The Burgess conundrum!

Vance

Gyroplane CFI
Staff member
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
18,357
Location
Santa Maria, California
Aircraft
Givens Predator
Total Flight Time
2600+ in rotorcraft
I love to expand my flying world and each time I land at a new airport there is a special thrill and new people to meet. I feel that head winds can be a challenge for a 65 mile per hour aircraft and when it rains I get wet. I would fly faster but it seems chaotic. I have flown for more than 5 hours in a day and I was ready for more.

I thought about flying to Mentone and Oshkosh but I feel it is a little beyond my current proficiency. I drove almost 6,000 miles on the Mentone loop.

There was a squall line across Kansas that I would have run into if I was on the southern route to miss the big altitude over the Rocky Mountains. A missed a tornado by 50 miles in Iowa. The first night I was in Rochester there were thunderstorms from Chicago all the way to Mentone with some serious winds. There were Thunderstorms and big winds in Idaho Springs, Colorado. I have run into big hail headed across Texas on my way to Bensen Days.

I don’t feel that the Predator is well suited to this sort of adventure.

I was working on the design of a tractor autogiro with a canopy. A higher cruse would help to cover the distance and headwinds would be less of a challenge. I would not have the cooling problems that I have with the Predator and I would not get as wet when it rains.

As I wandered home there were lots of motorcycles returning from a big event to the north of me. Many had their bikes on trailers. I feel that this truncates the adventure. I feel that the journey is the point. Before I found Aviation I used to ride around 20,000 miles every year. As a young person I would not ride with a windshield because I liked to feel the wind against my skin. It did not limit my range. I have a windshield now because I ride at the speed limit and I find the wind makes me tired.

Enter the Burgess conundrum! I was learning to fly the Snowbird for two hours with Chris. He is an excellent instructor. I loved seeing the ground directly beneath me in my peripheral vision. It gave me a sense of progress across the farmland with its straight roads and flat land. As we climbed out and turned crosswind at 45 miles per hour at KRCR I felt the wind slap me on both sides of my face. I recaptured some of the joy I found as a youth riding motorcycles without a windshield. I loved that! In short I love the feel of the wind and the visual perspective in an open gyroplane.

An open pusher would be slower and offer less wind protection. I feel that this would make it less suitable to fly to Mentone than the Predator.

The weather made flying to Mentone in anything a time consuming challenge.

Any autogiro is not well suited for a 6,000 mile cross country flight. The Predator is not well suited to riding on a trailer. A simple, lighter pusher would lend itself to crossing the country on a trailer.

A trailer would make it less of an adventure but more practical.

And open pusher like the Predator with a body and windshield has cross country capability but is limited in a practical sense.

A tractor with a big engine and a canopy with its higher top speed and better weather protection would be better suited for cross country. I would be more isolated from some of what I love about flying an open autogiro. Weather is still a very big challenge.

A simple pusher without a body or windshield would immerse me in the autogiro flying experience in a way that enhances the tactile experience but limits the cross country capability. I good trailer and a clever loading scheme would enhance the cross country capability because I could land and load up if we ran into weather but I couldn’t fly cross country two up because someone has to drive the tow vehicle.

When I drive to a fly in and have nothing to fly I am struck by the reality that it is not a drive in but a fly in and I have missed the adventure of flying in.

I would be grateful to hear of the ways that others have addressed their personal Burgess Conundrum.

Thank you, Vance
 
Great post as usual, Vance.
I feel exactly the same way. I want open frame but it's a fair-weather cross-country machine.

I’m going with a dominator unltrawhite I think so far and a trailer with posts at each end so I can support my blades without removing them. Then I'm going to pay some of my kids or grand kids to go on each adventure and be the following or preceding ground crew should there be head winds.
When the weather is bad we will drive through it and then take off from country roads if I have too.

This is all theory, and I waiting for your experience to bring me back to reality!!
 
Hello John,

I have noticed that most people don’t trailer their aircraft with the blades on.

With an autogiro it is very easy to install the blades when you get there and even if the blades are well supported and manage road shocks well they make the trailer longer.

Thank you, Vance
 
You underestimate my laziness my friend!

I Don't want to hurt the blades that's all. But if it just takes a longer trailer we'll make it longer.
The kids and grand kids will have to drive it the most? Hehehehe

Thank you Vance
 
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Perhaps your design you might use fuselage similar to the Rans S7.

Fully enclosed or fly with doors off on both sides.
 

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Hello Jeff,

Designing the tractor wasn’t the problem. It looks like a Pits with the wings pulled off, a different tail and a rotor on the top. It is not that simple, but that is the concept aesthetically.

The conundrum is that, for me, the most fun to fly autogiro is completely naked.

A completely stripped autogiro is slow and the pilot is exposed to the elements.

This is not good for cross country flights.

A fast gyroplane removes some of the joy of naked flight but is better suited to cross country.

A trailer is a way to go cross country but it is not the same as flying.

Driving cross country is definitely not cross country flying.

I suspect that the only answer is to have both.

I am trying to better understand the competing design compromises.

I loved the Snowbird; it was smooth, quiet and light. It was as much like the dream of flight as anything I have flown. There was very little to remind me of the machine and a lot to remind me that I was flying. It had Chris in the back seat looking out for me.

Thank you, Vance
 
Vance,

The solution is obvious...you need more gyros!

An open pusher.
A semi-enclosed pusher.
A fully-enclosed pusher.
An open tractor.
A semi-enclosed tractor.
A fully-enclosed tractor.

Also one & two-seat versions of the above.
An even dozen aircraft would fill your needs. :)
 
LOL....he's got Vance Figured out!!

LOL....he's got Vance Figured out!!

Vance,

The solution is obvious...you need more gyros!

An open pusher.
A semi-enclosed pusher.
A fully-enclosed pusher.
An open tractor.
A semi-enclosed tractor.
A fully-enclosed tractor.

Also one & two-seat versions of the above.
An even dozen aircraft would fill your needs. :)

Finally...someone else has said what I've been
telling him all along! You've got pegged Mike!!

Cheers! Sgurl*Ed
 
Vance,

The solution is obvious...you need more gyros!

An open pusher.
A semi-enclosed pusher.
A fully-enclosed pusher.
An open tractor.
A semi-enclosed tractor.
A fully-enclosed tractor.

Also one & two-seat versions of the above.
An even dozen aircraft would fill your needs. :)

I suspect that is not practical.

Too many mistresses tend to complicate one’s life.

I probably don’t need an open tractor.

I am hoping someone will speak from experience and talk about how they deal with competing design goals.

Is it better to fly long distance in comfort?

Is it better to fly open and experience the flight more intensely?

Is there room for compromise?

I suspect that a tractor should have a windshield.

I suspect that it is not fun to fly faster than 60 miles per hour without a windshield in a pusher.

I know that an open autogiro has been flown from coast to coast.

I saw lots of slow aircraft at Air Venture that had flown considerable distance to get there.

I saw a lot of aircraft at Air Venture that had managed the weather.

This is new for me.

I got by with only four or five motorcycles for most of my riding life. I am concerned that autogiros may be more specialized.

Thank you, Vance
 
Vance,
You should supplement the Predator with a single place open pusher gyro. Put it on a trailer and tow it to the the fly-ins that are too far to fly the Predator to.
 
Thank you Tim,

That seems like a sensible answer.

It doesn’t seem like towing an autogiro across the country is much of an adventure.

I may find that when I do fly across the country that once is enough of an adventure to last a lifetime.

Thank you, Vance
 
Vance, it kinda sounds like you should trade me your gyro for my gyro.... It loves riding on a trailer and there is no pods or windshields to spoil your view.

As for the rest of your questions, I think I would not want to try to fly cross country more than a few hundred miles at most, not unless I was retired and had no deadlines to meet as far as being back by a specific time for work. I trailer my gyro to the fly -ins and the gyro has not been hurt by it and I get to enjoy driving a comfortable truck, I get to fly more than enough once I get to the fly-in!
 
Vance,

Food for thought:

1. Did the people at Mentone, who trailered their aircraft in, appear to be having fun?

2. Would you have enjoyed having a nice, light, single seat aircraft at Mentone?

Your friend,

Jim
 
Vance, flying a larger two place "battleship class" gyro is fun for sharing the adventure with others. But if you want to go have the most fun in a gyro, a single place open style gyro is by far the best choice. As your piloting skills continue to improve, it looks like you may want to take advantage of the far wider flight envelope available in a open single. Once you have flown both types ,you will clearly understand that it is like flying a different aircraft. Stable single place machines are very forgiving, and the views are unlimited.

Few gyros are made for attempting long cross country trips(yours is much better than most ). I have yet to have more pure= wind in your face= fun , per hour than anything else with my SportCopter Vortex.

Scott Heger,Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH
 
Vance, and all --

any VFR aircraft (or VFR pilot) has limits as a travel machine. Even a powerful IFR plane with an autopilot has limits. I was discussing that with my dad recently (he used to fly a Cessna T210 on business, hundreds of hours a year).

I just flew a Piper Warrior (for those of you not fixed-wing-savvy, a small four-seat trainer) to Washington on business, for a day of meetings. Because of a complex of lows over New England, sitting and generating thunderstorms, it took me all week to get back home (nothing flies in thunderstorms -- not even birds -- just idiots and lost souls). The plane was well equipped with King IFR and autopilot, and I had a usable handheld GPS, but I'm a weather wuss, especially when the weather comes with electricity and hail.

The old saying, "time to spare, go by air," remains true for everything but the Part 121 carriers and the military warplanes (and even they are at the mercy of Mother Nature and don't go in the red echoes).

It is great fun dropping in on new airports and meeting new people, that's for sure. (New friends this trip in Pottstown, PA, and Gaithersburg and Annapolis, MD, and "Atlantic" the FBO at Bridgeport are a great bunch... expensive hangar but reasonable gas, and they took care of me and another poor fellow who was trying to deliver an AirCam to its new owner on the other side of the red stuff).

I think the reason that you are having trouble making a decision, Vance, is that there is no bad decision. The only bad decision is not to fly at all, and you, our friend, are past that point.

I've gotta go back to DC. Of course, I'm going to fly. What else?

cheers

-=K=-
 
Kevin I agree every plane I've owned has had me grounded and waiting for weather.
So next year I will fly to Mentone in a gyro but the only way I can assure I get there on time is to plan the driving time. Then fly in fair weather while being chased by my trailer if even a head wind comes up that would delay my driving time arrival just land trailer up and drive past the front. This is the only way I could come up with to almost guarantee I arrive on time.
 
You guys make waiting for weather sound like a great adventure.

Thank you, Vance
 
You guys make waiting for weather sound like a great adventure.
Thank you, Vance

I'm landing and driving through it to get there on time or waiting on the ground for it to pass. Don't have a lot of choices buddy.
 
For me the solution to Vance's conundrum lies within instead without: a matter of adjusting my attitude and expectations to the aircraft I have available.

When I fly my gyro cross country, the trip is the important part and getting there a distant second. I know I can get anywhere in my gyro given enough time. And time is what lets me savor the trip. So it's a win-win situation for me.

If I want to get somewhere I rent a FW (enclosed, fast speed, less fun to savor the trip) and switch to my "hi tech" mode. In this mode I enjoy filing IFR, fiddeling with autopilots and other gadgets and take pride in operating such a complex piece of machinery to make it do what I want.

And if I really have to get somewhere at a particular time I buy an airline ticket.

-- Chris.
 
John: I have a sensible plan. By two Ultrawhites! Keep the second one fairly close to Mentone....say....Paxton, Il. You can keep it year round in my Helihanger for free....and next year fly to Mentone. I will also keep it exercised regularly and keep it pristine. Deal? huh? ok? :lol:


Stan
 
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