Glad Everything went well

Vendors and CFI's ok you say that what the fly-ins are for. then I ask this where the hell where you. I was very disappointed that the only open frame CFI there was Chris burgess, great guy btw. but to be honest I could not even afford a whole hour with him.

as pointed out earlyer I as offered a Ride with Ron,but chose to fly with Chris so I could log the time. chris was so booked that by the time he had a chance to fly me, the winds had shifted again and screwed up my flight. I did not want to fly with a cross wind.

now you tell me, here I am a paying customers cash in hand and he was booked solid, so how does Ron take money out of anyones pocket if they are booked solid?

Vendors, god what a joke that was, I only saw 3 Ernie selling his stuff, john snider selling an $80.00 dvd of flying the helicopter and a guy selling a toy gyro . heck there was only about 4 things in the fly market, I was hopeing to find a nice control stick grip or maybe find some used 27 foot blades at a good price. but there just was nothing there. so don't complain about loseing money if you are NOT there!

and I bet after a ride in Ron's gyro Ernie will probably get more sales out of it.

I really wanted to fly with Rusty Nance in his gyro, had even asked about getting up with him in s.c. sometime, but his reply was he has been busy and not done any training lately and then at mentone his gyro was not running right, so right there is why I then went with Chris.

Steve if you had been there I would have loved to have flown in the Black and like i said I was wanting to talk to ya in person about some things. but sadly you did not make it.

My first year to mentone and it was a flop. I enjoyed the people I met, but over all I can say there have been about as good a turn outs at ROC in the past.

I did have fun but not as much as I thought I would. I was expecting rows of used parts and rows of aircraft.

Now back to rates, anyone every think if ya lower the rates you might get alot more students and make it up in volume.

I for one know that I just can not afford $170.00 an hour and I don't care what ya say I know that a gyro is not costing that much to run as a helicopter, seems the CFI's are trying to charge helicopter rates for an aircraft that is more in line as a fixed wing to operate.

I bet if the rates where lower and ya did some simple advertiseing in the local papers you would have more students then you can handle.

then a student has to figure in travel expences and that jacks it up even more. and most CFI's will not travel to the students.

I have had several times that I have had more then one person that said they would pay for block time, but they don't have the extra to travel and pay for motel.

I bet if i took out and add in the local free trader papers saying ,are you intrested in flying in a gyroplane,I would be swamped with calls. same note why don't we see gyroplane demos at local airshows. the students are out there,just the CFI's are not seeking them out, and the average person that may have an intrest in gyros has no clue how to find and instructior, sure you say just look on line. but lets face it there are alot of people still not online.

so what my point is the work is work there, but it seems the CFI's are just waiting for the students to find them and not really seeking the student out.

why not start a sticky thread where the CFI's can post there rates, where they are located how to contact them. if they are willing to travel, or have a place to stay near by and what they fly and what they offer in the training.

all I am saying is it pays to advertise. and you HAVE TO BE AT THE EVENTS to get the customers.
 
Animal

I think you have raised some good points. I cannot speak for a CFI (and I dont see them speaking for themselves here either)... but I think people getting a taste is what it takes to get more converts. If they cannot get it from we practitioners....then it falls to the CFI`s. Its how I got started.... paid for a ride and that was that!

Fiveboy
 
@ Animal I don't know if you have gotten training in a helicopter lately
but I have and the going rate is between $260.00 and $280.00 for piston
and $450.00 to $600.00 for Turbine and that's the Facts Jack er'(Tim)
 
If we don't change the way we have done things in the past we are going to slowly continue dying!!

The complains would make much more sense if even one instructor who was there were the ones complaining they had no business because of all the free rides given?

But this is not the case because they were all overbooked! I could not get a lesson during at least the time I had free except from one instructor and we had to be back because he had them waiting in line.

Basically the reality I observed this year was we needed many more instructors just to handle the smaller crowd than last years as someone lost 3 to 4 hours of real instruction just with me this year.

Next year with all your help we will be worst off as we are going to grew PRA, our sport, and your clients!!!

From a businessman's point of view the reason our sports demographic is age 40+ is because of your hobby approach and strange idea's for only CFI allowed to share and promote our sport even when overbooked!

Look around instructors where are the young folks? They have little money but once given a ride they will save every cent to join flying

You have tried it your way. How about giving us a chance to use tried and true tested marketing techniques to bring the kids into the fun?

WE NEED ALL PRA MEMBERS TO BE PROMOTERS AND RIDE GIVERS NOT JUST AT FLY-INS BUT EVERYWHERE THEY FLY!!

Real life experiences: Our radio ads for pilots starting diminishing returns as all the local folks that THOUGHT they wanted to be pilots or even could fly a plane had already sign up! Had to change their desires to bait and switch them into understanding they too could fly. So advertised for Whale watching trips where we put one of the group in the pilot seat and gave them a slight pilot lesson while on the way to see the whales and back.
These folks didn't think they could fly a plane or even knew they wanted too. But soon discovered how easy it was and then would save every cent to now come learn how. Every year this kept bringing young folks from very walk of life into flying much more than trying to sell to people who knew they wanted to fly but didn't have the money.

This is what Ron does for you at no cost or time or money. Your thinking is holding us back and limiting the number of clients at the same time.

Don't wish to help that's fine. But at least let us try and help you save the sport. Your way we are dying a slow death in my opinion.
 
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Tim, Mentone attendance was certainly down this year (gas prices?)
At past Mentone conventions we have had over 100 aircraft registered, the vendor area nearly full, and IIRC we even maxxed out the camping (with hookups) spots.
Helicopters have all but abandon us (Homer Bell's fly-in?, The Cathy Fields fiasco?)
Last year the convention was much better attended, the year before, probably the worst in PRA history.
This would be a good time to post mortem the 2008 convention and determine what is right or wrong . I'll start a new thread.
 
Well OK

Well OK

Vendors and CFI's ok you say that what the fly-ins are for. then I ask this where the hell where you. I was very disappointed that the only open frame CFI there was Chris burgess, great guy btw. but to be honest I could not even afford a whole hour with him.

as pointed out earlyer I as offered a Ride with Ron,but chose to fly with Chris so I could log the time. chris was so booked that by the time he had a chance to fly me, the winds had shifted again and screwed up my flight. I did not want to fly with a cross wind.

now you tell me, here I am a paying customers cash in hand and he was booked solid, so how does Ron take money out of anyones pocket if they are booked solid?

Vendors, god what a joke that was, I only saw 3 Ernie selling his stuff, john snider selling an $80.00 dvd of flying the helicopter and a guy selling a toy gyro . heck there was only about 4 things in the fly market, I was hopeing to find a nice control stick grip or maybe find some used 27 foot blades at a good price. but there just was nothing there. so don't complain about loseing money if you are NOT there!

and I bet after a ride in Ron's gyro Ernie will probably get more sales out of it.

I really wanted to fly with Rusty Nance in his gyro, had even asked about getting up with him in s.c. sometime, but his reply was he has been busy and not done any training lately and then at mentone his gyro was not running right, so right there is why I then went with Chris.

Steve if you had been there I would have loved to have flown in the Black and like i said I was wanting to talk to ya in person about some things. but sadly you did not make it.

My first year to mentone and it was a flop. I enjoyed the people I met, but over all I can say there have been about as good a turn outs at ROC in the past.

I did have fun but not as much as I thought I would. I was expecting rows of used parts and rows of aircraft.

Now back to rates, anyone every think if ya lower the rates you might get alot more students and make it up in volume.

I for one know that I just can not afford $170.00 an hour and I don't care what ya say I know that a gyro is not costing that much to run as a helicopter, seems the CFI's are trying to charge helicopter rates for an aircraft that is more in line as a fixed wing to operate.

I bet if the rates where lower and ya did some simple advertiseing in the local papers you would have more students then you can handle.

then a student has to figure in travel expences and that jacks it up even more. and most CFI's will not travel to the students.

I have had several times that I have had more then one person that said they would pay for block time, but they don't have the extra to travel and pay for motel.

I bet if i took out and add in the local free trader papers saying ,are you intrested in flying in a gyroplane,I would be swamped with calls. same note why don't we see gyroplane demos at local airshows. the students are out there,just the CFI's are not seeking them out, and the average person that may have an intrest in gyros has no clue how to find and instructior, sure you say just look on line. but lets face it there are alot of people still not online.

so what my point is the work is work there, but it seems the CFI's are just waiting for the students to find them and not really seeking the student out.

why not start a sticky thread where the CFI's can post there rates, where they are located how to contact them. if they are willing to travel, or have a place to stay near by and what they fly and what they offer in the training.

all I am saying is it pays to advertise. and you HAVE TO BE AT THE EVENTS to get the customers.

Many things that you don't understand Animal....

I only charge what the customer will pay... Oh Yes.. ask anyone that has ever flown with me..

If you don't like the first hour, You don't owe me a thing.. Now thats NOT an open invitation to anyone. there is qualification the prospective student MUST have.

In the last 3 years I have replaced engines, the cost has ranged from 3K to 12 K over the work done.. The machine itself is NOT Cheap. Start at 25K and go up. Then the time and certificates etc.

Now keep adding and see if it's worth buying a gyro for ,, well lets say 13-15 K and go out to train yourself. Flap a set of blades, then start again from scratch.. No physical damage, just mental regret.

We can go on and on, andfthen put my entire life of 25 years and what I've spent to promote gyro's and TRYing to be safe with it. Then the FAA and TSA rules to comply with.

No Animal ,, I ain't CHEAP... However I look at this as the most important part is YOUR LIFE and Safety and how I instruct you.

I do this 24/7 Not just every now and then. Think about it.

All for 170.00 per hour before you buy a gyro or even start to spend ANY Real Money with this SO CALLED SPORT.

So for those that think I'm in it for the money..

I will stop all that I am doin with my two gyro's. Take them into a big field and have the biggest bon fire with them in the middle of it.
to assure that they are melted down to scrap aluminum
Before I cause hurt or injury to anyone.

170.00 per hour... I think your A$$ is worth more than that.

Or Do you think I'm serious ??
 
Was an instructor, been on the breadline, did it mostly because I loved it, building time and trying to live, but it was not an easy life for sure. Liability in this day and age a killer. Went to Bensen days charged $40 for a ride for my son to see if he would like it. He loved it. $40 I thought a steal and worth every cent. The guy who gave that ride I would go back to any day, and in fact we probably both will. Over here in UK it's over $200 an hour on an RAF. So far spent $3000 on training and just getting on to the single, it's about $160 in gas to get there and back, do not even want to even factor that in. Price is making it hard on the younger members, most gyro pilots I've seen are retirees. Gyroing perhaps used to be cheap but not any more, though still cheaper and more fun than most other ways of elevating one's butt. Promotion is going to help as it is a real hidden sport. How many gyro pilots in the US?? couple of thousand, maybe. How many F/W private pilots? I have to believe many many thousands more. It's had a bad rap but things are getting safer, but it does need promotion. John you are really enthused and are showing that there are ways to push it out into the mainstream, that will benefit us all, if done in the right way, good on you.
 
Hey I have never not seen these techniques make some measurable improvement even when using volunteers. (Which is much harder than the boss controlling results)
Do it the same I guarantee the same results. With marketing you try everything you can and simply see what sticks. Very simple things like placing two smaller ads written different ways trying to out compete yourself for which gets the most response and once you find the winner you still try and out compete it as well as start moving it around in different mag's etc.

We got a lot coming guys because almost nothing is being tried now.
 
Hi John

Glad to see ya make it home safely.

You are right we can only go up. The young people need to be targeted as potential gyro pilots. You saw how energetic the Chicago chapter was and they have a lot of young pilots. It is your best example for growing this sport.
 
Rotary and premix.

Rotary and premix.

I am sure Steve knew about this, as it is old news.

Even with the auto oil injection many would use either 2 stroke oil in the fuel and or even use a product called marvel mystery oil in the oil and fuel for the high rpm hard use applications. The apex seals are the weak point with the rotary.

Using a 13B will require rejetting the carb if used from the 12a.

I was always amazed at how much power steve got out of the 12A, I was shocked when I found out it was not a 13B.

Jonathan



I spoke with a few so called Rotary engine experts, they all agree that if you disable the engines auto lube oil injection system, you should use two stroke pre mix oil mixed with your gas and not normal engine oil. Apparently the normal engine oil will not properly mix with the gas if you try to mix it like 2 stroke oil will. This may have been part of the problems with some of the past engines you used.

Bigger engine must mean more power, which sounds like fun to me.:focus:
 
Hi Thom!!!!!!!!!!
I know Thom and his wife you know!!

One of the things I wish to copy is there club building and sharing toys.
I created a non-profit company called "Piper Partners" it was really a holding company for forming aircraft owners partnerships for folks who could only afford and really use 1/4 or less of an aircraft.
These partnership allowed us to sell more aircraft than any other and is the model I'd like to use for local chapters for folks to buy a fraction of a gyro kit and build it.
PS: You can use the same software I'm writing for us to schedule the toys on line.

This will make it much more affordable to young people as it did for aircraft sales.
We will try it in San Diego for sure using chapter 31's LLC.

PS:
Doug and other dealers should consider mini-fly-in's or static displays advertising a seminar on how you can own and fly a new gyro for $1,000.00 to $5,000.00 depending on the numbers of club members and gyros they build for the club. Then you just provide them with the legal partnership agreement and keep building the club, fun, trips, and sales at the same time. This works!!!! Also think cross marketing to add club members after few show up for the gyro seminars.
PS:
Also I will work on financing these so we can make it even less a monthly expense and save some money to learn to fly at the same time.
 
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My brother Bill and I went to Mentone Friday this year and expected to see far more gyros than were there. At around noon, it was exciting to see a swarm of them buzzing around and coming in for a landing. It was over so quickly though. But Ron and Matt really gave several good shows, which made me happy cause my brother had not seen what a gyro can do. He and I were both impressed. We both were also impressed with the Butterfly demo.

We have been fix-wingers (Bill built and flies a VariEze) and have gone to several EAA meets. One year we saw over thirty gyros there and four or five guys were giving $10 rides for about 5 minutes. We didn’t go because the line was so long, but it looked like it would be so much fun. I was hoping we could pay for a ride at Mentone but none was available that we could find. It was very disappointing. Thanks to some guys like Ron, some people did get to experience a gyro flight. Mentone of all places needs to have gyro rides available for those that seek that experience. I too was hoping for more vendors….I guess it is just too expensive to display there.
 
Ed that's our experience too. Very hard to find the instructors and rides or even discover if they were giving rides!

We can fix that next year with signs and special color Instructor shirts assuring they get no peace or free time at all.

PS:
If we market rides and instruction even 1/2 right you instructors will be looking for folks to handle the overflow rides!
 
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How about a PRA sign-up sheet to book rides and instruction prior to ever arriving and then new arrivals could use our wireless Net Tim hooked up for us or go to the office and schedule same?

This would give us a real idea of demand and I would have used it to make sure I got as much instruction as I wanted to pay for this trip too.

One central place to schedule all resources. Heck I'd even let you prepay on-line with a credit card?

Would you guys use it and what do you think?
 
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The only catch with offering signups before the event is dealing with the inevitable no-shows, you might have to get a deposit that's forfeited unless they cancel with appropriate notice to keep the CFI's from getting burned - but yeah, it's a good idea.
 
Good Idea

The only problem is the timing. Most instructors fly for 45 minutes and give ground school for the other 15. You pay for an hour. A 20 minute ride would turn into 30 minutes. You know educating the student/rider as to what is expected of him. Now a lot of this could be shortened if there is a sign off sheet that everyone must sign. Then we have our international student where there would need to be an interpreter available or something in their language. But all in all if it is organized right there could be a lot done. The vendors will want to sell to the prospects if you know what I mean.

But the idea does have credibility.
 
I had though of refunds for broken equipment or no show instructors. But the forfeited portion I like a lot for no show students or passengers. Good one!

But I would prefer to pay for the whole thing on a credit card as I had my wallet wall out at least 3 times and then just sitting out in a pile of stuff by Ron's gyro and it had enough cash to pay for a week of lessons as I had no idea what they cost and didn't care.

How about a compromise and if you per-paid the whole amount and cancel you get all but an instructor booking fee the credit card 3% cost for processing it fee PRA would have to pay for handling the transaction. The % we can change it's the basic idea I want to focus on as you are.

If you only put up a deposit that deposit will all be kept as the fee for same and perhaps would be more of a charge.
 
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Thom I know what you mean all right and was thinking the same thing as well as PRA can send the info to local chapters and have them send a personal invitation to join in the fun with the local Chapter! This could be very easy guys and a whole lot of fun.
 
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You guys in need of a woman come down here and I set you up nicely!
John (All IN) bring Steve with you he is in desperate need of a blow job . . .
He is not an A Hole but . . .his is very flexible! (calm down Jar head)
Guess who made a mess out of the gyro movement?
You did! (all of you)
FAA my old butt . . .
Heron
 
Herron; won't you be surprised when I show up?
I love visiting friends in foreign country especially!!
 
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