Rotorcraft misunderstanding=low numbers

StanFoster

Active Member
Joined
Nov 16, 2003
Messages
17,139
Location
Paxton, Il
Aircraft
Helicycle N360SF
Total Flight Time
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One of my main observations while flying rotorcraft is how most of the fixed wing pilots I have come across lack the understanding of how rotorcraft fly. I feel this misunderstanding leads to fear of such, and the tendency to stay away from out type of flying. This keeps our numbers down at barely above attrition rate....and thus our sport remains stagnant.

This misunderstanding leads to passed on phrases..."their dangerous" , "that Jesus bolt", "not for me", and many others that dont come to mind right now.

When I was flying my gyros...I was constantly commented to from fixed wingers about "Isnt it too windy to be flying?" "Isnt it too rough today?" and again many more such questions.

I was on a constant demonstration campaign for my pleasure and to demonstrate what these machines can do.

I have found that even giving rides, demonstrating how nice they fly on very windy days...how little thermals effect them, vertical descents...they arent going to go out of control...etc. etc.etc. ..............there still is a high threshold of misunderstanding that will keep almost all fixed wingers on their side of the aviation fence...fixed wing flying.

I talk them about aerodynamics of the rotor as they just arent comfortable with something they dont understand. So....this wall of misunderstanding has a threshold that we rotorwingers need to figure out how to lower..by getting the otherside more educated.

I cant think of a better way to educate than to demonstrate personally flying in conditions that would ground the fixed wingers.

I never will forget at a big EAA fly-in 2 years ago....it was so freakin windy that not one fixed winger flew in to the cookout that always had the runway loaded with aircraft. I called Mark Knight who had to fly 25 miles as I did to attend the fly-in. We flew in discovering that we were the only two there...and we entertained the grounded pilots. After we ate..I commented that I needed to fly home to get some fuel so I could fly back....kind of a wise crack excuse to go fly when noone else could. I flew home...came back later and we continued demonstating taking off....rising vertically in the high winds.....flying backwards and landing on our take off point. Even these demonstrations didnt seem to enfluence comment except we were crazy to fly in such winds.

So....I have tried and I am afraid I havent influenced very many fixed wing pilots over to our side. The only person I know of that I influenced is Clayton Smith who posts here on the forum. He had seen my gyro flying pics on a building forum...that I posted in their "off topic" section...like I post my stairways in our "off topic section. Anyway...I was pleased to have caused Clay to come clear to Bensen Days 2007 to see me and what this was all about. Clay is an active gyro enthusiast now and at least I achieved one victory over misunderstanding.

Its a very high threshold of misunderstanding to get someone to get over...but when they do and they look back....that wall suddenly is real low.


Stan
 
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Shucks Stan, if ya wanna prove to someone that gyros are safe and dependable just show em pics of the crap I've flown over the years. That should do it !!
 
Noting could be more accurate.
The only way I convinced my brother a commercial, multi-engine, ... pilot with over 6000 hours and an IA since 1975 was to trick him into investigating the Carter jump gyro and asking him to explain to me how they worked. He called back with "wow really looks cool and explained what I already had read and then the dreaded words but anything with only a "Jesus bolt" holding it together scares me as it's really a formation of nuts and bolts flying in formation trying to throw its self apart with centrifugal force.

Have you actually seen or heard of a rotor's hub coming off?
Pause... No, pause.... but it look scary.
Well how do rotor fly? Why are they unsafe. I mean is their actually more loading on rotors than on the ultralight we are flying where we have to land when turbulence suddenly comes up?
Brother "I don't know!"
Well shouldn't you know that, at least to tell your brother, you're the expert in our the family?
Much more when on but this is what got him to research it.

Funny thing happen on the way to proving how unsafe these things are.
He discovered:
How they really worked, that the 'G' force would spill off the rotors as they are so thin, that the industry seems to have discovered and solved the instability problem using HS and all about them.
Then he said "I think the safety problem now isn't the aircraft it's because they use an Experimental exemption with the FAA to build them. John, think of what it would be like if you couldn't buy a factory built Cessna, but every pilot has to build 51% of there own and then could teach themselves to fly. What would our safety record be like.

Then he said I think they actually might be safer to fly than the ultralight in wind and turbulence. I think we ought to check them out as long as we build it ourselves, at least lets get rated. I think they might be safe now.

After over 35 years of trying to get him to even consider rotor craft.
Now that all of our friends IA (my brother) can explain how they fly we have 4 others already joining the adventure.

That's why when someone comes up to you when you're flying and says looks too cool, always try and say "and much safer to fly than an ultralight especially in wind or turbulence".
And then explain with the PRA most excellent link "Why Rotors instead of wings!"
http://www.pra.org/index.php?view=a...d=117:why-rotors&option=com_content&Itemid=55

This as been the tool we use to start there education, and it's working so well we are not telling anyone else as hard to train six of us at the same time now.
So we are keeping it a secret until we are trained!

Thanks for pointing out our main problem persuading pilots.
John
 
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Enjoyed the story, interesting to see how the other side sees each other.

Other than blowing the dust into our freshly swept hanger floor never had a problem with a helicopters or their pilots in over 35 years. Never said anything about the dirt either. Had a lot of problems with FW pilots acting the way you described. Might just be there are more FW pilots and so a greater percentage of spoiled rich jerks in general.

"You would be amazed at the terror that I have seen when fixed wing pulls on to a taxiway and sees a helicopter! They do not understand that we can just side step and let them pass. It is as if they almost think we are just barely in control and only seconds away from crashing at any minute."

We all know how they fly and that you can side step us, that's not the terror!!!

Here's what we are really thinking.

It's 'Dang' I can't back up and an get away from this guy!

I hope this guys not a new solo pilot and can fly.
I hope this guys sees me.
I hope this guy doesn't have a heart attack 3 feet off the ground I've seen the pieces fly.
I hope his engine doesn't quit right now and he kills both of us.
Wonder who does his maintenance.

It's not that often we meet even on a taxi-way so only occurs rarely but you're right their are so many more things that can kill both pilots 3' off the ground that you never have to ever even consider when taxiing behind another FW aircraft the fear that Murphy will show up is scary as we are not in control of our own destiny, you are.
All we can do is hope that you have the skill and maintenance handled and Murphy won't show up right now!

We really just don't trust your piloting skills, as we don't trust FW pilots skills we don't know either.

Hope this helps explain some of the differences in thinking,
Most pilots I know love helio, and if I know the pilot there is never any fear when we meet on the taxiway.

Sound like lack of communication to me if they knew you they would trust you and the terror will go away.
John
 
The best thing that could happen towards educating an uninformed public about gyroplanes is through the use of video, hands down.

We have a number of talented videographers in our ranks...Tim Chick, Dan Donley, Shawn Adams, and others. I also used to own a video production company, and really enjoy doing video production. (Birdy has even recently put up stuff on YouTube. If you want to get people excited about gyro flight, let them watch Birdy fly!)

I think there is enough high quality in-flight footage already in existence that with a few interviews from knowledgeable people sprinkled in and some structure added, a great gyro flight video could be created to dispel many of the myths of gyros.

This video can then, again, be put on YouTube, MetaCafe, etc., then embedded on aviation blogs, PRA website, possibly even distributed on DVD at fly-ins for a low fee.

Possibly you could get some small subsidy from Butterfly, Dominator, Xenon, etc. for inclusion in the video.

Just my opinion...I've been thinking about this for a while now.

I think Shawn Adams actually had started what was looking like an absolutely exceptional documentary on gyros...not sure whatever happened to that one.

-John
 
Stan,

Anytime a fixed-wing, or helo pilot, comes up to me and starts saying how dangerous gyros are, I just say "Yep, they're incredibly dangerous. And the only reason I'm still alive is because of my superior piloting skills". This usually gets me a snort and sideways look.

And then I'll say "Or...maybe I'm just a regular pilot and these things aren't as mysterious or dangerous as everyone thinks". That usually breaks the ice enough that they start asking reasonable questions and stop repeating something they heard from their next door neighbor's uncle who heard it from a man at a gas station, etc., etc.

Seems to work.
Most of the time. :)
 
The best thing that could happen towards educating an uninformed public about gyroplanes is through the use of video, hands down.

We have a number of talented videographers in our ranks...Tim Chick, Dan Donley, Shawn Adams, and others. I also used to own a video production company, and really enjoy doing video production. (Birdy has even recently put up stuff on YouTube. If you want to get people excited about gyro flight, let them watch Birdy fly!)

I think there is enough high quality in-flight footage already in existence that with a few interviews from knowledgeable people sprinkled in and some structure added, a great gyro flight video could be created to dispel many of the myths of gyros.

This video can then, again, be put on YouTube, MetaCafe, etc., then embedded on aviation blogs, PRA website, possibly even distributed on DVD at fly-ins for a low fee.

Possibly you could get some small subsidy from Butterfly, Dominator, Xenon, etc. for inclusion in the video.

Just my opinion...I've been thinking about this for a while now.

I think Shawn Adams actually had started what was looking like an absolutely exceptional documentary on gyros...not sure whatever happened to that one.

-John

I think this is brilliant!
Going to add the whole thing to the marketing plan.

John
 
Stan,

Anytime a fixed-wing, or helo pilot, comes up to me and starts saying how dangerous gyros are, I just say "Yep, they're incredibly dangerous. And the only reason I'm still alive is because of my superior piloting skills". This usually gets me a snort and sideways look.

Most of the time. :)
"my superior piloting skills"
And so funny too!!!
I love that, may I steal it!
John
 
That usually breaks the ice enough that they start asking reasonable questions and stop repeating something they heard from their next door neighbor's uncle who heard it from a man at a gas station, etc., etc...

Mike, unfortunately, he could also be repeating something he concluded from reading NTSB reports.

If we could somehow snap our fingers and have every fixed-wing pilot, airport manager and insurance underwriter suddenly become knowledgeable on how rotors work, they'd only move on to the next logical question...

"Why, then, is your accident rate so much higher than fixed-wing?"

When we can answer that question confidently, we'll be on our way.
 
@Paul
My brother's theory works for me.
"I think the safety problem now isn't the aircraft it's because they use an Experimental exemption with the FAA to build them. John, think of what it would be like if you couldn't buy a factory built Cessna, but every pilot has to build 51% of there own and then could teach themselves to fly. What would our safety record be like."
Also he mentioned no AD notice compliance and you can legally add and remove any components you want without a 337 and engineering.

He is usually right but it's not based on rotorcraft experience.
John
 
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those fixed wing pilots......

those fixed wing pilots......

I agree with you and wish to add a little. As a commercial helicopter pilot I've experienced extreme resistance to my operations almost everywhere I have, or proposed fly and conduct business. From knocking on doors and addressing neighbors' concerns to planning board meetings, meeting resistance is par for the course. As for fixed wing pilots I see a distinct difference in attitude. Their cavalier, cowboy like attitude has no place in any aviation community. I'm just a lowly, low time pilot, but I take every flight, even just around the pattern, very seriously. I'm always waiting for the worst to happen and to be ready if it does. I've had lots of instruction and continue to get recurrent instruction, employing the FAA's "Wings" program. Rotary wing aircraft does employ more understanding of aerodynamics and sometimes finding instruction is challenging. I realize that fixed wing training at times conflicts with rotary wing training, but I suppose my point is that all aircraft and all types of flying should be taken seriously. All aircraft are potentially dangerous if not flown properly, and they all can fall out of the sky uncontrollably. Ignorance breeds fear and contempt and I deffinately have met my share of it. I combat it with trying to educate those who have misunderstandings, attend flyins, even performed in an airshow once. All actions help to educate the public, and other pilots. There are many answers and usually one solution, knowledge. John Christopher
 
I have a friend whose brother in law is an Astronaut. I met him once and we discussed flying - I brough out some pictures of my gyro and --his response was "man gotta be crazy to fly one of those things" --this is from a guy who climbs aboard the space shuttle and a rocket with a gazillion pounds of thrust -- I asked him who was crazier me or him --all he did was chuckle and say " I see your point"
 
I agree with you and wish to add a little. As a commercial helicopter pilot I've experienced extreme resistance to my operations almost everywhere I have, or proposed fly and conduct business. From knocking on doors and addressing neighbors' concerns to planning board meetings, meeting resistance is par for the course. As for fixed wing pilots I see a distinct difference in attitude. Their cavalier, cowboy like attitude has no place in any aviation community. I'm just a lowly, low time pilot, but I take every flight, even just around the pattern, very seriously. I'm always waiting for the worst to happen and to be ready if it does. I've had lots of instruction and continue to get recurrent instruction, employing the FAA's "Wings" program. Rotary wing aircraft does employ more understanding of aerodynamics and sometimes finding instruction is challenging. I realize that fixed wing training at times conflicts with rotary wing training, but I suppose my point is that all aircraft and all types of flying should be taken seriously. All aircraft are potentially dangerous if not flown properly, and they all can fall out of the sky uncontrollably. Ignorance breeds fear and contempt and I deffinately have met my share of it. I combat it with trying to educate those who have misunderstandings, attend flyins, even performed in an airshow once. All actions help to educate the public, and other pilots. There are many answers and usually one solution, knowledge. John Christopher
Good one, your part of solution then!!!
Thanks,
John
 
I have a friend whose brother in law is an Astronaut. I met him once and we discussed flying - I brough out some pictures of my gyro and --his response was "man gotta be crazy to fly one of those things" --this is from a guy who climbs aboard the space shuttle and a rocket with a gazillion pounds of thrust -- I asked him who was crazier me or him --all he did was chuckle and say " I see your point"
I love this one!
It really shows we have a lot of education to do!
John
 
FW planes have numerous Jesus bolts. If one of the wing strut bolts on your Cessna shears, you're going to have a very rapid unscheduled return to Earth. Do they in fact shear off regularly? Of course not.

I start my explanation of a rotorcraft (photo) by showing and telling them that a rotor blade is simply an ordinary wing -- curvy top, flattish bottom. It has angle of attack, lift, drag, all the usual wingy stuff.

In the case of a gyro, the rotor blades are effectively two small sailplanes tied wingtip to wingtip. In a helo, they are powered airplanes harnessed to the top of your fuselage.

We move these wings fast so we don't have to worry about stalling. As a result we have a high wing loading, similar to a high-performance FW plane. That makes turbulence and wind less daunting.

Helo pilots could do their activity a favor by demonstrating power-off autos more often. After 39 years in the PRA, I have yet to see one.
 

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Some helicopters, like the R22 with it's low inertia rotor, aren't very forgiving when doing autorotations to the ground - a minor mistake on the pilot's part can end up pretty ugly. Pilot would normally walk away from that sort of thing but it can be expensive! Doing them to a power recovery removes a bunch of that risk, but not all. Lots of perfectly good ships get crashed every year doing autorotation training with CFI's on board!

If it's a rental, auto's are almost certainly prohibited without a CFI onboard no matter what type.

When I was current I'd have had no qualms about demoing auto's to the ground in a Bell 47 - if an experimental ship with no hull insurance, maybe not.
 
Negative thoughts towards us?

Negative thoughts towards us?

This is some interesting food for thought. I contacted a respected and knowledgeable experimental helicopter pilot on another site this morning and asked if he ever visited our Rotary Wing Forum, and here's the response I received back from him (I have withheld his name so he won't be inundated with hate mail):

------------------------------------------------

> Hey, rotary wing pilot, do you ever visit
> http://www.rotaryforum.com/? Lots of gyroplane
> and helicopter chat going on all the time over there.
> Right now Stan Foster is chronicling his R-22 lessons
> as he takes them.
> Cheers,
> Ed Newbold
> Columbus, OH

Ed: I have looked into the rotaryforum every now and then and it is 98% gyrocopters. While we have some anti-social behavior from the "Stuck Wing" crowd, I've also seen some similar behavior from the gyro pilots toward the helicopters.

To wit: Bensen Days this year negative comments were heard from the gyro people and again at Sun'n Fun. While the new PRA pres wants to get the helos back in the group at Mentone and other events, a number of the gyro folks seem to wish the helos would go away.

That said, it seems like, as in the traffic pattern, the helicopters need to do "Right Hand" in the "Left Hand" pattern of the "Stuck Wing" and Gyros. Inspite of helos and gyros both being rotary wing, there is a lot more in common between the "Stuck Wings" and the gyros than between gyros and helos.

Traffic patterns and runway needs are the main operational difference. Sun'n Fun operations illuminated a need to separate the gyro operations from the helicopters. Their needs are just different. While the Event operators want everyone to come, there needs to be a little thought about the peaceful co-existence of the different A/C types. This may also be true in forums and NGs. It would make sense to provide some separation for the different types of A/C discussions. I know I'm not too interested in propeller discussions or pre-rotators, brakes and centerline thrust.

There are an increasing number of helicopter fly-ins where the helicopters are made to feel welcome. Vertical Challenge, Central Sierra, Utah Helicopter Meet, Homer's, Spurlings, St. Denis in Florida, and a Mosquito based show also in Florida, and Rotorfest in PA as well as some others that I can't remember right now.

I've been hoping to find a news group or forum that focused on experimental helicopters. This RAR has in the past been loaded more with the commercial helo operators. I've tried to get some stuff going but I haven't hit the right note yet.
 
FW planes have numerous Jesus bolts. If one of the wing strut bolts on your Cessna shears, you're going to have a very rapid unscheduled return to Earth. Do they in fact shear off regularly? Of course not.

I start my explanation of a rotorcraft (photo) by showing and telling them that a rotor blade is simply an ordinary wing -- curvy top, flattish bottom. It has angle of attack, lift, drag, all the usual wingy stuff.

In the case of a gyro, the rotor blades are effectively two small sailplanes tied wingtip to wingtip. In a helo, they are powered airplanes harnessed to the top of your fuselage.

We move these wings fast so we don't have to worry about stalling. As a result we have a high wing loading, similar to a high-performance FW plane. That makes turbulence and wind less daunting.

Helo pilots could do their activity a favor by demonstrating power-off autos more often. After 39 years in the PRA, I have yet to see one.
I'm adding this to my bag of tools!
Thanks a lot,
John
 
@enewbold
Bummer, seems we to work on both side of the fence.
We can fix the PR problem, never been to our fly ins can we fix the traffic pattern, the helicopters need to do "Right Hand" in the "Left Hand" pattern?
John
 
Brett, I hear ya on the diceyness of an R-22 auto to ground. But, of course, the FW pilots hear ya, too. This issue amounts to a potential public-relations problem for helos.

OTOH, most non-helo drivers (FW pilots and non-pilots alike) believe that the rotor instantly stops if the engine quits (on a gyro or a helo). It's fine to tell them it doesn't, that it has a coaster brake, but it would nice to have a simple but convincing demonstration.

I know that people are absolutely blown away when you switch off the engine in a gyro and deadstick it in. You can TELL them all you want, but they don't really absorb it until they see it.
 
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