Gyro Instructor Career

Kewlwill

Newbie
Joined
Jul 6, 2007
Messages
48
Location
UAE
Aircraft
UH-1H, Cessna R172
Just wondering, is there a demand for a gyro instructor in your place?
Someone who is on full time basis or making a career out of it.
 
Texas has a need for one.
 
Will, there's probably not enough demand anywhere in the US for a full-time CFI doing just gyroplanes.

From the perspective of an individual who wants training and can't find it within 800 miles, there's demand. From the perspective of a CFI who needs a steady flow of students to justify quitting his day job, not so much.

From what I'm told, gyroplanes are blossoming in Europe. Perhaps we'll one day have factory-built gyros available here. If that happens, CFIs here will stay busy!
 
I've thought long and hard about the training conundrum that is part and parcel of Gyro's here in the U.S...and has been for decades.
The PRA lacks members and by extension the funds to actually be a forceful POSITIVE voice with FAA and within Aviation in general (unlike the EAA).
This CAN BE changed..!

Greg Grimminger is a tireless and outstanding example of the effects just one person can make in our community...were all of us to join with a single voice and purpose...our sport would be better served.

I fully believe that its incumbent upon all of us to push PRA via our local chapters to help create and support a framework that establishes a specially sanctioned and licensed PRA CFI program within each Chapter.
This would immediately increase Chapters, membership, PRA revenues, and safely broaden the sport in our nation.

Were each Chapter to have just ONE CFI...the access to training (now the Achilles heel within our Sport) would be available to aid in the growth of Chapter members and of our Sport. The PRA could be extremely helpful as an Organization in mass promotion and in the negotiation of low cost "group" insurance rate for these CFI's to assist in establishing them locally.

It would be desirable for the National organization to create a uniform general CFI program framework: a commonly agreed upon training syllabus, and a generic and basic "Safe" Airframe design just for training that would be easy to construct, and inexpensive to build...free blueprints and materials lists provided to all chapters that members might wish to jointly construct, and "Authorized" major materials sources.

For example: a Parsons type tandem...easy and inexpensive to build and maintain, with a Yamaha 120Hp engine.
Keep the materials acquisition all within our community to support those bringing great technology to the larger market...like awarding manufacturing contracts.

Engines purchased from Racer....Redrives sourced from the best member source, Tires, Seats, Pre-Rotors, etc.
The product suppliers gain the prestige of PRA "Authorized supplier" distinction and VOLUME sales...the end beneficiaries being all chapters and members with safe, reliable training machines that give a uniform Public Image that PRA then can use for mass promotion.

PRA "Authorized" in Chapter CFI's and "Authorized suppliers" would pay a quarterly designation fee of let's say $200- to assist in the nationwide promotion of Training "Centers" at local chapters. The Organization would also provide low cost Ad space specifically for Trainers and Suppliers, slightly higher costs for Ads to those not designated.

Those individuals stepping forward to become participating PRA CFI's, who would actually invest in paying for a machine would have the benefit of National Promotion which would channel students and cash flow to them for their time and money invested, with the cash flow generated from training being wholly the instructors to keep (less the quarterly designation fee). A uniform "Authorized Training Price" could be created for all to benefit from equally.

Suppliers would negotiate pricing with PRA to gain their Authorized status.
These suppliers would benefit from this over all arrangement since sales would mushroom immediately, allowing for greater capital reinvestment to grow their operation to meet demand.
Aspiring "Students", who upon completion of training would desire building a machine of their own, and this would further boost "retail" sales and returns to Suppliers.
Market conditions would foster the establishment of New Chapters in time where no training exists by growing public interest in the sport and in obtaining training.

THE BIG PICTURE is a Win-Win for everyone involved...and would grow the Sport dramatically.

Got a better idea?
...please do share it.

M-M
 
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Mike, I think portions of your ideas have merit, but I also believe recent changes in the regulatory environment provides another avenue to get this moving at the local level.

In the past, CFIs had to join PRA and participate in the 5209 exemption if they wanted to legally be paid to instruct in an experimental. Now that aircraft owners can get a Letter of Deviation Authority (LODA) which is specific to the aircraft and not the instructor, more possibilities might be open.

For example, in our area, two nice two-place machines have recently been completed and inspected. It would seem possible for those owners to apply for a LODA allowing them to be used for instruction by a third-party CFI, meaning an existing helicopter CFI could earn his gyro add-on and instruct part-time without buying a machine.

This starts to look more like the model used in fixed-wing, where many of the aircraft used by flight schools are on programs called "lease-backs." The owner of, say, a Cessna 172 provides the plane for use by the flight school for $x per hour, which helps him defray the costs of ownership. The flight school (or, in our case, the independent flight instructor training students under Part 61) doesn't have to come up with $50K and build his own machine to begin instructing, so he can do it part-time without quitting his day job.

The aircraft owner may also enjoy tax advantages, and doesn't have to spread his fixed costs (hangar rental, depreciation, annuals, insurance etc.) over 50 hours a year. There are few things more expensive than a parked aircraft, and most individually-owned gyros spend lots of time parked. Fixed costs per-hour drop abruptly if your machine is suddenly being used 250 hours a year. Such an arrangement might make it possible for some people who couldn't otherwise afford a gyro to own one.

For that matter, there are probably two-place machines sitting that haven't flown at all in the past year. Hello!

If this turns out to be do-able, any owner of a qualified two-place machine could play a role in improving training availability in his area, and there are lots of helicopter CFIs with holes in their schedules right now who'd probably love the chance to broaden their student bases.

If PRA has a role in this scenario, it might be finding a vendor for hull insurance and financing, which would be the two big issues.
 
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If PRA has a role in this scenario, it might be finding a vendor for hull insurance and financing, which would be the two big issues.

PRA BOD member Stan Foster brought Evolution insurance and the PRA together last year and they had a booth and a presentation at Mentone 08.

I am a customer now.

They have great rates and will insure CFI's. If you are a CFI and want to get very reasonable insurance rates just tell them that you do not let students solo in your training craft and your rate will not be much greater than that of a regular pilot.

Also, Falcon insurance will insure gyro owners/pilots.

.
 
Tim, in the situation I've described, the machine is not owned by the CFI. The tricky part will be for the owner of the machine to get hull insurance which covers it from damage during training operations involving a third-party instructor. Not undo-able, but tricky. Still, they get it done in the fixed-wing world...
 
Great to see this discussion and some serious thinking about how to grow our sport.

I had insurance from Falcon for the Xenon which allowed me to have about 4 different CFI's signed off to fly and do demo flights in it.

On an similar note- if Carter really does get going with their PAV gyros will suddenly get about 1,000 times more publicity than ever before and much of this will raise interest from pilots who will want gyro training. Also many heli CFI's will want to transition- it would be great if our community were prepared to meet the demand and take advantage of that opportunity.

Rob
 
Thank You for that Insurance Info Tim...I'm gonna be looking at both soon for myself (as I get near solo).

My rambling post above was to highlight a possible "Big Picture" approach to involve all participants...PRA central, Chapters, CFI's, Mfg's, and Suppliers in a joint strategy that I think could be effective at so many levels.

PRA often says it lacks the money to "do stuff'...chapters always need more members, CFI's can't get enough students, Mfg's & suppliers need more business to grow and develop the products we want to buy.
If a "woven" plan were to evolve that would serve all these divergent needs, with the end goal of:
1) Getting more CFI's
2) Training more Student members
3) Promoting the Sport-Safe Operations of Gyro's
4) Helping build "business" for suppliers

WE'D ALL HAVE A WINNING SELF PERPETUATING STRATEGY.

I've never seen or heard of anything resembling such a BIG PICTURE plan...namely I'd guess due to the inability of so many folks TO WORK TOWARD THE SAME GOAL.

I'd like Paul to elaborate on possibilities (because I like what he had to say)...just some brain storming to see what we can all cook up.
Maybe SOMETHING will come of this thread wherein PRA may be able to actually use some of these idea's.
Can't hurt to TRY.

M-M
 
Mike, I kinda spent all my elaboration in post #5, but I'll add two ideas.

First, what's that old advice about eating an elephant...take it one bite at a time? I think this is where the local chapters can play a significant role. If we're trying to pump up a national plan requiring choreography of students, instructors, the insurance industry and manufacturers, the first bite is hard to identify. If, on the other hand, we're talking about getting a machine available for training using third-party CFIs in my local area, I know where to start.

I believe if someone demonstrates the model locally, it will be easier to build a case for promotion of the model at a national level. If approval of LSA gyroplanes, success by Carter's PAV, or other unforeseen market force suddenly raises awareness of gyroplanes, that's a bonus, but I think we can start without it.

Second, we don't need to reinvent this wheel. This idea is used all the time in the fixed-wing world. I personally know the owner of a flight school which is also a Cessna Pilot Center (dealer). In at least two cases, he has had students buy their own Cessna 172s to use for their own instruction, then lease the planes back to him for use in training others. It's a win-win deal, and by keeping the airplane busy, it saves money all the way around.

Options for brand new two-place machines suitable for gyro training that would work in a lease-back situation are slim right now. SparrowHawks are not in production; the Sport Copter II won't be widely available anytime soon; RFD won't sell a tandem Dominator to a student; I'm not clear on the status of any new Xenons in the US.

But there are certainly underutilized machines which could be put into service. For example, there are two machines in the Pacific Northwest which might require some work to be airworthy, but are for sale at very low prices right now. The owner of one of them recently announced his willingness to take on a partner in lieu of an outright sale! There have to be other opportunities involving machines which guys have built and paid for, and are not flying enough to justify their fixed costs.

I don't know everything about the LODAs, but apparently a common qualification included is a minimum of 200 or 250 hours in gyroplanes to be eligible to train in the machines. This creates a barrier to entry by new CFIs using add-ons to their helicopter CFI ratings, but many experienced gyro pilots acquiring their CFI ratings would be qualified right out of the box.

Someone who subscribes to the AOPA's prepaid legal services plan might be able to probe the feasibility of these deals with a phone call, at no additional cost.
 
One big thing to keep in mind though is the aircraft category matters - EAB vs standard category changes things quite a bit.

I don't believe the owner can legally lease an EAB aircraft back like that.
 
Brett, the applicable FAR is 91.319(f), which says that no person may lease an aircraft with an experimental certificate except for use towing a light sport or ultralight glider. But, as is the case with paragraph (e) above it, which would disallow paid flight instruction in an experimental, that's the purpose of obtaining a Letter of Deviation Authority.

The FAA issues LODAs for training because we're a unique case, with extremely limited availability of standard category training aircraft. If you're going to apply for a LODA, ask for authorization to deviate from both (e) and (f). Allowing an alternate financial arrangement commonly used to make training in other categories more accessible would be, IMHO, a reasonable request to make of the FAA.

Granted, "reasonable" isn't always the overriding sentiment at your local FSDO...
 
I haven't ever heard of that particular exception being granted though - anyone know of any cases?

I don't think the FAA is likely to be that accommodating unfortunately.
 
Great ideas guys! I’m been trying to implement many of them. But it takes A LOT OF TIME.
Example:
I’ve got a group of folks interested in learning.
But the local chapter doesn't want us or doesn't want to do anything here.
I’ve found two helicopter CFI’s that want to learn and teach gyro’s for us, they are making a living now so this would just be extra income for them.
I’ve set-up holding corp’s for aviation before allowing them to own shares in many aircraft in the group that was leased back to all, and intend to start the same thing here.

But looks like I will have to buy a two place Dom and pay for an instructor to come here to train them and a group of us to actually get them to do it and get this all started and Ernie won’t sell me a two place until I’m experienced single place pilot.

I have never run into so many roads blocks trying to create a new business/hobby.
Of course 99% of my time has been trying to help PRA get in the black.
Once that is finished there will be more time to get it done.

My point, often in life YOU must just do it, or at least get it started especially when you understand it as you do.

We can suggest, implore, and give anyone an exact marketing plan yet they just don’t take the time to do it. Or maybe they just don’ have the time.

I encourage you all of us to try and just start any part of these idea’s you can, once you get it set up others will join you and it may then become a reality.

It’s not that any of these idea are new I can show many old posts, it’s just few are trying, and no one is JUST DOING IT, not even me so it must be hard! But I'm still keep'n on, it's just going to take a lot longer than I thought.
 
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I haven't ever heard of that particular exception being granted though - anyone know of any cases?

Has anyone ever applied? If you don't ask, the answer is always "no."

If the FAA will let some guy in an experimental take money from you to tow your LSA glider or ultralight, I'd think we have a shot. Leasebacks are normal and accepted elsewhere in flight training, and a whole lot less scary than the glider towing!
 
Look for a two place Dominator for sale by a private party.

I found out that Doug Riley's two place one is owned by a fellow in Washington state. He is a forum member. It has the Rotax 912 (or 914?). Maybe he would be interested in a leasing situation with you instead of it gathering dust in a hangar somewhere.

Ron Awad buys and sells his gyros almost as fast as he does motorcycles, boats, cars, and campers/motorhomes. Maybe for the right price he will part with his Yamanator.

Or, look at a two place Air Command, or Butterfly, if you're looking for open frame tandems.
 
Thanks a lot for the info!

As to my opinion on the issue of broadening the gyro network, I think it will be harder if we wait for the changes we wanted to come from the FAA or any other authority. As I see it, the reason why all these regulations are existing is that people in general are not convinced that gyros are realy safe aircrafts.

We start from the bottom going to the top.
If people thinks gyros are safe then coresponding regulations will come up.

Well for a start, my idea is culture should be changed, daredevils and unsafe practices should be condemed and safe flying should be praised.
This will minimize unwanted accidents I think.

Just my opinion.



WILL
 
Doug's Dom

Doug's Dom

Look for a two place Dominator for sale by a private party.

I found out that Doug Riley's two place one is owned by a fellow in Washington state. He is a forum member. It has the Rotax 912 (or 914?). Maybe he would be interested in a leasing situation with you instead of it gathering dust in a hangar somewhere.

It has a 912S (100 hp) in it.

It gathers dust in the shop (at home) only when I'm flying my Magni or my Cessna. Last winter it got to go to Arizona with me (on a trailer) and fly in the Arizona sunshine all winter. This year it'll be the Magni's turn to get out of the Northwest for the winter. :cool:


Neil
 
I was wondering how many gyroplanes are sold each year?

My limited information would suggest the output of Sport Copter and Rotary Flight Dynamics wouldn’t keep one CFI busy.

How many gyroplanes does RAF sell in the USA?

How many Magnis are sold each year?

Doesn’t Greg pretty much take care of training Magni buyers along with the Doctor?

I also wondered how many gyroplanes change hands each year.

Do CFIs advertise?

Where does their business come from?

Where do their students come from?

How many hours a year can a CFI train?

When I was training in Buckeye weather and equipment got in the way a lot.

When I was learning at Santa Maria and had a low wind limit there were many days when I couldn’t fly.

I would think this would limit a CFI to less than 500 hours per year in most locations.

A standard working man year is 2,000 hours, how do you make a living if you can only work 25% of the time?

These are not rhetorical questions.

I am not able to imagine a workable business model for gyroplane training.

Thank you, Vance
 
@Vance
I agree Vance.

My solution was to increase an existing helicopter CFI's income by becoming a gyroplane CFI then all revenue is a new source that wasn't available to him before.
Of course the club would have to buy the two place trainer and lease it back to him in exchange for a discounted instruction price for our club members.

I have two interested, and one is very excited to just fly them too.

PS:
They came over to look at Chris's and Robert's rides on the Boston to San Diego Flight they just finished. It wasn't hard to sell once they saw them.
 
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