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#256
08-07-2012, 09:18 PM
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Denis it was a pleasure to finally meet you. I am excited that your pre-rotator worked as expected and wait patiently to hear what RRPM you achieve after your engine break in.
Russ 
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#257
08-08-2012, 03:19 PM
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Denis, somehow I missed your hornet build. I sat down after lunch to post something & got onto your thread & haven't stopped reading till now.
Wow what a work of art. I think that bloke said it right when he covered his up with a tarp & moved it to the back of the shed after reading your build thread. I feel a bit like that to now. Thanks a lot man! (just kidding).  Really nice work.
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#258
08-12-2012, 02:28 PM
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So Close!!!
Hey everybody!
Kiwi, Thanks! I really appreciate your coments! Russ, Yes, It was such a pleasure to meet you (my biggest fan) as well! :-) I will difinitely have to find a way to stop by and visit you the next time I am visiting my sister in Washington! Bryan, Yep, I still got your contact info and will contact you as soon as I have a chance to get to update my radio holder design. Leigh, as always, Thanks! Stan, You're right, we had many "close encounters" at Mentone, but I wish we would have had a chance to chat for a while... Next year I'll make sure I corner ya for a bit! Well, here is the latest.......... Yesterday, the Chapter 17 group hosted a small fly-in at the Forest Lake airport. We had a good gathering of machines there.  I was really hopeful that this would be the day that my machine would take to the air! Long ago, I designated Chuck Freese (Our club president) as my test pilot. Chuck has a ridiculous amount of time in all sorts of rotorcraft. I trust him completely. Earlier in the week, I was having troube getting my engine up to max rpm. We re-pitched the prop and that seemed to do the trick. I'll have to dial in the carbs and the prop just a little more in the future, but for now I am close...Very close. I had also mentioned before that I was worried about how to hook up the tach. I have a Nippon-Denso ignition which doesn't have the tach output wire like the ducatti.... I made a much bigger deal out of this than was necessary. I talked to a tech at MGL. He simply suggested hooking it up to one of the ac putput wires. Well, once i figures out the number of pulses it was putting out per rev (Which happens to be 4) the gauge seems to be very responsive! I started the engine up and headed out to the taxiway to see what it felt like. I was pleased! Rolling the machine around in my shop, I was previously concerned about the turn radius. The springs on my steering rods allowed the front wheel to lag behind my pedal inputs. However, when I got out on the taxiway, the prop blast on my tall tail really shoved the back end around! I was getting about a 6' turn radius. Not bad! Now I have to consider if I really do want to go differential braking or not...We'll see. Then, It was Chucks turn. After a good pre-flight, Chuck was ready for some taxi testing and maybe work into some crow hops if everything felt good. He climbed in and headed out.    I was running out to get down the runway to a place where I could get some good photos. I snapped a picture as he began the prerotate.  The good news...The prerotator works!!! The bad news, It works a little too well! Chuck was trying to finesse the blades up to speed. While I was watching from a distance, I was thinking...Wow, those are really coming up to speed fast! Then, I saw something fly off to the side of the machine. The prerotator belt had broken. It seems that between the good leverage I have on my "collective" to engage the belt, and the good wrap I have on my drum and driven pulley, this seems to be too much power too quickly for the belt to handle. The belt got torn in half. No other damage however. Too bad I did not have a spare. I have a few ideas to help limit the engagement speed. I'll post those as I go. I'm convinced that this system is going to work well, I just have to control the engagement better. I do not have my ring gear sensor hooked up yet. I will get that done this week. If that was working , then one could see the rrpms come up and give a little better feel over the rotor acceleration. Anyway, this seemed to put a end to yesterday's test. Chuck felt bad, but I was happy to get as far as we did. Well, we did not want to give up yet... To all the people who have said in the past "You can't hand start Dragon Wings" Boy oh boy are you ever correct!!!! Chuck was still determined to get that machine off the ground. So we made a couple more attempts to get the blade spinning. But even with the assistance of the prop blast from another members fixed wing ultralight, we didn't have much luck. The Dragon wings just died down too quickly.  Oh well. Next time. A few things I was to complete before the next test: Twist Throttle.... I still really like the feel of this, but there is quite a bit of fatigue to hold it open against the pull of the two carb springs. I am going to add a counter-balance spring to balance out some of this force, and then I think it will be fine. Rotor Tach.... I need to get the pick-up sensor mounted and tested. This is so much fun!!! I'll keep ya all posed! Denis
__________________
Denis Schoemaker Mankato, MN PRA# 36955 Minnesota Chapter #17 Hornet N821LD Last edited by robo_nipsy; 09-23-2012 at 01:18 PM.
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#259
08-12-2012, 03:38 PM
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Dennis so sorry.
Dragon wings can be hand started but at a huge effort, I was priviliged to fly our machine having completed training just before we finished, but sometimes that doesn't happen. Expectation can be huge pressure. It will happen.
__________________
Leigh.
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#260
08-12-2012, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
__________________
Friends don't let friends drive pitch or torque over unstable gyros.
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#261
08-13-2012, 02:15 AM
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Very well Jeff.
Without a prerotator, during early group training with three or more gyros taking turns down the runway, I was always glad of prop wash to help keep my rotor turning. It made life much easier. Those rotors however were Rotorhawks, much easier to keep going than Dragon Wings. It can be done though. Phil hand starting his Gyrocopter rotorblades. - YouTube
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Leigh.
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#262
08-13-2012, 03:33 AM
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Jeff,
Leigh, I should clarify something here.... Yes, the prop wash was a huge benefit to trying to get the blades going. Forest Lake is normally a very quite airport. On that day however, there was a constant stream of tandem skydivers going up, and I beileve there was another fixed wing gathering going on there as well. It was busy. The photo I show of us using the fixed wing for the prop blast was taken off to the side of the active. There was a small drainage ditch which we would have needed to cross, or a bit of a round about way on the taxi way to get out to the active after we got them spinning. So, I should rephrase what I said. (And agree with Leigh) Yes, they can be hand started, but with GREAT effort! If the airport had been less busy, and we could have done this spin-up out on the active, then yes, I think we could have gotten them started, put the coals to it and headed down the runway and got them up to flying speed. For an initial test however, this did not seem like the way to "ease" into it. That's ok. I'm thrilled with what we accomplished and it will test out for the best. Soon...Very soon! Denis
__________________
Denis Schoemaker Mankato, MN PRA# 36955 Minnesota Chapter #17 Hornet N821LD
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#263
08-14-2012, 02:01 AM
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Dennis know the scenario. Was very frustrated at Henstridge, near Yeovill in Southern England, the first airport where I began gyro training. The airport manager, radio operator perhaps overly sensitive about noise, limits on the number of circuits we could do, a single runway, hangers that created rolling turbulence in certain wind directions, and gyros were definitely second class citizens having to give way at all times to fixed wing activity. Waiting times for landing and taking off traffic, meant a lot of the training period could be consumed just sitting waiting for traffic on the ground.
Our group then went to RAF Rissington up in the Cotswolds. Multiple long runways, huge area of perimeter track also suitable for take-off and landing on. The RAF used it on weekends and occasionaly during the week which meant that there were days when we had the place to ourselves and could, and did on some occasions have up to six or seven students, and up to three instructors and assistants working the field at one time. A very privileged time for us and great opportunity to learn on a single without a prerotator. Either had someone I could go behind for some propwash, or vast ammount of available tarmac for me to accelerate down simply to get my rotor rpm back up before circling back to wait for my turn for take off on the active runway. Delighted your prerotator looks as though it works well, do keep us up to speed on how you sort the engagement problem. Have fun with the training, it will be a special time.
__________________
Leigh.
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#264
08-14-2012, 02:19 AM
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Some thoughts on opposing springs.
Hello Denis,
It was nice to meet you and see your beautiful aircraft at Mentone. Be careful when using an opposing spring on the throttle to lessen the pull. Often the throttle friction changes over time and the throttle may not close properly. It is important that the throttle shut properly with the engine running. You may be able to accomplish what you want by going to a desmodronic or push pull throttle that will ensure the throttle will shut in spite of the light or opposing springs. You can also get a throttle grip with a little lever that makes it easier to turn and you can use a drag on the throttle so it is easier to hold in place. As I read this it doesn’t make a lot of sense to someone who is not familiar with various motorcycle throttles. If it doesn’t make sense, please ask and I will elaborate. Thank you, Vance
__________________
Vance Breese
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#265
08-14-2012, 03:20 AM
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Vance,
It was so nice to meet and talk to you as well! I love listening to your stories! Looking forward to the next time! Your comments make perfect sense. I do have the friction disks on there to help hold the throttle in position, but this only adds to the required force needed to advance the throttle. I will be careful with the counter balance spring. I am not looking to create a "balanced" system. I just want to remove a small percentage of the force required. Thanks again, and I am so very much looking forward to the next time we meet! Denis
__________________
Denis Schoemaker Mankato, MN PRA# 36955 Minnesota Chapter #17 Hornet N821LD
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#266
08-14-2012, 04:04 AM
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Couple of comments....
1. one thing that might help your belt last longer, is to coat it real good with corn starch. This will allow some slippage and keep the belt from being too grabby. It's what we use on the belt on dominators and it works 2. I still think you would be better off with a traditional throttle quadrant. for several reasons. It is what you will use while you train.... it has a set it and leave it feature so you don't have to keep your hand on it at all times, which is usefull because you really don't need to make power changes much in flight so why have to hold the throttle open the whole time?.... and lastly, having the throttle attached to the pre rotator, well if by some chance you hit turbulence in flight, or just accidentally pull on the " collective " while working the throttle, it can try to engage your pre rotator system while in flight, and although this may not hurt anything, there is a small chance it could and at the very least it could damage your pre rotator system. I love neat innovative things on gyros, but some things do cause more trouble than they solve. Ask Chopper Gabor about some of the innovations things on his gyro that he was warned about, ask him how those things panned for him as he began to make his first flights... Good luck, it was a beauty, wish I could have flown it for you at Mentone Quote:
__________________
...Ask me and I will tell you..if you don't want to know then don't ask.
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#267
08-14-2012, 04:53 AM
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Quote:
 I pulled the throttle back and the landing gear having only springiness in them and no dampening of any sort did some "duck jump" not duck walk and that had sufficiently scared the $hit out of me So as we speak I am turning out the new landing gear that is conventional coil over shock triangle type. I agree with the twist throttle statement. I have tried it too. It felt more natural for a helicopter pilot. You don't fly more than you would in a heli so fatigue is not an issue. It is just the interchangeability of your mind. Once you get used to flying that you'll suck at trying to fly others' gyros with the regular quadrant. But again you may never want to do that...... By the way Denis without guys like you and I and a lot of others out there trying new stuff spending our own time and money and effort ..... this sport would not evolve any. So good for you! Major kudos my friend! Hat's off to you 
Last edited by choppergabor; 08-14-2012 at 05:10 AM.
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#268
08-14-2012, 03:04 PM
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Ron,
Thank you for the input. Much appreciated. I agree about the risk of engaging the PR during flight. This is one item that I wanted to get done on the machine before Mentone, but ran out of time. I am going to install a spring loaded latch to the "collective". Before takeoff, I will move a small lever which will allow this handle to be raised slightly and the catch will then be held open. After the pre-rotation has been completed, and the handle is returned to it's lowest position, the catch will snap back into location and prevent the handle from being raised for the remainder of the flight. Hopefully I'll have this done in a week or so and I'll post some pictures. As for the twist grip, I really want to test this out a little further before I change too many things. Once I get the counter balance spring in there, and get my friction disks set correctly, this too can be a hands-off type arrangement. If it feels awkward at all, I will take your advise, and its "outta here". I'll also see how Chuck feels about it after the initial flight. I was very close to taking you up on your offer to fly it for me at Mentone, but since I had only started the engine for the first time literally hours earlier, I didn't feel it (or I) was ready. And, with the issues I mentioned earlier (PR Belt, Prop pitch, engine break-in, Tach inputs) it wasn't ready.... Sure would have been cool though! Thanks ok...This is prolonging the excitement! It's kind of like being "next" after waiting in line for a long time!!! It's almost more exciting than being "your turn"! Thanks for the corn starch idea. We were actually playing with this on Paul's Dominator while at Mentone. He had a PR belt soften from a small hydraulic leak and had to get a new one from Ernie. He had the grabbing problem as well, so he headed into the big town for the corn starch. There was mention that this be thrown on the belt just after a hard pre-rotate and the belt was warm... Do you think this matters? Can it just be applied at room temp? I can't imagine that it would penetrate that much further into warm rubber versus ambient. Gabor, Thanks man. I appreciate the support and comments. I agree that fresh ideas keep progress moving forward. But at the same time, I will not turn a deaf ear to the recommendations of Ron or anyone else with his experience. He had mentioned his concerns about the throttle to me at Mentone in a very constructive manner. I am taking everybody's comments under heavy consideration. I am being stubborn for now, but if I realize, or am convinced that my stubbornness is actually stupidity, then I will gladly change my ways. One of my favorite lines.... David St Hubbins / Nigel Tufnel (This is Spinal Tap) "It's such a fine line between stupid and uh......Clever.......Yeah, and clever!" Well, I'm headed outside now to get it unloaded from the trailer and back in the shop so I can perform some of these "tweaks" The next attempt for lift off is scheduled for the 25th of this month. (1 1/2 weeks!) Later, Robo
__________________
Denis Schoemaker Mankato, MN PRA# 36955 Minnesota Chapter #17 Hornet N821LD
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#269
08-15-2012, 03:58 AM
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I always coated my belt as it sat... this should help alot.
One more thing to consider about the throttle....... if your pull starting the engine, you want to make 100 percent sure that the throttle is set to idle and has ZERO chance of advancing forward on you by accident or by some mechanical failure. Because when you pull start your engine, if your not in the seat and seat belted in, you CAN get run over and KILLED by your prop. It's happened to Two different people ive known in the last 10 years. A normal throttle set up, the springs in the carbs force the engine to idle. The throttle quadrant normally has a friction screw that allows you to make enough friction so the throttle will stay where you set it, but in the case of a failure, the engine would return to idle. Im sure your designing in something to that effect, but if not, I hope you do now. Gabor, you had a few things such as your landing gear and how your tail was built and rigged that raised concerns and you were warned it could cause problems. Ultimately both did cause problems. For someone like Greg Spicola, or myself, who have 10+ years of experience flying gyros and who have experience flying so many different makes and models, it isn't so bad to test out a unproven landing gear design or a twist throttle type set up, etc.... But for rookie pilots who are likely to do their first ever solo flight in a gyro in their own unproven gyro.... seems pretty freakin dumb to me! ESPECIALLY when they have been warned that there could be problems. I am not calling you or Denis dumb now.. so don't you guys get all mad at me! But imagine how you will feel if you did end up having problems, even a simple roll over without injury can be extremely costly, replacing rotor blades airframe parts rotorhead rebuild etc.... Anyway, I wont mention it no more. And congrats on that being the ONLY thing I had issue with! Usually even on a kit built gyro, I spot half a dozen things or more the builder did wrong.
__________________
...Ask me and I will tell you..if you don't want to know then don't ask.
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#270
08-15-2012, 04:20 AM
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Hahaaaaaaaaaaaaa call me dumb I deserve it! That is exactly why I said to Denis that ultimately he will be his own test pilot for his own ideas. To be quite fair though I personally know of a lot of pilots wrecking just as many "proven" designs on solo or even after. Sure it sounds dumb but so does racing motorcycles between freaking trees on a slippery muddy 1 foot wide cutouts going 1000000 miles per hour!
Eat your heart out LOL still love ya...
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