_Dolph]

Originally Posted by Texasautogyro

.... I let my students in some cases Solo my MTO when they are ready. I feel this gives them the total confidence they need. You can see such a boost and let's them know I trust them with my Baby.

Now tell me if anyone else jumps out and then says fly me Some laps.

Desmon, this tells me that you have a lot of confidence in your machine, your training method and proficiency evaluation. Marion Springer is the only other CFI that I know of who let students solo in the machine they trained in. She said she soloed somewhere around 100 students in her side by side Air Command and not one student put a scratch in it.

[Fly Army]

Originally Posted by Texasautogyro

I let my students in some cases Solo my MTO when they are ready. I feel this gives them the total confidence they need. You can see such a boost and let's them know I trust them with my Baby.

Now tell me if anyone else jumps out and then says fly me Some laps.

Desmond,
That's they way I used to do it in the fixed wing world with my students. It's just like building a treehouse - at some point you have to trust your work. BTW that was me trying to schedule with you last week when I was in town to get my "beatings" over at the Continental Simulator. I'll try again next month as IAH will be my new base for awhile.
Fly Safe,
Randy

[Chuck Roberg]

Originally Posted by Dean_Dolph

Desmon, this tells me that you have a lot of confidence in your machine, your training method and proficiency evaluation. Marion Springer is the only other CFI that I know of who let students solo in the machine they trained in. She said she soloed somewhere around 100 students in her side by side Air Command and not one student put a scratch in it.

Don Randle would solo students in his Air Command. I would solo transitioning students in my Gyro with a Pilots Certificate.

[Resasi]

As an Instructor who has soloed many students, and trusted enough that my training is sound enough for them not to kill themselves, I think that trusting them not to ding the machine should be a relatively easy add-on. if you don't trust them in your machine what does it say about your training.

I will qualify that by saying, my student from ab initio, a building is only as good as it's foundations. And yes, there are some students who one has to say no to. The ones who regretfully you also have to tell, 'this sport is not for you!'

[All_In]

Originally Posted by Texasautogyro

What a discussion. Speaking only for myself, at the events I fly at I only do lessons if I charge. If I fly youth you can hardly call it a lesson if they are under 15. In this case they are free as they should be or a donation to the local club.

At Mentone this year I flew many training flights for 30 min or more. All from the front hands on. If anyone did not fly I still had time. So complaints from people about not getting time this year from a CFI are not well founded. Some left home early for lack of students.

After Mentone I traveled to Wichita Kansas area for a week and was swamped. This week I am in San Antonio totally booked. Monday back home to Tomball Texas Totally booked.

I am very happy to go to students if they want and do all of the time to help make things happen for them.

Flight schools sometimes just can't see the big picture. I have offered many to train an instructor for fuel only just to get another CFI local to help me. They only passively talk about it but after A year of seeing me fly all the time they are dazed and now take me more serious.

Now a can of worms. I let my students in some cases Solo my MTO when they are ready. I feel this gives them the total confidence they need. You can see such a boost and let's them know I trust them with my Baby.

Now tell me if anyone else jumps out and then says fly me Some laps.

...And you are the MAN = U-ROCK for traveling so much and we appreciate you more than you know!!!

[Texasautogyro]

Originally Posted by Fly Army

Desmond,
That's they way I used to do it in the fixed wing world with my students. It's just like building a treehouse - at some point you have to trust your work. BTW that was me trying to schedule with you last week when I was in town to get my "beatings" over at the Continental Simulator. I'll try again next month as IAH will be my new base for awhile.
Fly Safe,
Randy

I am sorry things did not work out when you called. Gyro training is all I do full time and will be sure to try to help in any way.

We have a great group of PRA CFI's around. Any one of them are qualified to do a safe and thorough job.

[Roundwing]

Originally Posted by Fly Army

Really the biggest overall stumbling block to our whole dilemma is the lack of the ability to rent a gyro. That is where our we differ from our other flying brethren and is this sports single biggest detractor IMHO. Think about it, you can obtain a pilot license to fly an airplane or even a helicopter WITHOUT HAVING TO BUY OR BUILD ONE YOURSELF ! Imagine where fixed wing general aviation would be today if this was the case in their world ?

I agree with FA.

What ever is holding up the regulations for the FAA to approve certification of Sport pilot gyroplanes needs to be settled so that factory built machines can be purchased and then used for instruction and rental.

This the the major stumbling block for our sport to grow.

Having met and talked with Kai Bode in Germany and seeing the number of factory built gyros over there for him to rent was an eye opener.

There are a lot of people of who would like to fly gyros but have no desire to build their own and put up with the hassle of storage and maintenance.

Rick

[Brent Drake]

At this time I'm not sure of any manufacturer that is trying to get a gyroplane certified. It's very expensive and time consuming.

[Fly Army]

Originally Posted by Brent Drake

At this time I'm not sure of any manufacturer that is trying to get a gyroplane certified. It's very expensive and time consuming.

Which is frustrating when you think about it because the only thing fixed wing LSA's have to do is claim that their production methods and facilities subscribe to the ASTM standards and BOOM - they're in business ! What could be more simple and business friendly ? Not so for gyros. Back in 2007 when I flew a Magni with Greg Greminger I know he was fighting for this but I'm not sure whatever became of it. Sounded like a real battle to me back then.

[Resasi]

Certifying a gyro anywhere these days is tough...and very expensive. Ask Chris who was intimately concerned with the certificatation of the AC10 in Austria. How many manuals, the paperwork concerned. It was huge.

How does that relate to possible returns? In the US possibly some as a kit built experimental. UK everything is at a standstill. And that goes for most of the major Europen manufacturer's products.

Bad times!

SA, Australia, and Europe possibly the main target. USA, very large, but, certification? UK certification?

Where will the most machines sell? How much will the gyro manufacturer have to pay to sell there? That is the bottom line.

At present the US certification process is difficult, the UK's section T, which the AC20 was built to conform to, very expensive in relation to how many could be sold there.
Which leaves the previously mentioned places as being where autogyro flying is expanding.

[Doug Riley]

To clarify a bit about U.S. certification: a standard type certificate (STC) is extremely expensive to obtain, but it can be done with enough money at hand. The McCulloch J-2 and Air & Space 18A both are certified under this system.

Launching a gyro as a factory-finished light sport aircraft (LSA) is not expensive/difficult; it's impossible. The FAA does not allow LSA gyros. Period.

Greg's efforts to change the FAA's mind about this lasted for years. He may still be at it, quietly.

The effort faced huge challenges because (1) people within the government regulatory community pointed to the awful historic safety record of homebuilt gyros as evidence that we yahoos didn't know what we were doing, and (2) there seemed to be a lack of consensus among those already in the gyro kit/training business about how to improve safety. We had silly arguments among ourselves in which a certain element claimed that horizontal stabilizers were unnecessary if not "dangerous." We proposed test standards that turned out not to be 100% effective at smoking out known unstable gyros. Some competent designer-manufacturers felt that a standard without a prescription for stabilizer location and size was bound to fail.

The last I heard about the process was that the FAA said: "Implement your proposed standards on homebuilt gyros for now. Let's see if adherence to your standards improves the safety record among the homebuilts. Then we can talk about allowing LSA gyros."

[Brent Drake]

Originally Posted by Doug Riley

To clarify a bit about U.S. certification: a standard type certificate (STC) is extremely expensive to obtain, but it can be done with enough money at hand. The McCulloch J-2 and Air & Space 18A both are certified under this system.

Launching a gyro as a factory-finished light sport aircraft (LSA) is not expensive/difficult; it's impossible. The FAA does not allow LSA gyros. Period.

Greg's efforts to change the FAA's mind about this lasted for years. He may still be at it, quietly.

The effort faced huge challenges because (1) people within the government regulatory community pointed to the awful historic safety record of homebuilt gyros as evidence that we yahoos didn't know what we were doing, and (2) there seemed to be a lack of consensus among those already in the gyro kit/training business about how to improve safety. We had silly arguments among ourselves in which a certain element claimed that horizontal stabilizers were unnecessary if not "dangerous." We proposed test standards that turned out not to be 100% effective at smoking out known unstable gyros. Some competent designer-manufacturers felt that a standard without a prescription for stabilizer location and size was bound to fail.

The last I heard about the process was that the FAA said: "Implement your proposed standards on homebuilt gyros for now. Let's see if adherence to your standards improves the safety record among the homebuilts. Then we can talk about allowing LSA gyros."

Thanks Doug for the great post. Right to the point.

[Fly Army]

Originally Posted by Doug Riley

To clarify a bit about U.S. certification: a standard type certificate (STC) is extremely expensive to obtain, but it can be done with enough money at hand. The McCulloch J-2 and Air & Space 18A both are certified under this system.

Launching a gyro as a factory-finished light sport aircraft (LSA) is not expensive/difficult; it's impossible. The FAA does not allow LSA gyros. Period.

Greg's efforts to change the FAA's mind about this lasted for years. He may still be at it, quietly.

The effort faced huge challenges because (1) people within the government regulatory community pointed to the awful historic safety record of homebuilt gyros as evidence that we yahoos didn't know what we were doing, and (2) there seemed to be a lack of consensus among those already in the gyro kit/training business about how to improve safety. We had silly arguments among ourselves in which a certain element claimed that horizontal stabilizers were unnecessary if not "dangerous." We proposed test standards that turned out not to be 100% effective at smoking out known unstable gyros. Some competent designer-manufacturers felt that a standard without a prescription for stabilizer location and size was bound to fail.

The last I heard about the process was that the FAA said: "Implement your proposed standards on homebuilt gyros for now. Let's see if adherence to your standards improves the safety record among the homebuilts. Then we can talk about allowing LSA gyros."

Yes, thanks for posting this. Brings me up to speed on the problem. How about this then - we point at the Europeans Magni, Auto-Gyro, ELA etc and say to the FAA "Looks like they're doing as well as or better than any of the Fixed Wing LSAs , why hold us back and hold yourselves back from creating additional inspector positions ?". Just a random thought.