bpearson
Senior Member
If everyone looked at all the facts from every view point then made up their own mind instead of just blindly believing what they have been told
If only we were allowed to make our own mind up Karl...if only!
If everyone looked at all the facts from every view point then made up their own mind instead of just blindly believing what they have been told
I am still interested in the input from PPG Doug or another police man. Even and especially if his viewpoint is different than mine. I am honestly interested in hearing a police officers take on the points I brought up.
1) Were you actually trained to work people out of their rights. I am almost 99% sure you were. Was more tactful or less blatant wording for "work people out of their rights" used?
2) Do YOU feel that this justified? By what? In what circumstances should they be allowed to be ignorant of their rights or intimidated enough to have doubts about their understanding of their rights and submit just in case?
I obviously don't think there is ever ANYTHING that justifies this behavior and that it is borderline criminal behaviour even if it ISN'T done in a malicious way, but I would love to hear a good viewpoint on why someone thinks I am wrong.
Doug, could you look me in the eye and tell me with a clear conscience you haven't been taught and personally used tactics or intentionally with-held information about a persons rights so that they willingly give them up.... simply to make your job easier? Even when you knew they didn't know their rights?
I am guessing you have. If you haven't then you are a good man. If you have then you are still most likely a good man at heart but are doing something that is flatly dishonest and worthy of some level of contempt.
Also.. I don't buy the "asking is OK" theory either. Police should KNOW citizens rights and respect them without fail unless there is a LEGAL reason to continue. Take me for instance.... I am the type to instantly bristle up (and bristle up is a very polite response to what I feel) when I perceive my rights have been violated. My "bristleing" would probably be taken as body language admitting my guilt to a cop that even asked and got declined to search my property.
Unless you have a warrant, don't even ask to search someones property.
To me the only good thing about being a cop is you are the only ones that can protect yourself off your own property without going to jail for it in most cases. Police usually, and in most cases take reports after the crime has been commited and thus have a poor record of stopping crimes against the public. Usually someone has to have been violated, or worse killed before police get involved in anything other than traffic stops. I have no use for them. Nothing I cant take care of myself. Especially since I would be the person having been vilated. All they ever did for me in my profession as a firefighter was get in the way where they didnt belong. There are some good ones and most have good intentions, but I dont need their help after the fact which is most often the case in police work. I say let us all carry. Since an armed sociaty is a polite society. Im just sayin.
HUMAN. Oposable thumb, sentient and rational - morality based. What a phucking concept!
By reacting the way you have, you have only perpetuated the idea of cops being civil rights violators or much worse.
I'm the eternal optimist !!!!!!
Don't let a small black dot, spoil your large white wall.
Yes you are right that my mind is 99% made up, but based on your responses below it seems that you have misconceptions on what it is made up on. For the most part, I fully agree with you. No one in their right mind would disagree that police work isn't hard and dangerous. I tried very hard multiple times to stress the fact that I don't think police officers with hold information about people rights maliciously.I honestly don't believe there is a point for me to respond as I feel your mind is 99% already made up. But, foolishly, here I go.
No expects you to do that.. and I think most reasonable people think TALKING about a crime and actively asking to search someones house (or car, or handbag etc) without a warrant in hand is in a whole different ball park. And the violation of rights that I perceive as occurring is that MOST people are VERY intimidated by the policeman even asking and most either flat out don't know their rights or know little enough that they doubt themselves enough to follow their instincts and say "You'll search anything of mine only if you have a warrant."Now, on the streets, I don't say, "Hello. I'm Officer _____. I would like to talk to you about ________ crime that has occured. But, before I do, lets discuss your rights under the US Constitution. Then, we'll briefly discusss any State Consitutional issues that may apply. Finally, I'll educate you on case law that also applies to our conversation. Once done, we can begin our talk about __________ crime."
... I do hate the fact that in most training they are TAUGHT to slyly do things to get you to willingly give up your rights...This training, in my mind, makes 99% of policemen un-trustable. ...
Asking to search someones house isn't. Even bringing it up unless you have proof that the house would need to be searched in my mind is dishonest and even borderline criminal.
PPDoug
Please do not think I dont like or need police because I do. Ive worked with police and I think they have a lousy job. As far as you being the target I think its you as the icon not the individual. I also think that your response was very rational and well put. Arguable, but sound. I just got snide with the wolf sheep sheep dog thing. They being instinct and we being (ostensibly and allegedly) the more highly evolved and compassionate...
Doug,
I'll assume your talking to me since you quoted me. er double quoted.
I watch cops to see the cops catch bad guys. You obviously assumed I was "rooting" for the criminals. I'm not.
I trust the police as much as I would trust any other person I don't know. That isn't wrong.
You've expanded the conversation into areas I won't get into. Car accidents and such have nothing to do with the civil rights we were discussing.
Protect and serve. I'm paying for it.
Doug, I feel your pain. I have read this thread a few times and been on the bubble with closing it or even deleting it. It's a shame that people come to a flying forum and spend most of their time reading and replying to threads about gun control and rants against the police..... instead of friendship and fellowship and sharing their love for flying as most would expect out of a gyroplane forum.
Ohhhh come on guys.
If you don't like the off topic section and don't want to discuss these topics then excersize your right not to click on the link.
If you feel the urge to open the thread and read the comments don't complain about it and try to get it shut down.
Excersize some self restraint and only read and respond to the threads you are happy to read.
please close this thread and the off-topic section.
That way we can all talk about flying gyroplanes.
PPG Doug,
I see you excluded the "Miranda Rights" as part of your explanation. Why would it pertain to a confession, but not a random house search?
As I understand it, if you forget to read someone the Miranda rights before you arrest them, any confession or evidence you find becasue of a confession cannot be used as evidence in court.
I believe that if someone pushed the whole searching of your house without probable cause and playing on thier ignorance in such a way as they thought they had no right to decline a search, that it would win in a Supreme Court ruling. Just like in the Supreme Court ruling in Miranda v. Arizona.