I need to be legal! Help

[MattPearson]

Ok. I am flying my ultralight gyro right now. I want to get it N numbered as an experimental gyro. If I get training in a fixed wing for my PPL, once I receive my student license and /or my actual PPL, will I be legal to fly my experimental gyro?<br>Thanks

[MattPearson]

Also, once my gyro is N-numbered, can I use it to log flight time to apply towards my PPL, or does all my loggable flight time have to be in a fixed wing?

[Screw]

Matt,<br><br>As I understand it, having a PPL myself, your PPL is adiquite to cover the requirements for flying an experimental aircraft because &quot;Experimental&quot; falls under no &quot;catagory&quot; or &quot;class.&quot;<br><br>However, here the kicker. &nbsp;Say you have a PPL like me. &nbsp;You want to learn to fly gyros. &nbsp;The FAR says for a gyro rating, I need 15 hours of dual time plus 15 hours of cross country.<br><br>I figure in 8-10 hours, I'll have the hang of it. &nbsp;Some folks may feel comfortable sooner, hell it may take me 20 or more hours of dual time. &nbsp;Regardless, if it takes me till 10 hours, all I would lack is another 5 hours of dual and 15 hours cross country at your leasure. &nbsp;To complete the rating the CFI that instructed you will send you to another CFI to check you out. &nbsp;You need not take another written exam since you passed the one getting your PPL, however the CFI giving you the checkride may give you an oral exam.<br><br>Then you can apply for your gyro rating to be added to your SEL.<br><br>To answer you question, a PPL is legal enough to fly experimental &quot;N&quot; numbered gyros and log hours. Any gyro without an &quot;N&quot; number is just considered a vehicle and you cannot log hours.<br><br>That is my understanding.<br>

[Screw]

Also, to my knowledge, you may not use a student licence to fly &quot;N&quot; numbered anything without an instructor.<br><br>And No, you may not log hours in an aircraft that 1) doesn't have an &quot;N&quot; number 2) you must have a PPL or SPL with instructor aboard.<br><br>You can forget fixed wing all together if you like and just get a PPL for gyros, but you'll need to meet the same flight requirements for Fixed wing (as far as dual time, &nbsp;Pilot in Command, and Cross country...pass a written exam and go for a checkride) as a gyro. &nbsp;Since it is difficult for people to do that, it is more common and cheaper to get a fixed wing license (PPL) and comvert to gyro rating.<br><br>Fixed wing lessons are around 50-70 bucks per hour plus instructor, and gyros are around 120 per hour. &nbsp;With all the hours needed for licensing, getting there by way of fixed wing is cheaper.<br><br>As of right now, your flying an ultralight with no license and getting away with it as cheaply as possible. &nbsp;Why are you wanting an &quot;N&quot; number if I may ask?<br><br>Are you looking at getting a bigger gyro that will have to have an &quot;N&quot; number and that's why you want the rating?<br>

[MattPearson]

John,<br> I have learned otherwise about the flying an N numbered aircraft with a student solo sign off. &nbsp;You may fly with a 90 day student solo endorsement from your instructor. &nbsp;I knew about the N number requirement for logging hours. What I am not sure of is if you can fly an experimental aircraft with a student solo endorsement.<br> &nbsp;The reason I want a PPL and an N numbered ship is to curtail the airport bullies who are always bitchin about ultralights. I am also moving my gyro to a controlled airport and even though they are UL friendly, the Ops Officer told me an N numbered aircraft would be &quot;more&quot; welcomed. &nbsp;I also have future plans for bigger gyros and I am going to need a PPL for that.

[Udi]

Matt,<br><br>Your fixed wing CFI can only sign you off for solo flight on the aircraft that he tought you in. &nbsp;If it's a C-152, you're only allowed to fly C-152s. &nbsp;If he checks you out in a C-172 as well, then you may be signed off to fly solo in both 152 and 172. &nbsp;You will need a gyroplane CFI to sign you off for solo flight on a gyroplane.<br><br>Why don't you get your gyroplane PPL first? &nbsp;With your experience, you can do it much faster than in fixed wing.<br><br>Udi<br>

[MattPearson]

I would, but there are no gyro CFIs that are taking new students anywhere near me, and I can't be away from work long enough to travel somewhere to get the training. &nbsp; I guess I am going to have to bust a move on my fixed wing PPL.

[Mike Hook]

I was reading this thread and I am kinda in the same problem. We have a small airport close by but all FW and I want a Gyro ppl. I am looking for the any CFI close to southeastern ohio , near Athens.

Now will the new sport pilot license change all the requirements and should a wait a while longer to start training.

Any comments are welcome, just trying to get off on the right foot.

Thanks,

Mike

[Chuck Roberg]

Hi Mike, First off Sport Pilot WILL NOT change the requirements for a PPL Gyro Certificate. Sport Pilot is a new class of ratings. It just changes the requirements needed to be able to pilot a Light Sport Aircraft.

I would suggest you wait till Sport Pilot becomes a rule, then go from there. I'm not sure what the temperature is in S.E. Ohio right now. But it's probably a little chilly to fly anyway. So I'd just wait.

Now as a suggestion to anyone wanting to become a Sport Pilot. Make sure you have all your &quot;Ducks&quot; in a row. So to speak.

First off if your flying as an ultralight pilot make sure you have some kind of a logbook and you’re keeping track of your hours.

Next, in order to be grandfathered into Sport Pilot you will have to be a member of one of the 3 Ultralight Organizations. Even if your a wannabe at this point I would suggest you join one of them.

The three organizations are; USUA, EAA, ASC. Since USUA does not support Gyro's at this time that leaves EAA or ASC. I happen to be a BFI thru ASC. I'm also a member of EAA. I could be a BFI thru EAA at no cost rather than paying ASC $100/yr. But I chose ASC because I think they better support the Gyro community.

I'll list the requirements from ASC since I have them right here.
You will need to register as a Student Pilot first. Even if you have been flying gyro's for 50 years and have thousands of hours you still need to do this step before you can become a Ultralight registered pilot. (I had my Gyro/FW PPL at the time and I still had to do it).

a). Student waiver/Application signed.
b). Required training given. (This would be if your a zero time student).
c). Pre-Solo written exam.
d). Sent to EAA ASC a Registration Fee of $5 and a copy of the Pre-Solo written test.

You can find the Student Registration form at:
http://www.aerosports.org/student_release.htm

Now for the Pilot requirements.
a). All flight hour and training requirements completed.
b). Pilot written test passed (70%)
c). Oral Test satisfactory (per BFI/AFI manual)
d). Practical Test Satisfactory (per BFI/AFI manual)
e). Signed and completed ASC Pilot Application sent to ASC with a $25 registration fee and the original of the Pilot Written Exam.

Additional requirements for Ultralight Pilot are a Minimum of 10 hrs. total instruction, 3 hrs. supervised solo, 25 take offs and landings.

If you hold an FAA Pilot Certificate, Mininium of 1 hr. flight instruction and an instructor endorsement from an ASC, EAA Ultralight instructor. You also have to be at least 16 years old to solo.

A copy of the Pilot Registration form can be found at:
http://www.aerosports.org/pilot_registration.htm

Now when Sport Pilot becomes a rule, assuming the requirements don't change. What you'll need to do to be &quot;grandfathered&quot; into Sport Pilot. Is take a check ride, a written and oral test with a Sport Pilot CFI or CFI. After Sport Pilot becomes a rule, you will have three years to be “grandfathered” into Sport Pilot. After that time none of your U/L time will count and you will have to start from the beginning if you want to be a Sport Pilot.

You can find out a lot more about ASC at:
http://www.aerosports.org/

Happy flying.

[barnstorm2]

Hi Mike,

My name is Tim O'Connor. I live west of you on the East side of Cincinnati. If you know were the Kenwood Mall is I am just a short distance away.

I take my training from CFI Gary Goldsberry in Greencastle IN. Gary trains on Sundays weather permitting. I drive out there every Sunday in the Spring, Summer and Fall to train and fly with Gary and PRA Chapter 34. They also have great hanger space CHEAP.

I keep my 2-place gyro there and I hanger my single place ultralight at Clermont Co Airport ( I69 ) near Batavia.

PRA Chapter 34 is a GREAT place to train, EAT, meet gyro people, EAT, learn to work on gyros, eat, do hang tests, eat, see a variety of different gyros and fly at the perfect airport for gyro training ( did I mention we also eat alot ? )

You are welcome to come out with me if you want to car pool. My car stays consistently messy so you will just have to deal if that sort of thing bothers you The drive is about 3 hours each way from my house so you have to commit your entire Sunday. I also own a large trailer if you decide to base your gyro there for your training.

Do you have a gyro yet?

The following is a biased statement:

Personally, I think you should go GYRO PPL first. That way you don’t develop any 'bad fixed winger habits' that you will have to unlearn. For some reason people converting from FW to gyro seem to have a more difficult time learning / remembering rotor management.

Let me know!

&quot; Chapter 34 is an eating club that likes to fly &quot; - Doc Jon.

www.prachapter34.com

Chuck, It's never to cold to fly in Ohio 8)

[Mike Hook]

Tim
I do not have a gyo yet , I have been looking around. Just found out about one for sale about 30 mile from here will follow up on the lead. All I know it is a two place gyro.
Spent the afternoon over at the junk yard looking at Subaru's found a EJ-18 and a EJ-22 fuel injected for 250 each. Just out doin the touch and feel thing.

I have been thru Batavia lots of times and yessss EATING is good. Maybe we can hook up later and get some training together on warmerrrrrrr weekends.

Thanks

Mike

[ventana7]

Matt,

I have not checked the FAR's on this but if I remember correctly you cannot receive instruction in a newly N nunmbered aircraft until the 40 hours are flown off. This would mean someone else would have to fly your machine for 40 hrs or you would need to be a licensed pilot to do it yourself. Better check that angle out too.

Rob

[pwendell]

Matt,

There are a couple of issues here. First of all is the the necessary 'test' period for an aircraft receiving a new experimental airworthieness certificate. It is generally 40 hours with an uncertified engine and prop, or 25 hours with a certified engin and prop. However, since you have a UL Gyro that you have, presumably, been flying, it is possible that some or all of this test time could be waived. Logs showing hours flown would be really helpfull, I'm sure.

Second is the issue of receiving training in an aircraft during the 'test' phase. You cannot recieve dual instruction in an aircraft until the necessary hours have been flown off. The FARS are very specific that only the pilot can be in the aircraft while in flight until the testing is over. You can, however, fly the aircraft yourself as a student pilot, with the appropriate solo endorsements. So you could use it for all of your required solo traing while it is still in the test phase.

[barnstorm2]

MIke,

That sounds like a good price on the EJ-22. I have 2, one I bought in Columbus OH with 50k miles for $350 delivered. You can see it in my AirCommand SxS post.

There are a couple of EJ-22's at the PRA 34 hanger one has a Ross redive on it and I think they might be for sale. I asked about the price of some of the parts and the price was fair but not a bargin so if you are looking to get on the cheap ( which is what I have to do ) then I would just keep hunting like you are.

There is also a single place Bensen for sale but you would need to add an engine and HStab. One cool thing about it is it has smoke generators built in for airshows!! ( or pretend dogfights ;D )

Let me know about the 2-place for sale. If you would like me to look at it with you I would be glad to. You won't have to worry about competition because I already have a 2-place project and I am broke!

I might be able to be a co-invester in another 2-place but only if my girl-friend does not find out :

Someday I would like to become a BFI and I am looking into the requirements now. However, unlike my local ultralight buddies I won't take on any students unless they can't make it so see Gary and I have a couple of hundred hours under my belt and Gary assures me I am ready to deal with students.

[Robert G. Stark]

First, a true ultrilight as defined in FAR 103 cannot be licensed as a Sport Catagory aircraft. You would need Amateur Built certification. The amateur built certification inclused the limitations for the aircraft. The limitation for the small simple aircraft only require a "Pilot's License" catagory and class is not specified. A private pilot airplane can fly an Amateur Built Gyro as long as there are no passangers. You may receive training in your own Amateur Built (needs to be a two seater) and the time does count. Also look into the Sport Pilot rules concerning using the time you have in the ultralight towards your license. You may get a pleasant surprise. If you have furthur questions, contact me.
Bob Stark