Days of Yore

Russ

Junior Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2003
Messages
89
Location
Batesville, IN
Aircraft
Single seat Dominator
Total Flight Time
290 in gyros
I recently had dinner with Steve Graves. He reminisced about the good old days when over 100 gyros would attend a fly-in and most of them would be Bensens.

I observed at the Mentone Banquet that the gyroplane community is aging.

I used to fly at a small airport with a large skydiving operation. Every time I flew skydivers would come over with lots of questions. The hardest to answer was "how do I get started".

What is the pathway for a neophyte to get lessons and get up into the air?
 
Russ,

It was great meeting you at Mentone!

1st question is... where do you live?

If there is an instuctor near you that will make things easyer.

.
 
While I was in the PRA office, registering for the convention, I witnessed numerous people come in and inquire about rides. Ride vendors need to put up a sign and welcome these new folks.
 
While I was in the PRA office, registering for the convention, I witnessed numerous people come in and inquire about rides. Ride vendors need to put up a sign and welcome these new folks.

I agree.

It seemed to me the number of people wanting rides and the number of people giving them (CFI's and regular pilots) was way out of whack.

I was able to give only about 1/2 of the rides I promised to PRA convention volunteers.

Perhaps this should be carried to another thread... but...

Can anyone tell me if this is Legal and if it is a good idea?

Concept:

Post a white board near the flight line.

On the white board list the CFI's giving rides (intro lessons in CFI speak).
List the legal pilots with 2 place machines willing to give rides to PRA Volunteers.

Also, have some pilots that will give rides for a shared expense of _____ . (you can not accept more then the pro-rata $$ for a flight unless you are a Commercial pilot with a certified aircraft).

The rides with the shared expense would be for overflow from the CFI's only.

Example: Person X drove a bizzilon miles, leaves today, CFI intro lessons are booked. Solution, Ride with 'over flow' pilot.

The overflow pilots would hopefully, have a ground crew helper that would line up the flights, have the riders sign a waiver and make sure those wanting a ride is a member of the PRA.


What do you guys think?

Do-able or nightmare?

.
 
It used to be that rides/training were readily available and reasonably priced gyros were common. Ernie's Ultrawhite seems to fill the niche as an affordable entry level gyro but even then training still seems to be a huge obstacle.

I don't think the gyro community can attract young fliers unless this is addressed, and without young fliers I wonder if the gyro community can grow.

This is sad as to my way of thinking flying puts adventure and wonder back into life and gyro flying does that the best!
 
Tim I was thinking much the same thing. I like the way you think.

Also It was hard for me to tell who the instructors were and where they were parked. We need either one parking area and a sign showing me where they are and or give all the instructors a different color shirt so I can find them anywhere. That would have helped me find one standing around I had not meet yet.

Next year we need some marketing signs that direct them to what they are looking to buy.
PS:
I'll bet many didn't even know they could buy a ride from an instructor?

@Russ
I totally agree!!!
 
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It used to be that rides/training were readily available and reasonably priced gyros were common. Ernie's Ultrawhite seems to fill the niche as an affordable entry level gyro but even then training still seems to be a huge obstacle.

I don't think the gyro community can attract young fliers unless this is addressed, and without young fliers I wonder if the gyro community can grow.

This is sad as to my way of thinking flying puts adventure and wonder back into life and gyro flying does that the best!

Russ, here in our Chicago chapter 18 the only active pilots are Nick Costa, Adam Helwich, and me Matt Novotney. We are only in our mid twenties and have been flying for three years together. I wish I could find persons more our age to fly with and get in to the sport. If more persons like us joined the PRA then you would have members that are gonna be around for another 40-50 years. It does not help much that the PRA seems like a good ol' boys club sometimes that looks down on us younger guys like we are inferior and cannot live up to the pilots of the past. I have been a victim of my age at local club meetings and at national events alike. I shrug it off and just fly. I cannot believe that it is so difficult to get guys our age in to gyros because we are the adrenaline generation and flying gyros gives huge doses. After our instructor Chuck Roberg quit we lost a HUGE asset to our club. He was one of the best instructors that money could buy. I credit alot of my success as a pilot directly to him. Unfortunately without adequate training it is seemingly impossible to get in to the sport unless you have deep pockets and buy high dollar two place machines. I digress and agree with you that the PRA has a huge problem and I can only do so much in Chicagoland but I do invite as many people as I can out to our events to see what a gyro can do. If the PRA keeps the same faces that I saw at Mentones banquet, well frankly the PRA will be all but gone in the next 10-15 years. I do not mean that as a slap at peoples ages but truth be told the PRA is getting old and conventions are the best barometer for its health. I am afraid that I am gonna be the 'last gyro pilot' in 40 years and the PRA just a distant memory of a once small failed aviation community. I have a lot of faith in Rusty as president, but I do believe that persons like myself need to be included in the 'boys club' and our serious opinions included in further discussions. After all I am the future of the PRA and I don't want to be the last starfighter.
 
Matt:

I have to disagree with you on one point. I'm a member of Chapter 18 and I was a VERY active pilot until last January when I rolled over my gyro. And I hope to be active again soon.

Best regards,

Bob

P.S. Of course, I AM 54 years YOUNG!!!
 
Hi Matt!
Glad to have met you at Mentone!!!

Thanks Matt for your insight.

Were listening Matt any time you wish to share an Idea or even a gut feeling on how we can improve please PM me anytime!!!
 
Hi Matt,
It was great to meet you and to watch you fly. Keep up the good work!
 
Matt, great post.

And please do me a favor, make your posts easier to read by hitting the enter key twice every few sentences! Thanks, your death spiral partner, GyroRon :)
 
What IS Cheap these days ?

What IS Cheap these days ?

Guys,

Great post, as a owner of a battleship class 2 place I would love to give a few seriously interested parties an "intro" orientation flight at a fly in but, BUT.....

Have you checked out the cost of a 172 wet these days, even a 150 will set you back about what CFI's are asking. Which in my view is cheap at under 200 bucks an hour. And yes I am serious about that.

Gas is 4 bucks a gallon.

Scheduled to go down just in time for the "elections"....

Time is money.

Travel is money.

Unpaid time off from work is money.

Books, instructional materials, and of course

A GYRO

all costs $$$

If you are serious and smart and have any credit on any of your maxed out credit cards, either 1 pay them down or 2 start saving, or 3 pool the cash you have left and get going, get RATED.... and then buy a block of time and get with a CFI that you feel comfortable with.

Prices are only going to go higher and things are only going to cost more.

Stop belly aching about it. make it happen

As far as the LOW TURNOUT at Mentone, LOW PRA #'s, Dwindling #'s of gyro pilots... I can only suggest that a lack of money due to management decisions, due to a lack of creative thinking and imagination.

Cannot tell you how many fly ins I went to, NEVER GOT A RIDE... Until I booked some time with a CFI. And then that was a big let down.......

Madness is defined by: Doing the same thing over and over and over and expecting a different result.

I live in Eastern NC if anyone needs a flight

Savor the Journey.

Jonathan
 
Old Man Wisdom

Old Man Wisdom

Matt,

It was great meeting you at Mentone. What you said has value, but I want to share a bit of "old man" wisdom:

I was a violin appraiser and top musical instrument technician when I was your age, with certifications for most major types and brands. I thought one of my problems was my age, and believe most people wanted someone in their 60's handling instruments of great value. I even went as far as to let an older gent, whose job it was to sweep and straighten up the shop, talk to some customers and accept the jobs for repair or analysis. I felt it stopped the shocked look when I came down to inspect the instrument.

This ploy worked to a point. It worked for people who had no clue. Those who did understand the craft made short work of getting to the point of wanting to talk to "the person who would actually do the work." I'm a bit slow, so it took me a little while to realize this. When I stopped the practice, I recognized that the people who mattered and understood the process and complexity of the work were much happier and those who were uncomfortable were really that way because they had a very low understanding of music, instruments and business.

People will respect quality and talent if they have enough intellect or sincere interest in a particular enterprise. If age (too old or too young) comes into play, it is generally you doing it to yourself or people bringing age in who really have no clue and ultimately don't matter at all in the grand scheme of things.

Never underestimate what you can do and achieve if you put your mind to it. If someone puts age up as a roadblock, first be sure you aren't doing it to yourself, then walk politely around them. They are like children who know no better.

*JC*
 
Matt, all I can say is it was nice to meet you and the Guys, you younger guys are the future of PRA, and from what I see it will be in good hands.

I was really impressed watching you guys fly and talk about you gyros and flights.

and as said early I was impressed with your good judgement.

I just knew when I took my lesson and the whole gang came out to watch, that when i got back i would get ragged about my bad take off and or landings, instead I was met with encouragement to keep trying and to not beat my self up like I was doing.

I thank you guys for being as mature about this sport as ya'll are. you may be young in age, but you are mature in spirit.

as of today I have listed my Harley for sale, my plan is to get it sold, get the parts to complete my gyro and take at least another 2 or 3 hours, if I can not get landing down by then, I will sell the gyro and buy a Helicopter I have been looking at for awhile.

anyway I am now heading back down to my shop to do some work on my gyro.

P.S. if you ever was to run for a PRA officers Position you would have my Vote.
 
Funny I just wrote to my CFI Burgess about the pics from Mentone and asked why everyone seemed to be so old! I just figured that a lot of the crowd are FW pilots who converted and thus are more senior.

I have expressed my views many times about what I feel it would take to have gyros grow....in a nutshell a coordinated plan and then execution. Ostensibly that should be part of the PRA charter.... but my sense is, well lets just say I dont think it is and leave it at that.

Im 61 and have been flying for 4 years. Funny inside my head im as young as anyone out there. My back however thinks I am a lying fool.

Fiveboy
 
Who's old?



Barry (old fart) K
 
Russ, here in our Chicago chapter 18 the only active pilots are Nick Costa, Adam Helwich, and me Matt Novotney. We are only in our mid twenties and have been flying for three years together. I wish I could find persons more our age to fly with and get in to the sport. If more persons like us joined the PRA then you would have members that are gonna be around for another 40-50 years. It does not help much that the PRA seems like a good ol' boys club sometimes that looks down on us younger guys like we are inferior and cannot live up to the pilots of the past. I have been a victim of my age at local club meetings and at national events alike. I shrug it off and just fly. I cannot believe that it is so difficult to get guys our age in to gyros because we are the adrenaline generation and flying gyros gives huge doses. After our instructor Chuck Roberg quit we lost a HUGE asset to our club. He was one of the best instructors that money could buy. I credit alot of my success as a pilot directly to him. Unfortunately without adequate training it is seemingly impossible to get in to the sport unless you have deep pockets and buy high dollar two place machines. I digress and agree with you that the PRA has a huge problem and I can only do so much in Chicagoland but I do invite as many people as I can out to our events to see what a gyro can do. If the PRA keeps the same faces that I saw at Mentones banquet, well frankly the PRA will be all but gone in the next 10-15 years. I do not mean that as a slap at peoples ages but truth be told the PRA is getting old and conventions are the best barometer for its health. I am afraid that I am gonna be the 'last gyro pilot' in 40 years and the PRA just a distant memory of a once small failed aviation community. I have a lot of faith in Rusty as president, but I do believe that persons like myself need to be included in the 'boys club' and our serious opinions included in further discussions. After all I am the future of the PRA and I don't want to be the last starfighter.


Good post Matt! You sure can fly that Dominator too! (thanks for being the official Mentone alarm clock) LOL. Seriously though, I understand where you are coming from. Happy flyin'!
 
Hey Matt (and the other "young Guns")

Do take it too personally when the older chapter members seem a bit unnerved by your X-TREME flying.

I guess it's a bit like a veteran not wanting to talk about his combat experiences after losing a buddy on the battlefield.

Witnessing a death changes your outlook on our hobby and "pushing the limits" somewhat. For a long time, after witnessing a gyro fatality, every gyro you see flying extreme, brings back that haunting image of a death plunge.

And another thing, could you and Ron rename your spiral? Back in the mid to late seventies (when I was a young gun gyro pilot) there were a couple brothers that had a VW powered gyro. You could hardly keep the two of them on the ground. They refueled the gyro running after swapping the seat.

These two brothers were natural gyro pilots, two of the best I'd ever seen. At one fly-in, they introduced the "Death Spiral", A tightly wound, nose down spiral. it was not uncommon to see the pilot make a very abrupt pullout from the spiral. The gyro would pull out to a hover with the sound of loudly thumping blades. It was most impressive

At the PRA convention in Frederick, Oklahoma, one of the brothers was performing the spiral. It became a little too vertical, the blades flapped and the "death spiral" became a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I am sorry to bring this up in a public forum, especially since the surviving brother posts here. I'm sure he understands why I posted the story.

Matt, you and Ron are the product of good training and great skill. You both fly excellent aircraft. I recognize this, but please excuse us if us "old timers" have to occasionally "look away".
 
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The words 'old' 'bold' and 'there but for the grace...' spring to mind.
 
Matt: Watching you fly is like looking into the future of the PRA. You will be involved. We need many more like you....you are a gifted pilot and have the more maturity than many of us older pilots.

I was impressed how you bowed out of the landing and takeoff competitions not because you were afraid....but because you knew the conditions were there increasing the odds for an incident to happen.


The saying that there are "old pilots"...and "bold pilots"...but no "old and bold pilots", just may be proven wrong with your mature flying.


Keep up the great flying.


By the way, I am a Chapter 18 menmber, albeit more a supporting member. I almost was going to be active "at" our cookout today, but I could not get the R22 for this mission today.

Stan
 
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