Mentone '10 CFI Meeting

Totally Correct Ron on all your comments


would it bother you if I came to your area and cut your clients grass for nothing, think about it,, really,, thinnk about it today as you do your work.

would they allow me to do that because, they like you less,, thats what is being said.. No one owes anyone else a living at the functions, Jim and I have both hung signs there at my tent area. This entire thread has gotten outta subject.. I'd much rather sit down and talk about things than do it on this forum..

Surely I wouldn't like some things you say, or vice versa..but if either of us said or did anythng to keep the other, safe. sharp and on point, don't you/we think it'd be well worth it..

I do,,, but thats just me.

Take Care.......
 
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Ron or Steve- I would trust either of you flying with you. I havent flown with Steve...but I have with Ron. I distinctly remember Ron taking me up at Bensen Days 2008. He was very cautious and mother henny as I was flying. He would caution me on the fact that we didnt have an excess of power considering the size of the two of us.

It is safe to say that Ron and I are friends...but not close buddies. I enjoy watching Ron demonstrate when he is flying solo ...what a gyro can do. It shows me that my flying is well within the safe side of the box , as Ron can come close to flying out near the edges of the box so to speak.

I bet Ron has influenced more people to get involved in gyros than most any current person out there. I have heard him repeatedly tell potential customers to go see Steve or Jim for some training.

Steve and Jim, I have the deepest respect for your flying skills, and you two are icons in my book. I think you just dont hear Ron personally telling people to go see you two. I swear I have many times.


Stan
 
Steve, thats the thing... like Stan said. No one is out there illegally training people ( well there was that one skinny feller in Florida doing that, but someone was a snitch and he ended up with the FAA paying him a visit ) ..... If people want training, they are sent to you guys.

If someone wants a ride at a fly-in, that is not hurting or stealing away anyones business.

Like it has been said many times over, no one is giving rides when you guys aren't. I personally only will take someone for a flight if they are

1. specifically interested in buying or demoing a Dominator.... can't demo a Dominator by flying a RAF or a Parsons

2. they are a personal friend of mine....... Example, If Matt Notovney wants to go for a ride with me, or wants me to take his wife for a ride, I think I should be able to. I shouldn't say No, you have to buy a ride with McGowan or Logan if you or your wife wants to fly here.

3. if the CFI's that are there and appear to be working (and not held up in their camper or off in some kind of meeting or forum) have too long of a list of people wanting rides, but not enough time to do it, I would rather give them a ride, show them what flying a gyro is all about and put that spark in them, than to see them go home without a flight.


Be honest with yourself, how many people have approached you at a fly-in for a flight and you have blown them off? Either told them they are too heavy, or your too busy, or how about they just come to Macon Georgia for that intro flight, etc....

I go to the fly-ins and I tell all the strangers who approach me for a flight, that I am not there as a CFI or there specifically to give rides, but you guys are, and point to Mcgowans and Logans or whoever else is there. I tell the person to go to them for the flight. At least 8 out 10 times, the person comes back and says they were told the instructors are all booked up for the day or that they were too heavy, etc.... If I have the time, and I look at the CFI's and see that they are in fact very busy, then sure I will give someone a ride.

To compare it to grass cutting, a more fair comparison but be to say... there is 100 homes up the street, the homeowners are thinking about they might like Lawnservice. I ride by there everyday in my truck with the mowers in tow. But I am too busy to mow their lawn right now. So you come along and mow them one time, the homeowner may give you 5 bucks to cover your gas, and meanwhile you gave them my phone number. Some of them, maybe 25 percent of them decide that Wow, having someone else take care of the lawn is great and they call me up and get on contract with me. What did you cost me in lost business? Nothing, because I was too busy to go mow those 100 yards. But because you did have the time, all 100 yards got cut and 25 of those yards decided they want full time lawncare and they called me and signed a contract. If anything I should be thanking you for helping generate interest and sending me more work.

Or I could be a dick about it and bitch and complain that your not a professional, you don't have your lawncare rating, your dangerous with the mower, and you stole business away from me because no one is allowed to cut someone elses yard except for me.

It would be different if I were approaching your current students, or telling people who I have given rides to, that I can train them to fly, that they can come see me, that I could train them for 120$ a hour verses your 170$ a hour. That would be stealing your business....

I hope this makes sence.
 
What about a Gyro CFI Union?
I sent out or personally invited most of them back in 2005 at Mentone.
Mr. Gremminger will remember that . . .
Will that create a confort zone and bumper for them?
Anotha thing, you can fly anyone you want anywhere you want but at the Official Fly-ins, what is up with that?
Heron
A little deedy with a certain gas station, for bulk business during the event, will, I am sure, render some free gas to help CFI´s with expenses. It is a lot of gas we use . . .
 
The subject matter is a person thats NOT Qualified or Safe in the first place, showing actions at a PRA function or anywhere else and everyones head turns the other way,, Then they're PAID for it.. thats NOT the way it use to be.
.

Not Qualified?

PAID?

Please explain.


Since Jim's Schizophrenic Posts have him disagreeing with himself on this issue perhaps you can tell us what the deal is.***

Every year I have been involved the PRA has gone to GREAT lengths to make sure everyone given a 2-Place pass card has been current and LEGAL to take passengers I frankly don't see what the deal is.

If some one is not qualified to take passengers they are stopped PRONTO. Therefore this should be a non-issue yes?

As far as payments goes, Pro-Rata unless you are comm & loda or certified. Again, not permitted, non-issue.

As has been covered infinitum, in this thread any CFI wanting to fill his or her time at the convention with paying customers needs only to let themselves be known. I am also more then willing to publish instructor bios and advertisements and hand these out free to all attendees.



Jim's posts***
Heron,
If the PRA were to follow the regulations set by the FAA, and people who aren't CFIs stopped giving demo flights and flight instruction then you would see more instructors come out to the fly-ins.
-Jim
Now this comment just doesn't hold any water. I am not addressing people who are there working hard to earn a living but rather just the opposite. I never accused anyone of being in violation and did not post any kind of falsification.
 
...would it bother you if I came to your area and cut your clients grass for nothing, think about it,, really,, thinnk about it today as you do your work...

Steve, if your neighbor is out of town on vacation, should you be prohibited by the Popular Lawnmowing Association from cutting his grass while he's gone because Ron's trying to make a living? How far do we want to take this? Can't take out mom's trash because I'm putting some handyman out of work?

Maybe we should also have the missing side of this conversation, about the people who come to Mentone looking for a "ride," and are talked into paying for expensive "instruction" they never wanted just to qualify under someone's LODA.

EAA has the Young Eagles program, which has given well over a million newbies their first flights free of charge, because they have research showing it will grow the sport, and fixed-wing CFIs understand this is seeding their future business. Are things so different just because the wing spins?
 
Respecting brothers and others.

Respecting brothers and others.

Some of you here are not old enough to know the history of Mentone.

Mentone was a GYRO Manufacturer and CFI event for the INDUSTRY. MFG's were given time at the event to showcase and fly their aircraft. CFI's were perhaps given a bit more respect and courtesy than they currently are.

I dare say that Steve Mcgowan & Jim Logan have forgotten more than most of you will ever know.

There are fish stories and then there are the ones that pots dare call the kettle black Mr Tim O'Connor. So you went to take a check ride in your own ship and could not fly from the rear seat ?......... :twitch: For someone who supposedly crammed a hard drives worth of knowledge in prep for your CFI exam into your head you have forgotten something that any CFI would have / should have taught you from the start......Common sense 101. To go and take a test to be a CFI means your backside can fly the machine from any seat and any position. CFI means all of the flight tasks are well polished and well oiled from either seat.....It means you are going to "TEACH" a student to fly. Not herd them around the patch in the back seat for 15 or 40 hours playing it safe. There are no "assistant" certificates out there that I know of in the US of A. How were you going to "solo" your students Tim even if you did not get caught in the rear seat issue ?

Frankly the whole disrespectful tone of this thread is disheartening. Turning an industry event into a carnival ride for kids may seem great to some, even overly beneficial... but in reality it does not help our sport one bit when you crunch the numbers. Since the tone of the old vs the new pilots here has degenerated to this, maybe the PRA should redefine its mission statement.

It is not the destination that counts but how you get there.

If there was an unwritten code about only CFI's giving flights maybe it is because of the stellar safety record of lesser "pilots" of years ago and not just a $$ thing ?

I too made a 14 hour trip to B days in 1998. and 2 two Rotors over Carolina's and did not get a chance to fly, or get a paid intro flight from a CFI. Yes it sucked but that's life.

I wanted to fly a gyro and build a gyro so I took all those road trips and time in between to LEARN and be patient and persevere. It is a skill may of you lack and sorely need. It may save your life one day. Sure there were road blocks but I stuck it out and stuck with it. I was greatly humbled by what I learned and somber by how many pilots and wanna be pilots got killed because they "knew better".

It's called patience folks....A lost skill I know... to this push button instantaneous I want it N.O.W. attitude world we live in, but its called PATIENCE..... It means you do not get what you want when you want it.

Learn what you can in the mean time and keep your ears open and your mouth shut. When I was observed doing something unwise or outright stupid and dangerous and I was called on it. I opened my ears and thought, gee that's a darn good point. I should have thought of that but was too caught up in the moment to think it through..... Perspective 101. How things are seen from an individuals point of view.

I have learned something from every CFI I flew with. The most important things they taught me were not in the FAR's or the PRA magazine. It was their life's lessons that they paid dearly for and were kind enough to share with me. In fact such lessons helped me ace my check ride.


Respect, pass it on.

Jonathan
 
Some of you here are not old enough to know the history of Mentone.

Mentone was a GYRO Manufacturer and CFI event for the INDUSTRY. MFG's were given time at the event to showcase and fly their aircraft. CFI's were perhaps given a bit more respect and courtesy than they currently are.
Jonathan

Boy have times changed! There are hardly any manufacturers that even show up any more. Ernie was the only one there that I was aware of (Dominator line). There were a couple of Dealers there [Greg with his Magni and I was there (without any Butterfly machines to show)] and that was it.

The event was planned with a period of time each day for a showcase so Manufacturers and Dealers could strut their stuff and showcase what they have to sell, and No One even took advantage of it. Granted, Greg was demoing his Magni all day long each day, but from a marketing standpoint, it sure didn't appear that anyone was trying very hard to attract new customers. We had a lot of people new to our sport there, this year and a lot of good was done by some of the pilots who took some of these people up for a ride to show what it was like. But if we expect to grow this sport we have all got to do a lot more to make it attractive to new potential rotorheads. Think about it!
 
Doug- Good observations. Imagine if all the guys like Tim O'Connor, David Morris, and a few other two place machines weren't offering their time to expose gyros to more people. I feel the PRA is for all of us to benefit. I personally will never be an instructor, but if I were, I bet I would have been booked solid. I encourage more people like David Morris, Ron Awad, to keep doing what they are doing. Most of us can see it is a benefit. Stan
 
...Turning an industry event into a carnival ride for kids may seem great to some, even overly beneficial... but in reality it does not help our sport one bit when you crunch the numbers...

Jonathan, I for one would love to read the numbers you're looking at. While seeing others have as difficult a time as you did finding that intro flight may bring you satisfaction in some way, how does it help the sport, manufacturers, or even CFIs? Share those numbers.

The safety issue, if it's real and not just an excuse, may need it's own separate discussion. PRA's passcard system may be the appropriate mechanism if action is needed. Limiting the carrying of passengers to CFIs won't get it done. I've only been to the big fly-ins a few times, but enough to notice that an instructor's certificate obviously doesn't preclude reckless flying with passengers.

The "numbers" at Mentone this year kept all the CFIs at the event as busy as they cared to be. As Doug mentioned, there were no manufacturers or dealers interested in the scheduled showcase opportunities. Simply attempting to ground newcomers who can't get (and don't need) time with a CFI accomplishes...what?

If Young Eagles is a "carnival ride," well...eye of the beholder, I guess.
 
It is hard to point out the small problems that arise at any event, some people get defensive and the whole purpose of the discussion, gets defeated.
But aside of the family feeling we get, some part of the public goes there expecting something more "markety" and hich tech.
There is the fulcrum of our problem, CFI are counting on those and some of the friends of gyrofriends, besause the later already are set around one of our chapters or flying group.
Yu may not remember but when I went to Mentone, great memories and lifetime experience, I lined up some of my observations and got the pie right in the face!
So, lets get talking about a better reception for the general public and get a business inside the show.
thanks
Heron
 
Respect again..

Respect again..

One camp is the established CFI's that remember how things were.

The other camp is the new blood that has a vision of how things should be.
Both parties do not understand each other. I think if there was an open discussion to clarify the business model I think it would benefit everyone greatly. I cannot believe it has taken this long to come to a head.

As far as my personal accomplishments. No one cared when I did not fly, and no one really cares when I do. Maybe I am wrong but I did not get any cards or sympathy letters from other pilots the last half of 2008 and all of 2009 when I was ground bound over family responsibilities and maintenance issues.


Young eagles is a totally different concept and depending on how its employed during a fly in it might be beneficial. Frankly I am at odds about having people stand in line like folks at an amusement park during a busy and hetic event in order to get a "ride". Flying is serious business. Doubt me ? Go look at the NTSB database of accidents... . Mentone is trying to be all things to all people and I think that with enough planning and enough communication things can come together and it could be a great fly in for everyone. When I fly passengers its for fun and education. It is not "just a joy ride". You want a joy ride, go to Great Adventure or Epcot.

Many pilots like myself will not come to these events anymore over regards to personal safety issues. I have had other pilots tell me that they will not bring family, friends, wives, or girlfriends because they "fear" for their safety.

As a relative new comer to the world of aviation I can see what the established CFI's gripe is all about (Steve & Jim) . I can also see what Ron and others mean when they are in their right to fly anyone and everyone for whatever reason as long as they can strap on a helmet and fit in the seat.

The bigger questions everyone should be asking is "Why" are there no manufactures coming to Mentone ? Why has the big rotorcraft event of the year abandoned by the big producers ? Sport Copter, Butterfly, Air Command, etc. etc... Fuel is cheap now. Travel is a business expense. Soon the CFI's who have had a belly full of bad attitude and too much mouth will be long gone too. Maybe I am wrong, maybe someone has it all figured out and there is an "end game" for all of this.

Maybe it will work itself out, maybe it won't.

J




Jonathan, I for one would love to read the numbers you're looking at. While seeing others have as difficult a time as you did finding that intro flight may bring you satisfaction in some way, how does it help the sport, manufacturers, or even CFIs? Share those numbers.

The safety issue, if it's real and not just an excuse, may need it's own separate discussion. PRA's passcard system may be the appropriate mechanism if action is needed. Limiting the carrying of passengers to CFIs won't get it done. I've only been to the big fly-ins a few times, but enough to notice that an instructor's certificate obviously doesn't preclude reckless flying with passengers.

The "numbers" at Mentone this year kept all the CFIs at the event as busy as they cared to be. As Doug mentioned, there were no manufacturers or dealers interested in the scheduled showcase opportunities. Simply attempting to ground newcomers who can't get (and don't need) time with a CFI accomplishes...what?

If Young Eagles is a "carnival ride," well...eye of the beholder, I guess.
 
Waistin your time and breath Auto.... Just a Waste.. and PW,, in say 3-5 thousand hours,, you may have something worthy to say.. Thankyou anyway..
And thankyou Ron for your acute observations of my weight limitations,, I know you don't have any..
 
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PW,, in say 3-5 thousand hours,, you may have something worthy to say.. Thankyou anyway..

Steve, what if after he gets more then 5k hours he tells you that "you can learn very important lessons from people that have less hours then you do"? :eek: :lol:

I have about 48,000+ hours experience in the subject matter I teach for a living. I find I still learn things from people that are novices, hobbyists, semi-pro amateurs, peers and elders.

"Teachers open the door, but you must enter by yourself." -Proverb

.

.
 
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By the time he gets 5k I won't be around Tim.. and your time in on the ground, not in the air as an instructor as yet..

When you get to the point you can instruct as well as you take pix,, You'll be Fantastic.. Don't let your confidance and arrogance get you killed.
as you said Tim, Ya Gotta start somewhere..


WAYYYYYYYYYYY too much testosterone in here.. I don't need any more,,of any of it...believe it's time to do something else..

Walmart Greeter, perhaps...
 
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By the time he gets 5k I won't be around Tim..

and your time in on the ground, not in the air as an instructor as yet..

When you get to the point you can instruct as well as you take pix,, You'll be Fantastic.. Don't let your confidance and arrogance get you killed.
as you said Tim, Ya Gotta start somewhere..


WAYYYYYYYYYYY too much testosterone in here.. .

1. No way, my money is on you out doing Captain Johnny Miller.

2. True

3. Thanks, I hope so.

4. Yep, also true.

.
 
I've been reading this thread and see people talking about what is best for this sport and how important it is to get prospective students in the air. What I'm seeing is something I could not honestly say is best for our sport or will get prospective students interested. When you see this type of mud slinging it is only a deterant. If this is the way we want to portray our sport is by trying to out trash each other I believe there is more damage being done than good.

We all need to repect our CFI's, they are the ones that will get the pilots in the air. I have not been to Steve's but I know he maintains two machines for students to beat up so he can continue to maintain them. I have been to Ron Menzie's and see a first class training facility and he also has two machines for students to tear up. There is a great deal invested in these training facilities and it is done for the students, not the instructors. Without students there would not be a need for instructors.

I met Steve in 2002 in Texas. He did not know me and knew nothing about me but when my daughter said she would like to get a ride he took her up for the ride of her life and refused to accept any money for it, now I can honestly say he is not in it just for the money.

Even though giving rides without being a CFI is legal and your intentions are good we still need to respect the ones that got us flying in the first place. We also need to realize that for the most part the CFI's have a much larger investment in this sport than we do. Mentone was very short on CFI's this year and I'm sure the rides given by non CFI's really helped. We do need to make sure that the visitors who also have an investment by taking time off work, traveling to the event, and paying all the expenses that go along with being there don't have to go home disappointed.

This sport is expensive, difficult to get training unless your lucky enough to live near a CFI, and takes a lot of time to reach your goals. I can see where both sides have very valid points but argueing it out in this manner is not going to make things any better in the eyes of the ones we say we are "doing whats best" for. These issues should be worked out at the events between the parties involved, not on the forum for all to see.
 
300 lbs is my weight limit. At that weight limit, my gyro still performs well and rotor rpm is well within the design parameters. The gyro is in balance pending the 300lbs person is in the rear seat.
 
...and PW,, in say 3-5 thousand hours,, you may have something worthy to say.. Thankyou anyway...

Steve, thanks for your vote of confidence, but not sure why it matters. If I get there, I'll still never try to tell you, or Jim, or anyone else how to instruct. But I'll put my "hours logged" in growing organizations and promotional events up against anyone in this conversation. That's the only reason I commented.

Jonathan, don't listen to him, you're not wasting your breath. As you note, this is a conversation that needed to happen. Anything suppressed this long can come out awkwardly. I appreciate your thoughts.

Anytime old thinking and new thinking collide, consider results. If PRA is struggling to deal with explosive growth in membership and the sport, by all means, keep doing the same things you've always done.
 
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