MAGNI M24 ORION - the report

Gentleman, would you comment on this statement for me. A knowledgeable friend recently told me he doesn't buy in on the CLT issue. In his opinion it all relates back to the drag of the rotors and drag created by the airframe being equal, in which one cancels out the other or maybe better said, holds the other in check, which may or may not be CLT. If I have his comment correct the outcome is this. When flying S&L suddenly giving or taking away throttle should not cause the nose to pitch up or down, but remain steady in flight?
 
...A knowledgeable friend recently told me he doesn't buy in on the CLT issue. In his opinion it all relates back to the drag of the rotors and drag created by the airframe being equal, in which one cancels out the other or maybe better said, holds the other in check, which may or may not be CLT. If I have his comment correct the outcome is this. When flying S&L suddenly giving or taking away throttle should not cause the nose to pitch up or down, but remain steady in flight?

Let's assume your friend is right. So you fly along and rotor drag balances cabin drag, when suddenly you chop the throttle and the ship's nose doesn't budge. In other words, you take away the thrust moment and the gyro doesn't notice. This is just saying that the thrust moment is zero. And the only instance this happens is when the thrustvector passes through the CG. So your friend just described the basic setup of a CLT gyro.

What I don't get is the statement that "he doesn't buy in on the CLT issue" when on the other hand describing a setup which is CLT.

-- Chris.
 
...drag of the rotors and drag created by the airframe being equal...

That is exactly the problem. Any gyro that flys, HTL or CTL will do the above as long as everything runs smoothly.
However, the big risk is, that you may get into a situation of unloading your rotor, either by gusts or by pilot error. Now suddenly the rotor drag disappears.
Depending on the remaining airspeed you still may have cabin drag, pulling your nose down.
With HTL you certainly have all the horsepower of your prop pushing you over.
According to some calculations here it only takes one or two seconds.

Kai.
 
Gentleman, would you comment on this statement for me. A knowledgeable friend recently told me he doesn't buy in on the CLT issue. In his opinion it all relates back to the drag of the rotors and drag created by the airframe being equal, in which one cancels out the other or maybe better said, holds the other in check, which may or may not be CLT. If I have his comment correct the outcome is this. When flying S&L suddenly giving or taking away throttle should not cause the nose to pitch up or down, but remain steady in flight?
Russ - sorry, but your friend is not so knowledgeable. Rotor drag is not equal to airframe drag. At low airspeed, rotor drag is high and airframe drag is low while at high airspeed, rotor drag is low and airframe drag is high. In fact, rotor drag is not a stand-alone force at all. It is only an imaginary part of the rotor thrust. As you know, the rotor thrust is tilted back (about 9 deg in cruise), which can be divided ON PAPER to lift and drag. When rotor thrust changes, both lift and drag change at the same time and by the same amount.

People who see the rotor as a huge drag chute stabilizing the gyro don't have a very good understanding of how gyros work.
 
I wouldn’t be so sure about that, Udi.:D Here’s what the FAA’s former #1 gyroplane expert had to say about it:

“Helicopters are inherently unstable unless you put a autopilot or some fancy computer device on them. Ask anyone who has tried to learn how to hover (right paulp). All gyroplanes are more stable then helicopters without autopilots because they have a big drag chute they hang from.”
 
Is that why he is 'former'?:)
 
That's not all, Chuck. I have heard from a reputable source that "gyros know where is up and where is down" - this is to say, there are no unstable gyros. Just leave them alone and they will fly straight. It's the people who make them crash!

Oh brother.
 
However, the big risk is, that you may get into a situation of unloading your rotor, either by gusts or by pilot error. Now suddenly the rotor drag disappears.
Depending on the remaining airspeed you still may have cabin drag, pulling your nose down.

Frankly, what could these sits be ?

A max power steep ascend with a sudden stick forward at low fwd speed for sure.

BUT: all Europeans - on which gyro ever - learn in the pilots training this is an absolute NO NO. (And I doubt if one will survive this in a CLT-gyro)

A downdraft on the edge of a thunderstorm cloud ?

Might be, but only if You fly in this zone very slow and then the stick is pulled. Beside this is also an absolute NO NO.

A very light gyro with a 200 hp-engine for sure.

But a gyro like this does not exist.

So what exactly are the situations when a slight HTL might make the difference ?

Angelo
 
With the greatest respect, and by no means tryn to be a smartass Angelo, its very possable to get into a 0 or neg G situation with no input from the pilot.
Once you clock enuff hours, and get more confident, youll loose your fear of ruff air.
In fact, youll find yourself chaseing ruff air, coz its not so boreing.

BUT, dont think for a second you need to fly in bumpy air to experiance neg Gs.
Iv hit 'holes' on glass smooth evenings.

BUT: all Europeans - on which gyro ever - learn in the pilots training this is an absolute NO NO. (And I doubt if one will survive this in a CLT-gyro)
I think your missing the point Angelo.
Its not so much the imbalance in drag that causes the machine to pitch nose down, but the unbalanced HTL.

Might be, but only if You fly in this zone very slow and then the stick is pulled. Beside this is also an absolute NO NO.
Why??

A very light gyro with a 200 hp-engine for sure.
A gyro that JUST flys can still go neg.
 
Hi Birdy !

In fact I expereineced very rough air. It was in 2006 when I flew a MT03 home over the alps. Weather briefing said: blue sky, 20kts. wind from the north in 4000 ft.

Yeah, my a..

When I got over the Alps I was shaken like in a 8.0-earth-quake and if I wouldn´t have had my belts fastened I would have left the open gyro multiple times.

Since I had no outlanding-spots for the entire crossing of the Alps (only harsh woody valleys and cliffs) for 50 km I was half-dying of fear. My AIS showed 130 km/h, my GPS up to 200 km/h. The VSI sometimes indicated 15m/s up or 15 m/s down depending on the side of the cliffs I had to fly (lee and luv).

At least the gyro made it (not me). I was staring unbelievingly on the instruments and just remembered the words of my flight instructor: if You dunno what to do: let the gyro fly by itself..... !

That´s my experience with really bad weather in a HTL-gyro.

Angelo
 
Hi All,

Just joined the forum.

Firstly Angelo - I think you are admirable. Your Magni M24 report is the best report I have read in many many years.

Secondly, I am an ex ATC and have tried to surround myself with a/c since Goodness knows when. The costs of getting a PPL and then doing "nothing" with it - has kept me away from many opportunities.

However - the time has come to buy my gyrocopter - Im was looking at the M22 but am TOTALLY BLOWN away with the M24. Unless they can make the GBA Hawk affordable to 'us'.... Its going to be the M24.

Chat soon.
 
Hi Gyromedic !

Welcome to the forum and first of all to all of You SA´s: happy new year !

I envy You all: You have such a solid gyro and Magni-community down there in a country with an exceptional landscape to fly over.

Once You got Your M24 please post as many photos as possible and give us all details on the M24 in everyday use.

Hope that I´ll be invited to a medical congress soon in SA to extend my stay and meet You guys there and maybe have some nice flights with You.

Angelo
 
Hello,
After reading how resistent some of the posters here are to "education through theory, experiments (testing) and facts" I do understand why it is the Eurpoeans and not the US that are taking Gyros to the next level.

Keep up the good work Greg !

Pilot of HTL ELA - A deathtrap by some definitions here.

Geir Ove
 
Can this nice Gyro fly without DOORS?

Yes it can, but you need to remove about 8 screws at the hinge point. I understand it does suffer a bit on performance with the doors off.

FYI: I am in Italy right now at the Magni factory. I am here to learn how to build, and how to organize kits for the US. Luca and Marco built a new M24 this week - just finished Friday evening. Two new M24s are going to the airfield on Saturday for test flights, and I will finally get to fly the M24 - after Angelo wetting our desire so well!

I have over 700 photos of the assembly - now the BIG job of creating the Assembly instructions for the kits.

Also, the Luca and Marco and the crew just completed the first M16 for the British Section T. It is a beauty - bright red and white. It and a new M22 are going to the airfield this weekend for test flights also.

I've worked with Vittorio, Paitro, Luca, Lisa, Sonia, Guisi, and many of the factory workers before. But, I am even more impressed with the precision and quality and WORK they are now accomplishing in their new facility. Luca and Paitro are amazing - multi tasking a dozen things at one time, from design, assembly, training, paperwork, etc. - and the schedule for days and evenings for weeks ahead! When they get going, just stay out of the way, it was hard to keep up with just taking pics!

And the best news of all for me. I am a BIG guy! I haven't flown it yet, but I fit in both seats really well.

Got to go now, I'm off to Vittorio's house for some real Italian home made Laysonia. Vittorio is actually at the Paris airshow this week, but Mrs. Magni and all the family will be there for the party. They work hard and play hard here!

- Thanks, Greg
 
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