Glad Everything went well

and everyone had a safe event,, I sure Hope and Pray that Kerry gets better.

Now I have something to get off my chest so here goes....

Why should I or other instructors spend the time or money to go to Mentone when the rides that we as instructors CANNOTT legally give.

Our LODA will NOT allow this and the PRA should NOT allow anyone that is NOT an instructor or a rated pilot allow this at the Mentone event..

Ron is a capable pilot, However I have stated this before that it is NOT Legal in any reference for him to carry passengers..Whether he ask, or receives any monetary funds is not what I'm concerned about..

He is NOT Legal and the PRA has sign offs as well as the LEGAL Liability to STOP him from doing this at any PRA sanctioned event.

Thats is why INSTRUCTORS have gone thru the stringent FAA requirements and LODA to be and stay legal. Whom even signed Ron off and allowed him to do this is a Damned FOOL.

Greg Griminger,

You of all people should NOT ALLOW this to happen with all the work it took months for you getting the LODA approved. Seemingly you did all that work and didn't understand any of it..

I as a LEGAL FAA Rotorcraft Gyroplane and Helicopter Instructor cannott and WILL NOT be able to GIVE away Instructions.. "RIDES are PROHOBITED" as per the LODA.

Drivers License, Birth certificates, Passports.. was ANY of that presented ?

I and others have worked too hard to COMPLY with the Rules of The FAA/TSA. WHY should I maintain my aircraft/Physical/ CFI certificate in a safe condition, and the PRA does Not Honor it.

If this hurt your feelings, It's a Slap in the Face to me.

I Will NOT attend ANY Event that will allow these actions except by the qualified Pilots and they're aircraft.



Steve McGowan

Steve,
Are you saying that a legal pilot can not give anybody rides in their two place. If this is true then only instructors should have two place machines. Also if this is true then many are breaking the rules NOT JUST RON.

I flew passengers at Mentone last year in my SparrowHawk and it was legal for me doing so. I dont understand why anyone cant give rides?

Stan

Stan it was always understood that demo flights where to be conducted by the CFI's as the mean of income.

Jim

All_In said:

Retracted!

If it makes you feel any better Steve I'm a licensed pilot and PIC then and I gave Ron the ride, yeah that's it.

PS:
And we all had such a great time too, this really sucks!!!

Click to expand...

John,

If you read part 61 of the FARs you will find that you are not qualified to be PIC of a gyroplane.

Jim

I am personally tired of it, and should just ignore this thread, but.... that isn't my style.

Steve, I will say it hear and say it to you on the phone and will say it to your face, You have lost it!

Unless I am missing your point, what you said right here is absolutely false.

Ron is a capable pilot, However I have stated this before that it is NOT Legal in any reference for him to carry passengers..Whether he ask, or receives any monetary funds is not what I'm concerned about..

Click to expand...

I hold a Private pilot certificate, with single engine land rating. I also hold a valid third class medical. I am also current as far as BFR's go. This makes me perfectly legal to fly any airplane ( within limits of the private pilot rating ) and to carry passengers. It also makes me perfectly legal to fly experimental gyroplanes solo, so as long as the particular gyroplanes operating limitations do not call for a gyroplane rating to fly it ( most don't )

Now none of that makes me legal to carry passengers in my gyroplane, but.... I also hold a valid Sport Pilot rating that legally allows me to fly any gyroplane, single or two place, with a pusher prop and tandem seating and open or semi enclosed cockpits... pending the gyroplane meets the criteria of a lightsport aircraft ( 1320 max gross weight, fixed pitch prop, 2 seats, daylight operations only, etc... etc... )


Now you may think the sport pilot rating is a half assed rating. You might believe it isn't a real rating. You may even think it isn't fair a pilot can basically take half as much training to earn a sport pilot rating as a private rating. Hell I am not sure what you think.... But I can assure you, it is a real rating and it is a legal rating.

Now if your upset at me for offering a few people rides at Mentone, that is something you could have talked to me about in private. I am in no way wanting to come to Mentone or Bensen Days and so on and take money out of your pockets by "stealing" your customers.

I am not really interested if taking strangers up in my gyro in the first place, just my friends. And like Mike and Stan alluded to, what good is a two place gyro if you can't give your friends a ride?

And bottom line, it is not me, or some other person like Stan who brings there gyros to the fly-ins that hurts yours or the other instructors business. Bensen Days there was only two gyros there offering instruction / Intro rides, you and a another instructor that you and I both know wasn't even legal to be giving instruction ( where are your posts and threads complaining about having to compete with well known instructors that are charging for training and providing training without a rating? Why single me out and I am not instructing anyone? ) Anyway, just you two there offering any kind of flights to the public and your machine breaks down and in the end many people ended up leaving the fly-in without a ride that they would have liked to get.

Mentone wasn't much different, only instructors there really doing any business was Greg Gremminger and Chris Burgess and late in the week Richard Nadig. I had tons of people ( strangers, general public ) asking me for a ride and I told them to go see Chris or Richard, and both were booked and had no more opening on their schedules to be able to give these rides. Meanwhile, there was at least 5 other two places gyros there besides myself that were piloted by pilots not holding instructors ratings and I don't see Chris or Greg or any of the other instructors blaming the pilots of two place gyros for a lack of business or whatever. Bottom line is if your a CFI and you want to make some money you just need to be there and be ready to fly, those that were there to do that appeared to stay plenty busy the way I saw it.

I truely don't understand why you seem to have it out for me so bad.

Please ask Rusty Nance, Ernie Boyette, Greg Gremminger and all the other people that were at Mentone telling me I should get my instructors rating and start instructing, that they are all dam fools too, because I am confused now.

When I walked up Ron was just telling two people that he only flew friends and pointed them to instructors that would give them a ride, just for the record!!!

If it's a money thing then what are you thinking this is so really penny wise and pound foolish. Ron's not offering instruction only you could have gotten me as a customer/ student to proceed from here.
Ron's flight and even just my description of it to all pilots I meet for life will do more to promote you new business than anything I've read you have posted so far.
Do you want the sport to die?

JimLogan said:

Stan it was always understood that demo flights where to be conducted by the CFI's as the mean of income.

Jim

Click to expand...

Always understood? was this in the fine print on the waivers I signed at the pilots briefing at Mentone?

Seriously I understand your point and I agree with it. It is NOT fair to the instructors present, to offer free rides to the general public when obviously this would hurt the instructors who are charging whatever you guys charge these days for the same ride.

But turn the tables a bit and get my name out of this discussion for a minute and let's pretend that at Mentone Larry Boyer showed up and didn't bring his gyro. He asks Steve Osborn for a ride and Steve takes him up for a ride. Is this wrong of Steve or Larry? Should Steve or Larry be getting thrown under the bus on the forum here cause of that? I don't think so...

I am not sure what you think, or what steve thinks, but I didn't go to Mentone and set up a booth on the flightline to give away gyro rides. I simply took some friends for rides and I think that is fine and in no way harmful to any instructors income.

I have a real question: I'm a pilot can't I walk up right now and fly any gyro and my brother anywhere we want legally? Not safely, but legally!

All_In said:

I have a real question: I'm a pilot can't I walk up right now and fly any gyro and my brother anywhere we want legally? Not safely, but legally!

Click to expand...

Passengers? Not with out at least a sport pilot rating in gyroplanes.

The rule that allowed private pilots to take passingers in experimental aircraft has changed. You can only solo experimental aircraft for which you don't have the rating.

Steve,

I don't get what you are after. Ron has every right to take all the passengers up he wants to. He does not even need a current medical to meet his sport pilot gyroplane requirements.

The CFIs at Mentone seemed as busy as they wanted to be at Mentone and I sure did not see any signs posted on tents that said "gyro rides/lessons here". I spent lots of time around most of the instructors and I did not hear any complaints.

Any properly rated pilot with a legal 2-place machine can gives rides all day and is certainly welcome to at Mentone.

There is no need to have a CFI cert to give rides unless you plan on offering instruction and I sure did not see anyone getting log book sign offs from Ron!

You are going to have to be much more clear about what you are accusing because I just don't see anything wrong here with the FAA rules or even any problems with good sportsmanship and fly-in fun.

.

Steve, this is just silly... please drop it and whatever grudge you hold.

Ron It Seems You Are Singled Out Here, Not Fair At All.... Your Not The Only One Flying A Two Place Machine At Mentone This Year....He Probly Didnt Know That You Hold The Ratings That You Do.

I Think Steve Is Trying To Say, More About The Faa( Law) Than Anything Here. And Its Not Fair To The Instructors That Had To Stick By The Book And Put In The Hr's And Money For The Ratings They Hold.. Just To See The Law Broken In Brad Daylight... From His Stand Piont!!! Not Mine....

Myself,,, I Think That If You Have Spent The Time And What Ever Goes With That ,to Be A Safe And Responsable Pilot And Have A Two Place Machine.. You Should Be Able To Carry A Passenger If You Like. (but Not A Pilot That Has Not Much Time In And No Exp,and Or Low Time Single Moveing Over To A 2 Place.
I Entend On Flying My Single For Atleast 100 Hrs Or So Before Moveing Into A 2 Place Machine. And Even Then I Will Fly Solo For Additional 50 Or Better Hrs, Before A Passenger Will Hop Aboard. By Then I Should Have All My Time In With The Instructor And Also Hold My Ratings. That Might Be In A Year Or So From Now. Like I Said...(what Ever Goes With That).
But I Do Agree One Should Hold The Right Ratings Before Just Giveing Rides. Most People Will Take That Ride If You Say Come On, Not Even Giveing A Second Thought About,,,, Can This Person Take Me Up And Bring Me Back Safe...
They Just Wont That Ride....eace:

Thank you Tim, I'll get my sport pilot lic then, what fun!!!
I learned something positive too!!!

@billygyro

Well until I know who was flying without the correct rating I'm going to assume it was fun and safe and legal and NOT enough instructors to give all the folks who asked a ride as I observed.

Great we are back to it was just safe, legal, and fun as I observed.
I love happy ending.

billygyro said:

Ron It Seems You Are Singled Out Here, Not Fair At All.... Your Not The Only One Flying A Two Place Machine At Mentone This Year....He Probly Didnt Know That You Hold The Ratings That You Do.

I Think Steve Is Trying To Say, More About The Faa( Law) Than Anything Here. And Its Not Fair To The Instructors That Had To Stick By The Book And Put In The Hr's And Money For The Ratings They Hold.. Just To See The Law Broken In Brad Daylight... From His Stand Piont!!! Not Mine....

Myself,,, I Think That If You Have Spent The Time And What Ever Goes With That ,to Be A Safe And Responsable Pilot And Have A Two Place Machine.. You Should Be Able To Carry A Passenger If You Like. (but Not A Pilot That Has Not Much Time In And No Exp,and Or Low Time Single Moveing Over To A 2 Place.
I Entend On Flying My Single For Atleast 100 Hrs Or So Before Moveing Into A 2 Place Machine. And Even Then I Will Fly Solo For Additional 50 Or Better Hrs, Before A Passenger Will Hop Aboard. By Then I Should Have All My Time In With The Instructor And Also Hold My Ratings. That Might Be In A Year Or So From Now. Like I Said...(what Ever Goes With That).
But I Do Agree One Should Hold The Right Ratings Before Just Giveing Rides. Most People Will Take That Ride If You Say Come On, Not Even Giveing A Second Thought About,,,, Can This Person Take Me Up And Bring Me Back Safe...
They Just Wont That Ride....eace:

Click to expand...

Thanks Billy, And speaking of hours... I didn't log hours in any of the gyros I flew except the last two and between those two alone I have close to 250 flight hours. I flew a whole lot more when I first got into gyros than I have the last 2 year or so, I suspect that my total time in gyros is somewhere close to 750 or more total hours. I have more than double that total in fixed wings. Not that any of that makes me a high time pilot by any means of the imagination :angel:

Ron It was easy to tell you become one with the machine and the air! Some pilot have it from the first time they touch the controls they just get it!
You really understand and feel it all as much as anything else, it can't be described, I suspect birdy is the same!
Some instructors I've known don't get it. Yet all of our instructors could teach almost anyone to fly! Well, all but 1 women we tried to trained could. She had gone to 3 schools before us and had over 100+ hours. She quit when she landed at Brown field (she thought) except it was a military base Miramar = Topgun and they surrounded her with jeeps and 50 cal's.

You fly inside the envelope at the edges only some times but so do I! This is safe as long as all who fly with me know the risks. Otherwise lets all scrap our aerobatic planes and just quit sharing the fun at all.

I know that Chris was booked most the time,when I flew with him I had to wait until he had time and by then the wind had kicked up with a strong cross wind, so there went my chance to practice landings. thankfully Chris refunded the portion of the money i had paid him for the unflown time.

I could have gone for a ride with Ron for free and who knows he might have even let me try to shoot some landings, but instead I chose to fly with Chris and get the time logged.

even though my flight was not great when i tryed to land and go around, chris wrote it in my log book in a manner that made it at least look good on paper. so at least that is some more legal CFI time logged.

Steve I really was disappointed you did not show up I really wanted to fly in the black and talk to ya some more about that parsons parham gyro that is at your field for sale.

on another note, on the way Home Ron even commented about why didn't i ask for a ride with him. and i told him he looked busy taking others for rides. all where freind and their girl freinds from the forum. and not one time did he ask or even hint about anyone paying him.

P.S. Chris was chargeing $170.00 an hour for Dual , was going for $80.00 worth. even that was a lot of money a gyro can't burn that much so you tell me why the CFI's don't have more people wanting rides. if i had not wanted dual and someone said $170.00 an hour I would just walk away. even at the old fly in's gyro rides where at least $40.00
gees you can go for any helicopter ride at an airshow for $25.00 what gives with these prices hell when my business partner had his hughes he only charged $135.00 an hour for dual. I hate to say it but sometimes I think gyro instruction is way over priced compared to other aircraft. it is not a high maintanace helicopter! simple rotor system and a pusher engine

the CFI I have been training with is still only $140.00 an hour.

Tim your points are very valid a brand new Cessna cost what 1/2 mill about and a new gyro costs 80K or less. It is more expensive it's that stupid supply and demand thing. Not enough supply even for such limited new demand.

barnstorm2 said:

Passengers? Not with out at least a sport pilot rating in gyroplanes.

Ron has every right to take all the passengers up he wants to. He does not even need a current medical to meet his sport pilot gyroplane requirements.
Any properly rated pilot with a legal 2-place machine can gives rides all day and is certainly welcome to at Mentone.

There is no need to have a CFI cert to give rides unless you plan on offering instruction and I sure did not see anyone getting log book sign offs from Ron!


.

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Tim,
If I build a two place machine (Experimental not Light sport) and have a sportpilot gyro license, I can take a passanger for a ride? or does the machine have to be registered and airworthy light sport also?

Tim, John, the rates ( 140-170$ per hour ) are not over priced. If you run the numbers and try to do this as a business then you will see those rates are reasonable.

A 25$ helicopter ride is usually a very short ride with 3 paying passengers ( making it a 75$ ride! And they could do 5-6 rides a hour meaning they are getting between 375$ to 450$ per hour giving rides. )