Why teach Strip hops?

ventana7

Gold Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2003
Messages
1,599
Location
Salida, Colorado
Aircraft
Xenon Gyroplane, Cessna 182
Total Flight Time
1,000+
A question for you instructors out there.

I have seen several new gyro pilots refer to their early lessons and doing strip hops. I think Ron Menzies downloadable sylabus also has strip hops among the very first training tasks. Why?

Is this a holdover from Bensons early teach yourself to fly book? It certainly is not done in fixed wing instruction and it seems odd to saddle new students with the most difficult and dangerous flight tasks before they even have familiarity with manuvering the machine.

Rob
 
G'day Rob, congratulations......

G'day Rob, congratulations......

..on obtaining your great gyro. Good decision.

I will simply answer by saying how accomplish the task.

If I train a student in the 2 seat that they will solo in, I just ballast it up with a little over 1/2 my weight, fly a quick circuit to check thr trim and then tell the student, "go fly me a circuit, and if you feel comfortable fly 2."

When transitioning from my stable trainer to the students stable single seater conducting strip runs is the only way the transition can be done safely. We conduct strip runs in the trainer so that the student is comfortable with what I expect them to do.

Next is to have the student taxy with the rotor blades turning and me in a vehicle along side and to the rear out of sight with radio contact. I do not require that the student can talk to me.

We gradually build up over several sessions, sometimes over several days, to balancing on the mains and then a solo hop. I have the student conduct several hours of the Bensen style strip runs untill they can land from 200' engine idling 3 times in a row without me getting excited. :eek:

Then it is time for their first solo circuit in their own machine, and that is a thrill for both the student and myself. :D

I prefere to solo students in the same dual machine that they have trained in. It is much more difficult to transition them to a single place. Both systems work. It is of neccessity that I teach both ways.

I hope this is the sort of feed back you wanted Rob.

Aussie Paul. :)

Remember these pics Rob?
 

Attachments

  • Rob flying  wps.jpg
    Rob flying wps.jpg
    30.2 KB · Views: 0
  • Rob on ground with G-400 wps.jpg
    Rob on ground with G-400 wps.jpg
    58.2 KB · Views: 0
Good question

Good question

It seems the most logical next step but I have some concerns with crow hops unless you have optimal runway, wind and airport conditions. Most 2 pl gyros are heavy, they are under powered, which is not always a bad thing. However I feel that as a new student you are trying to cram to many tasks into the into the students bag of skills.


Not giving each task here, I find it unnerving to have to take off with the quickest manner, then almost fly behind the power curve, build just enough airspeed, then drop the power, set up for a landing and drop in before the end of the runway says game over.

If you can picture the riding a bicycle scenairo. You have a little kid just learning... Training wheels are on the highest setting. Can that kid pedal the bicycle slow and look stable or is the bicycle shaky ?. Most kids can ride better faster than they can slow. Of course I am talking about 2 different vehicles but the mind/machine connection is the same, I feel.



However as a new student one has a real possibility to start to pio or yo yo the machine and chase the stick. I believe the old timer logic is that if you are not going that fast and are close to the ground you have a better chance of getting back up if things go wrong.

I much prefer to take off, circle, set up for landing at some kind of altitude, bring it in. Get that sensation of speed and altitude over with and then go learn. But thats just me.

To quote Brent Brown, He confers, saying that he feels that crow hops are "the most" dangerous maneuver you can do in a gyro. For now I tend to agree.

To quote Jim Vaneck he also confers about taking a new student up getting them over the speed, altitude exposure and then proceeding.

Even if you are not really pilot in command, it is not time wasted. You are getting aclimated to flight.

Jonathan
 
IMHO, training in a powered 2-place should begin with straight-and-level flight at altitude, proceed to maneuvers at altitude and from there to patterns, wave-offs and touch-and-goes. Crow hops should not be a teaching device, and certainly not at the beginning of the training course. A crow hop is something of a precision maneuver, involving accurate management of all flight variables right near the (hard) ground. It's overwhelming and unnecessary to start with crow hops in a 2-seat craft.

Altitude flying is very simple (in a stable trainer, of course). Learning should naturally start with simple tasks and proceed, one task at a time, to the more complex tasks.

Incidentally, takeoffs are the last basic task I teach.

People should do the transition to their own 1-place machines by crow-hopping, however. To avoid surprises, the machine should be checked out and (if possible) flown by an experienced gyronaut before the newbie tries it.
 
When I transitioned into my single place Air Command, I had no one to help me test fly my gyro, or help me from the ground. The first takeoff - call it a craw hop or whatever - was a real leap of faith. As soon as you leave the runway, even if only to 50 ft, you are flying the machine and every mishap could be your last.

It was a leap of faith because this was the first flight for this home built machine, and the first flight for me as a newbe test pilot in-type, or in any single place gyroplane for that matter! The faith was in me as a builder and a pilot. I am still getting goosebumps whenever I think about that first flight.

In my first takeoff, I climbed to about 50 ft and flew the length of the runway. The objective was to stay over the centerline, manage altitude with power while flying at about 50 MPH, and getting it back down to earth in one piece. I repeated that flight about 4 times and went home for the day.

The next time I, again, only flew the length of the runway but this time I climbed a little higher and did some S turns. Did that 4-5 times and went home.

Next time I climbed to 500 ft and when I saw everything was ok, I turned to crosswind and flew the pattern. My first few approached to landings were powered, and then I started making them steeper and steeper until there was no power at all.

I practiced engine out landings, straight in and with 180 turns, to perfection before I felt comfortable enough to stray off the airport.

Rob has asked why do gyros do crow hops, or flying over the runway, and FW don’t. I think there are a few reasons:

1. Gyros fly slowly and we CAN fly over the runway for a while without leaving it - this is our security blanket.

2. Many times, out first flight it also the gyro's first test flight. Staying slow and low is safer in case there is a gross problem with the aircraft (less speed and distance to fall...)

3. Gyros don't need much runway to land. When you have a problem over the runway, chop power, land somehow, and you are done. Most FW aircraft would overrun the end of the runway if they tried landing from mid-field at 500 ft.

Incidentally, my first mountain jumping in a hang glider was also a kind of a crow hop. I was told by my instructor to jump (i.e. take off), fly straight, and land in the field without even doing S turns. This was a good advice because I was so overwhelmed by the altitude and the relatively no movement of the ground below, that all I could do was keep it level. My first 360-degree turn in altitude was a real challenge.

Udi
 
Udi, even that was pretty aggressive. I suggest that, transitioning to a single-place, people first get the ground handling down cold by driving around without blades. In many gyros, the rudder starts to become effective at a fast taxi, and this is a low-risk way to get totally familiar with the pedals and steering.

Next, one can mount the rotor and get it spinning. With no more than a 10 mph headwind and NO cross component, feel the machine out by lifting the nosewheel and lowering it a few times with each pass down the runway, at below flight power. Gradually increase power on succeeding runs until you're just floating off and setting it right back down again. Be alert for unusual vibes or control pressures (how's the trim spring?). Pay close attention to the amount of rudder pedal pressure you need to fly straight and coordinated (it can be a huge amount at low airspeeds). Notice any side-stick pressures you need to prevent torque roll as you leave the ground.

If these hops go well, you can proceed to the kind of flights Udi described. If this is your first time in a 1-place, I wouldn't proceed from crow hops to patterns in a single day. Spread the learning out over a couple sessions on succeeding days.

Incidentally, stop frequently (maybe every half hour) to rest AND to inspect the machine. Look carefully for stuff coming loose, chafing, leaking fluids and so on. That's the "test flight" part of the experience!
 
Crow Hop Tips

Crow Hop Tips

Craig Wall from the old forum listed some good info on doing crow hops. I took all his info vebatim from the conference and composed it into a page on my website. Here's the link..

Crowhopping Tips
 
Doug, you have been flying gyros so long that I know you must have self-trained. And I suspect like Rob mentioned in the opening post in this thread that you did crow hops per Bensen. I know in talking to everyone that self trained that this is what they did. The difference I see between today and the old days is that for whatever reason people have lost their patience. Consequently they do not make good self-trainers.

Dave Prater related to me that when he self-trained; he followed the Bensen method and never even flew the pattern for the first year! We all know that Dave is an accomplished gyro pilot and now is a retired corporate pilot.

What I'm getting too is that I don't see that kind of patience today. And I think it has led to a lot of the problems we blame on machine and training. I believe that your method of training ground handling and takeoffs last in the sequence of skill building is the proper way of doing it these days. And I also agree that Udi's transition was extremely aggressive. Transitioning from an instructors two place to the students machine is one of the two areas of training that have been pretty much accepted as training weak points. The other is in the area of gyro theory.

Crow hops makes sense, as part of the transition, if the owner/pilot is the test pilot on his/her machine. It provides an opportunity to sort out handling before venturing higher or over unfriendly territory. But if at all possible I believe it is in the best interest of the pilot/owner if the machine is checked out by the instructor or a very experienced pilot. They can identify rigging problems/solutions and pass on any handling/performance idiosyncrasies.

I know that there are, or have been, instructors such as Marion Springer, who wouldn’t start training until the students machine has been brought to them. Marion actually kept the students machine to make sure the student didn’t try to fly until the transition training was complete.
 
Doug - I haven’t mentioned all the taxi work I have done prior to the first takeoff I described above.

I haven’t done any taxiing without the blades mounted on, but I kept the rotor brake on for the first 30 minutes of taxiing. Then, I practiced taxiing with the blades turning, and I gradually proceeded to autorotation. After an hour or two of that, I started balancing on the mains. I practiced balancing on the mains for about 4 hours until I felt the machine "is an extension of my body". I didn't have to think about the controls anymore.

This is when my progression departed Craig Wall’s plan described on Toby's web site. I could not gradually add power until the gyro "skimmed" the runway. My Rotax 532 would get "on the pipe" at about 4500 RPM and jump to 6000 RPM without transition. At 4300-4400 RPM, the gyro would not yet get airborne. At 6000 RPM it would, naturally, take off.

So after I have mastered balancing on the mains at pre-takeoff power, I had no choice but to go to a full-blown takeoff. I think it would have been a waste of time and maybe even dangerous to try and do short crow hops with a peaky power band.

Udi
 
Dean, perhaps people expect instant gratification more than before.

Yeah, I did self-train. I spent a year gyro-gliding (about 50 flight hours) and a second year crow-hopping and flying over the runway (another 50). However, many people back in that (supposedly) more patient era did NOT take the time. They just jumped in and blasted off. Lots of them smoked in.

From the point of view of human nature, it's a lot to ask someone to wade through two YEARS of baby steps before flying one single pattern. When you're self-teaching in machines with unreliable engines and marginal stability, that's simply what it takes. But it's a bit unreasonable for an activity that's supposed to be a leisure-time pursuit. It SHOULDN'T be that hard to learn.

I think a dual-training syllabus that uses some of today's clever techniques for rapid learning of sports skills, together with a safe aircraft, can shorten the learning process dramatically. It still takes patience, and it will always require maturity and judgment to fly responsibly. 100 years after the Wright Brothers, though, we shouldn't need to go through the obsessive, painfully tentative steps that the first pilots took.

P.S.: Two of the reasons that I took so long to fly the pattern were (1) I didn't have the money for an engine right away and (2) the 1500 and 1600 VW's I had at first wouldn't climb far out of ground effect!
 
Thanks everybody for your input. Paul and Doug you addressed different issues and both of your posts made great sense-thanks for the detail.

I was sort of concerned when I read one student describing his first few hours of dual and mentioning strip hops and also Jerseywing in the thread on "First Lesson" mentioned he was in his 6th hour of dual and really enjoyed flying behind the power curve-- yikes.
Also Ron Menzies whom I don't know but have only heard wonderful things about has strip hops in his first dual lessons.
Those are the parts that made no sense to me.
Rob
 
Crow Hops and training

Crow Hops and training

At some time soon I will be trying to seek out additional training in gyros. However, when it comes time, I will still be on my own since the machine is not a model that is available for training.

My issue I stuggle with is that being a tail dragger might be worse for me to do crow hops. In a normal landing the ground roll should be basically nothing. Running down the runway and then possibly having a situation of landing sideways or with runway drift after just trying to put it down is a lot of workload as I percieve it. Ideally it would be nice to have someone else fly it if they wanted to and then could tell me if something was pulling to the side or whatever. Even transitioning from a trainer to this will be different since it would be the first time I flew the machine. Knowing that everything is good and trimmed out the way it should be would give me the confidence to know that how it is flying is totally how I am flying it.

I like the idea of taking off and trying crowhops but if something isn't what I like to just fly the pattern. Getting a bit of time up there and the feel of the stick I would think would really help me get to know the ship a bit better. Even if I did some setup/goarounds, I could make sure everything was ok.

Interesting thread. I either do what I said above or wait another year or who knows a little more... Finish our 2 place machines and then start training. With the single place there though and me not flying I am trying to think about my next part of the plans.... jtm
 
I believe that if a student isn't up to crow hops then they havent received enough training to do a high solo circuit.
Crow hops should be a part of the students confidence building procedure.
If a solo student did "overload", his chances of living would be far better from 10 ft than from 1000 ft. Take off and landing accidents are vary rarely fatal (in fact I do not know that I recall any).
 
No not flying behind the curve, learning how to deal with it. I may have used the wrong words. Lift the nose till it slows and starts to descend. I find it fascinating. I've worked with much more dangerous stuff and am confident in the attitude of "qualified operators following approved procedures" Only through proper training and practice can you deal with any situation that may come your way. Whether it be 1000' down or 1000' up you do it right or you don't come home.
 
Last edited:
"Only through proper training and practice can you deal with any situation that may come your way."

Not exactly true, Michael. You can't deal with a power pushover in a high-thrustline gyro without at least a proper stabilizing device on the frame.
 
Tim -That is true in one respect. Doing what you propose means they haven't done the critical landing. But the danger is there while on the ground with runway drift and whatever else. I already have automatic teeter limiters, a lockable forward stick and flying experience of 3 airplanes, 2 autogyros. I still need more time training. I know I will be practice taxing more. I know what a good approach is, traffic control/avoidance and are used to doing it. I just don't know how much throttle, how much stick and rudder etc...

I think it makes sense to get used to the input of the controls, the response time, how the machine generally flies fast, slow and whatnot....All needing to be done with altitude. Getting use to rpms and the general feel makes that approach much more automatic. Doing so on the ground with a taildragger no less.... on a machine that does not have tandem instruction available is probably better off in the air with a buffer zone. If it does get test flown first there is no doubt it will fly, just provide additional time for the solo pilot to learn what it does without the low altitude hazzards.

It does mean that instead of breaking down all the other portions into little steps that would all come together for the landing by flying a circuit...... you would the additional features such as pilot overload, landing hazzards without even getting to fly it in the easier mode and the risk of being under the power curve . Too many things going on at once. But the main thing I feel worried is about the possibility of ground loop. Normal flying with this aircraft you would only be powering up and getting off the runway. Landing would just be a controlled decent with very little ground roll. Trying to run down the runway and then Not move down the runway because you don't want to get too high makes it seem like you are better off on the ground - avoid flying out of a problem.... I see what you mean and maybe something in between would be good....Basically, If I tried crowhops but somehow ended up out of runway and off centerline... I wouldn't want to feel bad about just taking her up, around and settling back to the beggining of the runway.... I still have the time to think and schedule more time. And I appreciate the input. I just don't see overloading for me happening at any height that allows me time to feel the machine and have a few minutes to practice decent and knowing I can drop the nose instead of being by the ground and can't drop it.... I think just a few minutes to adapt and I am ok.

I have pretty much gotten used to flying from either seat in all the planes and sometimes when I was just sitting there my flying partner would say "got it ?" and "you want to land?". I would have to get used to going into pilot mode from that of a passenger... from checking the trim of the plane, what it wanted to do, the rudder input and switch settings in order to do it correctly. Assuming that it has flown before and I am finally getting in it, I would rather be handed a plane that is already flying and have a few minutes with her instead of switching on and off on and off during a critical flight manuver such as landing. Kinda like getting a chance to shoot some test arrows off into flight before aiming for the bullseye. But thats just where I am at. Who knows Tim, as I start taxing maybe I do the fast and next thing I know... same thing.... Plenty of time to think about it. I just did hang test and am mounting the 3 push pull tubes. Have an issue with the exaust routing that I am going to pipe out instead of down. Got all the real hardware to replace for the torque tube. Hope I measured right... Thanks jtm

Also, if you wanted to see how it behaves behind the power curve I would suggest doing that at a safe altitude. Learning that close to the ground doesn't give you much room on one side of the envelope.
jtm
 
Last edited:
Oh yea, forgot,

The first time I went flying they put me in a plane, made me taxi, backtaxi and then takeoff. I had the plane all the way down to 20 feet of the runway before the instructor had the plane. When I think back.... I realize that they were doing the opposite. They are flying and if I had gotten into trouble such as runway drift or whatever... It was easy to add throttle and get out. The option was there to get up to speed guicker because we were flying and then trying to land. This gave us the chance to get out if things weren't right instead of being under the power curve/stall all the time. It also gave me the benefit to see how she flys and try different power settings, get used to all the noise and stress before coming down. I think it made it easier for me. Imagine if we did crow hops in a plane until we flew it. Runway drift, less of an option generally for go arounds and definately high pilot workload. Yea, I think I like it the other way. Seems a more natural transition for me, maybe not for someone who isn't used to being up there and coming down. jtm
 
Doug Riley said:
Udi, even that was pretty aggressive. I suggest that, transitioning to a single-place, people first get the ground handling down cold by driving around without blades. In many gyros, the rudder starts to become effective at a fast taxi, and this is a low-risk way to get totally familiar with the pedals and steering.

Next, one can mount the rotor and get it spinning. With no more than a 10 mph headwind and NO cross component, feel the machine out by lifting the nosewheel and lowering it a few times with each pass down the runway, at below flight power. Gradually increase power on succeeding runs until you're just floating off and setting it right back down again. Be alert for unusual vibes or control pressures (how's the trim spring?). Pay close attention to the amount of rudder pedal pressure you need to fly straight and coordinated (it can be a huge amount at low airspeeds). Notice any side-stick pressures you need to prevent torque roll as you leave the ground.

If these hops go well, you can proceed to the kind of flights Udi described. If this is your first time in a 1-place, I wouldn't proceed from crow hops to patterns in a single day. Spread the learning out over a couple sessions on succeeding days.

Incidentally, stop frequently (maybe every half hour) to rest AND to inspect the machine. Look carefully for stuff coming loose, chafing, leaking fluids and so on. That's the "test flight" part of the experience!

I have to disagree with the idea of taxiing with the blades off, that is how I wreaked a gyro ,I had a v.w. powered bensen and was doing like the book how to fly gyros said and was taxiing with the blades off, the throttle stuck on my second run and I could not reach the kill switch before I was doing 45 m.p.h.
in a matter of seconds I had run off the runway hit a 3 foot high dirt pile and cart wheeled ,I had been told by several that if I had the blades on I would not picked up speed as fast and that the blades also stablize you more.
I have not tryed to fly a gyro by my self since,messed up my back and did not help the gyro to much either. luckily I had a good helmet and face sheild.
witnesses said I had flipped 2 times before I hit the ground.
 
Last edited:
Animal. I agree about the speeds with the blades on mine because if the tail comes "UP" and I even touch the brakes.... what do you think will happen? I can pull back on a stick that does nothing. I think it is good to have the articulated head for control at fast upper taxi - almost flying speeds.

But if you are going to do it...the blades better be spinning. That is why I was writing as I did above. At that speed when you're giving it all you got to lift off or right on the edge of it to crowhop - I think things get squirelly until you just "push through" and fly.

In addition I like the weight of the blades helping to keep the tail down by its own weight leaning back on the tail. On a taildragger there is more than enough weight on the nose. Any weight moving back will help preven from the engine pulling the frame over if I was to hit a step up say from grass to the concrete or whatever. The tail bounces alot on the grass without the blades and affects steering I noticed. It is kind of nice to be able to start thinking about getting ready to put her out soon. I have a few more bills to take care of and then I am going to put away a little money to see if I can get some more flight time... jtm
 
Top