Development of New Rotorblades and Manufacturing Techniques

[Heron]

Gotcha on the Zumba thing ACE!
I think most good blades will be pretty close in performance and appearance, but the key now is manufacturing processes, better quality and lower price.
China can deliver both!
Heron

[AirScooter]

Dennis,

Have them whip up a couple of 618 mufflers.... Stamping looks nice. The end stampings of the muffler are the hard part everything else is easy. They are like a flat oval shape, sort of.

Better yet just reproduce the whole engine. That would be a home run.

Scott

[DennisFetters]

Originally Posted by AirScooter

Dennis,

Have them whip up a couple of 618 mufflers.... Stamping looks nice. The end stampings of the muffler are the hard part everything else is easy. They are like a flat oval shape, sort of.

Better yet just reproduce the whole engine. That would be a home run.

Scott

Maybe someday!! My friend Guido Polidoro of the old Arrow Engine company has a beautiful light 150HP flat-four liquid cooled supercharged 4-stroke designed, and we would love to find someone here with the money and guts to let us build them.

Who rules the engine, rules the market.

[Heron]

Mr. Fetters
what is the ball park investment to get those engines going?
thanks
Heron

[automan1223]

Dennis,

You get an A on your efforts for working with those pirates but I have never been fond of any foam filled blades since my RAF blades only held a balance for about 5 hours before centrifugal forces started squeezing the cores of the blades towards the tips, (of course not equally across the length of the blade). Unless the foam core you have for final product is real solid "solid" once shaked and baked, I would wager a guess those blades while looking good on paper will suffer numerous balance issues down the road, on in our case, in the pattern.

J

[DennisFetters]

Originally Posted by automan1223

Dennis,

You get an A on your efforts for working with those pirates but I have never been fond of any foam filled blades since my RAF blades only held a balance for about 5 hours before centrifugal forces started squeezing the cores of the blades towards the tips, (of course not equally across the length of the blade). Unless the foam core you have for final product is real solid "solid" once shaked and baked, I would wager a guess those blades while looking good on paper will suffer numerous balance issues down the road, on in our case, in the pattern.

J

WOW, that would be a problem!! No, from 20 years of building rotorblades with a foam core, I have never had a problem like that!!

I can only imagine that RAF must have used a two-part casting foam and casted it to shape first, or poured it into the blade after lay-up. I'm only guessing here not knowing their procedure. that would explain the instability and migration.

I use a German made structural foam core. The way they make it is; it first looks like a sheet of very hard white plastic, then they heat it up to a high temperature and put it into a vacuum chamber. The vacuum makes it expand. The more they expand it under the high heat and vacuum, the lower the density.

So when I get it, it comes in stabilized sheets, which we have to cut to rectangles and machine the profile onto the foam. You can lay a section on the ground and stand on it and not be damaged. It also don't get soft again until 300F.

It's the same thing I used in the Mini-500 blades, which none had any kind of trouble..... ever.

[DennisFetters]

Originally Posted by Heron

Mr. Fetters
what is the ball park investment to get those engines going?
thanks
Heron

It can be a biiiiig ballpark, depending on if you know what you are doing. You take some of these companies developing an engine, and most of the time it's the first one they ever developed and their first real manufacturing experience, so it will take truckloads of money to help them overcome all their mistakes and to buy them the extra time needed to do that. Honestly, they don't even know what they don't know.....

On the other hand, someone like Mr. Guido Polidoro has over 30 years of designing and manufacturing of his own engines. He has made all the mistakes in the past and now knows how to avoid them.... as with anyone that has hands-on experience in a technical field. So, if he were to have the proper financing, he could develop the engine much faster and know the mistakes to avoid, and you would have an engine available for testing in a matter of 10 to 14 months. He has found the heads and cylinders off of an existing well proved engine that would be a perfect start, but needing to build a crankcase and crankshaft, and their attachments. Once it's proved to work, then he could easily duplicate the parts for production, saving lots of time and money.

Sure, I made it should soo easy? Bada boom bada bing, you got yourself an engine!!...... I know, but that's where experience does come in.

How much Money??? The cost of the job would be around $400,000USD to build a few perfect prototype engines that you could give out to some hand-picked aircraft companies to try out. After, it would take another $400,000 to $600,000USD to put it all into a limited production where you could build them and warranty them for a price around a Rotax 912 and still make enough money to where a guy could get his investment back within 4 to 5 years. Well, we would need to add something as a reward bonus in this mix for the old Gueed, he don't work for free.

But, once you develop this engine, you will rule the aviation industry. New aircraft are designed to the engines available. Now imagine once a 150hp affordable and dependable engine becomes available to the industry, how many kit manufacturers are going to jump in and start designing new aircraft that would use that engine, and how many kit manufacturers will retrofit it into old designs. That's what happed when Rotax made engines available, right?

That's why I say.... whoever rules the engine, rules the industry.

[Heron]

As you all know, Brasil is the eight ball at the moment . . .
Some spanyards are investing here big time and a childhood friend is their contact.
Lets say 2 million dollars will put the company moving?
There are facilities already producing parts here and all the technology available, my guess is that the engine will be pretty close to something good and low risk will be present after the prototype is out!
Then comes the marketing plan!
thanks
Heron

[DennisFetters]

Originally Posted by Heron

As you all know, Brasil is the eight ball at the moment . . .
Some spanyards are investing here big time and a childhood friend is their contact.
Lets say 2 million dollars will put the company moving?
There are facilities already producing parts here and all the technology available, my guess is that the engine will be pretty close to something good and low risk will be present after the prototype is out!
Then comes the marketing plan!
thanks
Heron

There are two ways to spend 2 million dollars.... the smart way and the expensive way.

Yes, a person like Guido Polidoro has the experience to put together the project for under 2 million Dollars. The question is always.... are the investors smart enough to allow him to do it? In other words, will they trust him as to what he needs and willing to provide it when he needs it, or will they quibble over everything taking a large part of his time to justify his needs, which will slow the project and even jeopardize it's success?

Here in China, that is my biggest problem. They hire me to setup their operation and pay me great sums of money due to my successful experience, and yet question and interfere in every decision I make, taking 3 or 4 times longer to complete. Finally, and most of the time, the people that the big boss put in charge will intentionally do the opposite of what I say just to show everyone he is the one in charge, even when the results are always bad. Yes, it is aggravating, So I cover my a$$ with an email explaining why it didn't work and I collect my pay. When the big boss comes around wondering why progress is so slow, I show him the emails and explain again that my way is a proved way that experience taught me, and the people that he has running the show lacks experience. Sure, they learn from their mistakes, but then isn't it kind of stupid to pay for me to be around?

My point is, that the "low risk" factor does not necessarily only to be of the technical nature. your investors have to have the attitude to "trust but verify" the technical team, and let them do their job and give them what they need to do it.

Funny how an investor wants you to "run a race and winning is the only option", and yet they always want to cut off your legs at the beginning through chiseling you down on price and skimping on the equipment you need.

[rotor46]

Originally Posted by DennisFetters

There are two ways to spend 2 million dollars.... the smart way and the expensive way.

Yes, a person like Guido Polidoro has the experience to put together the project for under 2 million Dollars. The question is always.... are the investors smart enough to allow him to do it? In other words, will they trust him as to what he needs and willing to provide it when he needs it, or will they quibble over everything taking a large part of his time to justify his needs, which will slow the project and even jeopardize it's success?

Here in China, that is my biggest problem. They hire me to setup their operation and pay me great sums of money due to my successful experience, and yet question and interfere in every decision I make, taking 3 or 4 times longer to complete. Finally, and most of the time, the people that the big boss put in charge will intentionally do the opposite of what I say just to show everyone he is the one in charge, even when the results are always bad. Yes, it is aggravating, So I cover my a$$ with an email explaining why it didn't work and I collect my pay. When the big boss comes around wondering why progress is so slow, I show him the emails and explain again that my way is a proved way that experience taught me, and the people that he has running the show lacks experience. Sure, they learn from their mistakes, but then isn't it kind of stupid to pay for me to be around?

My point is, that the "low risk" factor does not necessarily only to be of the technical nature. your investors have to have the attitude to "trust but verify" the technical team, and let them do their job and give them what they need to do it.

Funny how an investor wants you to "run a race and winning is the only option", and yet they always want to cut off your legs at the beginning through chiseling you down on price and skimping on the equipment you need.

The smart way Rotax spend 2 million dollars is in advertising its products. 2 million dollars is chicken feed even in China and let’s say you find a Chinese investor he would like to see his money retuned fivefold and would be utopic manufacturing (uncertified engines) for the experimental markets. Looks like your Chinese employers are trimming your feet’s, once they suck you dry, just another disposable lowai.

[DennisFetters]

Originally Posted by rotor46

Looks like your Chinese employers are trimming your feet’s, once they suck you dry, just another disposable lowai.

Hahaha, yes, they all try!! Everyone wants it all for almost free, can't blame them for trying, but this Lowai don't let them get away with it!!

[Sita]

Originally Posted by rotor46

The smart way Rotax spend 2 million dollars is in advertising its products. 2 million dollars is chicken feed even in China and let’s say you find a Chinese investor he would like to see his money retuned fivefold and would be utopic manufacturing (uncertified engines) for the experimental markets. Looks like your Chinese employers are trimming your feet’s, once they suck you dry, just another disposable lowai.

Disposable,wasn't that exactly what Graham Bell did with Nicola Tesla? He ain't no Chinese,was he ? LOL !!!

Leaving the boss in his dignity while you run the show is probably the biggest challenge Dennis !!!!

Cita

[DennisFetters]

Originally Posted by Cita

Disposable,wasn't that exactly what Graham Bell did with Nicola Tesla? He ain't no Chinese,was he ? LOL !!!

Leaving the boss in his dignity while you run the show is probably the biggest challenge Dennis !!!!

Cita

I have 12 years experience doing business in China. The first two times didn't turn out too well because I came in blind and too honest and forthwith. After that I got a fast education on how to deal with Chinese businessman here, and it's been working out just fine ever since.

It's a great place to do business, and so long as you know what to put into a contract to protect you, the Chinese businessman will honor his deal with you. They are honest people, they just do business differently. Different things are important to them that is important to us, and you need to learn to deal with that.

Yes, here in China we "lowai" or foreigner as they call us, are all disposable. I get paid in one day what one of the best engineers on my team get paid in one month, so sure, they want to only endure that expense for as short of time as possible. Can't blame them for that.

The secret is to always deliver 90% as promised, and the last 10% upon payment, and then to make sure they know that you have more to offer that they will need, and they will keep you around. Once you have nothing else to offer, you are gone.

I have made a good life here in China. People are happy and opportunity is rich. It's a good place I'm proud to call my second home.

[Heron]

The old bait and switch is common in China, or you deliver and be delivered . . .
But I know the most critical part is the prototype and its approval for mass production, after that, the marketeers will take over, it becomes a financial operation.
After that, the existing companies will pour out as many parts as the seller can move!
Quality and price, that is where it is!
Heron

[DennisFetters]

Originally Posted by Heron

But I know the most critical part is the prototype and its approval for mass production, after that, the marketeers will take over, it becomes a financial operation.
After that, the existing companies will pour out as many parts as the seller can move!
Quality and price, that is where it is!
Heron

I agree. Using an experienced man like Guido Polidoro to head the design and prototyping aspect of the operation would have little risk, because he has been designing this engine on paper for 5 years that I know of. He has just been busy with other projects, and may join me again here in China for another project very soon. It all always boils down to the money, and where it is. Brazil would be an interesting place to do a project, nice to dream about it. Problem is, Guido and I don't speak Portuguese, only Spanish!!... hehehe

But honestly, if I could find a rich-fat-cat Chinese investor with the right attitude, I would jump all over that opportunity, because I'm familiar how to do business here and where the right suppliers are for the quality of parts that we would need. But, you never know where the money will take us next.