Breaking news Mentone gyro crash....

I'd like a sponsored membership for a year! Being somewhat new with gyro's, and never even had read the magazine, nor been to Mentone or any fly-in's, this membership would be much appreciated. So, C'mon, apologize!!! I want to be considered for sponsorship!
 
Poor Jonathan, like most conspiracy theorists, suffers from severe paranoia and ought to receive sympathy instead of derision.

Consider how nerve-racking it must be to imagine a clandestine agent behind every tree and even under his bed, spraying mind control chemicals.
 
The way it looks vs the way it is.

The way it looks vs the way it is.

Ron,

You have every right to your opinion. Your problem with me is that we butt heads and I am right most of the time. From my seat it looked a lot worse that it is. This is a good thing. Yes I jumped to conclusions that he was strictly a newbie with nothing more than a student certificate, from the loss of directional control to the loss of 2 aircraft, one could only think the worst.

However Yes he is legal if he is a fully rated pilot, and current..... to fly a single place experimental gyro. That in and of itself is a huge burden off of everyone's shoulders. I do not wish Matt any harm, he has already suffered enough. And for that I do sincerely apologize !:sorry:

What I do not understand is this pass card system. Obviously it is piss poor if it is supposed to do what it is supposed to do. If it is a "card" and safely tucked away in a wallet somewhere the airboss even with the best "psychic" powers is going to have a hard time seeing who signed what and when.

A ribbon would be a better way of doing things...... or a sticker or whatever could be plainly visible. Stuff still happens though. And like its been said before...... its not a problem until there is an incident.......

There are still other issues, and possible problems which I will not get into here. I hope Matt gets a full check with extra for all he has been through quick, fast and in a hurry.

Like you already stated, Mentone is a private airport with lots going on and no one person can police everything every moment of the day people do what they are going to do unless you have a cop at every exit..... The real question is since, yes I have not been there and it seems a gyro flying at any rate of speed was headed for the stands and the flight line stopped him. It is possible that the layout could be better but this is just one issue in a long list of things that needs to be addressed. Instead, true to form, shoot the messenger, thats the easy part for most of you.

Maybe Mcgowan saw what was going on the ground and felt safer in the air this time around.....?;)

Everyone fly safe and keep the rotor right side up.

Jonathan




Jonathan, I have lost my respect for you and your big mouth. I am personally fed up with it. I am tired of your rants and so called safety advise, when you seem to run your god dam mouth endlessly at things you have no first hand experience of.

You have never been to Mentone, yet you blab off about how unsafe it is to fly there, and how the airboss crew and safety officers don't give a rats ass.... And now your blabing your mouth about how this pilot wasn't legal to fly there, how the staff should have not allowed this guy to fly, etc....

Just as Matt said, this guy had every right in the world to fly there. He was rated. The only issue was the airboss staff did not know him and wanted a reccomendation from his CFI.... I had to go through the same thing, and you would too even though you have flown " 250 safe hours " ............

The only ball that was dropped was somehow the guy did end up in the air before that CFI signed the card. I believe full and well the pilot did not intentionally try to break any rules, it would have been very easy to be confused if you could or couldn't fly had anyone been in the same circumstances as this pilot. I also do not fault the airboss crew for " allowing " him to fly without the dot. There is alot going on between the air and the ground and it is overwhelming, to expect the airboss staff to see a small dime sized colored sticker placed randomly on a gyro or the pilot himself is pretty tough.

Why don't you pony up the 50 bucks and become a member again, and put aside the time to drive there and be a part of the airboss staff to insure safety to your standards. I know you won't do it.... but if your not willing to do more than run your mouth about what others should be doing, what your saying doesn't carry much weight IMHO.

You backed yourself into a corner in this thread and it is best to just say you jumped to conclusions and you were wrong and move on. If you ever did decide to go to Mentone ( or any of the other fly-ins ) and be a part of the safety team / airboss crew, I can assure you that your help would be gladly accepted. Until then have a little more respect for the efforts of all those that are there helping and trying to do what they can to have a safe and fun fly-in.
 
The pass card system is set up to insure someone who no one knows or can vouch for just shows up and goes out there and crashes into the crowd.

This accident the pilot made some simple mistakes and yes, he was headed for the crowd... not in the air but somewhat out of control on a bad touch and go landing.

Could things be done safer? Sure, just like anything, there is always ways to improve.

I was not shooting the messenger when I say you should re up your dues and offer to go next year to help make it a safer fly-in. Being critical of a fly-in you refuse to go to, does not go nearly the good as being there and being a solution. You understand what I am trying to say.
 
The message.

The message.

Ron,

I understand what you are saying, some, not all here understand my points. I never wish anyone harm. Just the opposite. I personally have suffered considerably in dealings with uninsured, under insured, drunk, drugged drivers, terrible drivers, ruthless insurance companies etc. We have so little time to do what we really want to do, we should be able to do it safely. I am not going to hash out old crap (you know what I have been through and what I have survived....).

My offense was trusting the name printed in the newpaper ! The FAA database only showed a man with a slightly different spelling out of California with a student certificate. His name is not a very common name.....but I took a chance that the information that was printed was correct. The fact that there is a pilot proficiency program at the fly in is commendable. Time with any CFI is worth more than you pay any day of the week. What better way to learn something new !

J
 
Yes I jumped to conclusions...

What I do not understand is this pass card system. Obviously it is piss poor if it is supposed to do what it is supposed to do. If it is a "card" and safely tucked away in a wallet somewhere the airboss even with the best "psychic" powers is going to have a hard time seeing who signed what and when.

A ribbon would be a better way of doing things...... or a sticker

Like you already stated, Mentone is a private airport with lots going on and no one person can police everything every moment of the day people do what they are going to do unless you have a cop at every exit..... Jonathan

It might be a good idea to understand a system before calling people clowns and declaring things 'piss poor', no?

The passcard system is explained in other threads and at every pilot briefing.

Since you have not taken the great effort to actually look this up before declaring it piss poor and suggesting we use a sticker system...

I will give some basics here.

A FEW points:

No other fly-in I have ever been too goes so far to project and create a safe environment as the PRA does at Mentone. I have been to over a hundred fly-ins and none of them have ever had a system past a basic sign-in sheet.

It is rumored that other Gyro fly-ins are going to adopt the PRA passcard system.

You are issued a passcard if you are a current and property rated FAA pilot in gyroplanes.

If you are a STUDENT you must have a CFI endorse (sponsor) you to get a passcard.

If you are an ULTRALIGHT gyro pilot you must also have a CFI endorse (sponsor) you to get a passcard.

If you are using the "experimental" loophole in the FAA rules to fly your single place gyro you must have a CFI endorse (sponsor) you to get a passcard.


Once you have a passcard you still CAN NOT FLY.

You must also attend one of the daily flight briefings BEFORE you can fly. To indicate you have had the daily briefing you are givin a color-coded sticker which you must display on your person or machine on the flight line.

At each pilot briefing the requirement for the sticker is described.

The next day you must attend THAT DAYS briefing to get a new sticker and fly that day.

Each pilot is asked to assist the AirBosses in making sure the flight line is safe and that the rules are being followed. While this does not put "a cop at every machine" it is supposed to help.

No system is or will ever be perfect. Every system will have room for improvement. Calling something 'piss poor' and calling the people that run it names certainly is not a productive way of suggesting improvements.

That is especally so when you have not even bothered to understand the system in the first place and you make recommendations to 'fix it' that have already been in place since day one.


.
 
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Ron,

Thank you for stating what most of us are thinking about Jonathan in your timeless straight-to-the point, and, I might add factual fashion.

Please, everyone, just put him on your ignore list. As you can see, he's never going to change his behavior. It must be so deeply ingrained in, it's like an addiction. The only one who can help an addict is the addict himself.

Personally, I agree with Mike Boyette. But, failing that step, just ignore him!
 
Outermarker- Looks like you get the one year PRA membership. I saw an apology, and now I have to pick someone wanting it. Since you were the first with your hand up,,you got it. Just call Jennifer at the PRA office....tell her to contact me for my credit card #.. Enjoy and hope to see you at the next convention. Stan
 
Stan...
Congrats on your re-election to the BOD.

I tip my hat to you on your gracious offer to purchase a membership...your quite the guy...especially since you do follow through on your word (unlike some).
My respect for you is as it always has been...high.
I was not able to attend this years event...badly as I wanted to...but I thank You Tim for elaborating on the events and procedures, I found your posts helpful in "Seeing" the bigger picture as to what all is entailed to put on an event like Mentone.

Next year I hope to be able to volunteer time and sweat to help out.

Jonathan I feel needs to reexamine his shoot first, think later approach to posting on this Forum. Ron nailed it....put up or shut up...be part of the solution...not just a creator of problems.

M-M
 
I will admit to have read this lengthy post from start to finish. I saw red many times, but continued on to see this through before I let loose, I even took Jonathon off ignore to read his posts. I do have something to share that I hope brings a positive side to this unfortunate situation. Foremost I want to thank those that tried to defuse the hostility, and more so to thank those who took the time to recognize the truth and share it. Lastly, I appreciate the kind words of recognition for Matt, I talked with Matt after the accident, and he was devastated, and nervous of the outcome. But he handled it with considerable maturity. I'd like to add that many pilot's offered their machine to Matt to fly, one of which shared in the prize money, as Matt flew his machine in the vertical climb. Ron congratulations on taking first place, both you and Matt are an inspiration.
 
I figure some egos got severly bruised, but unlike that recent MT-03 crash in Germany which took out two lives, nobody really got hurt. It really could have been seriously worse, and even the best pilots get into fatal situations (Steve Fossit, for one).
It was my first visit to Mentone, and I was a little surprised at how close everything was to the flight line without a taxi-way inbetween. Perhaps aircraft parking and spectator stands should be pushed back a little. We're watching experimental arial-missles piloted by experimental pilots. Something always seems to happen at fly-in's, if it's just a natural law.

As pilots go, there are few "Ron Awads", and a whole lot of "white knuckelers". Even with all of the proper credentials, plenty of space needs to be given to all aircraft. I saw a F/W tail-dragger come in with a wobbly main wheel and an uncontrolled tailwheel. The pilot didn't perform the best landing by a long shot, and I sure didn't want to be near that.

I'm relatively new to all of this and based at Wauchula where Bensen Days just seemed safer all around. I think the airbosses did a good job at Mentone with what they had to work with. Low-time, or inexperienced pilots have a mighty long runway to use, and don't need to try and land at the threshold or in front of everything and everyone. They warn about the "3 C's" for a reason.
 
Outermarker- Looks like you get the one year PRA membership. I saw an apology, and now I have to pick someone wanting it. Since you were the first with your hand up,,you got it. Just call Jennifer at the PRA office....tell her to contact me for my credit card #.. Enjoy and hope to see you at the next convention. Stan

Good on you Stan!!!
 
...If it is a "card" and safely tucked away in a wallet somewhere the airboss even with the best "psychic" powers is going to have a hard time seeing...

Bingo! We've found a job for Jonathan at Mentone!

On a more serious note, I see a couple of what I believe to be misconceptions here, and would appreciate the comments of a CFI or other closer to the FAR...

(1) The holder of a student certificate who travels from his home area and flies his machine at Mentone would run afoul not only of PRA policy, but would usually also violate the limitations to specific training airports normally entered in the student's logbook by his instructor. The CFI who signs him off at Mentone will generally be expected by the FAA to have also provided instruction in operations at that airport. (If you were signed off to solo with no limitations to a specific airport or airports, your instructor rolled the dice bigtime!)

(2) If you hold any powered category certificate of Private level or higher, you can fly an experimental rotorcraft as long as you don't carry passengers. But there's no restriction on flying a two-place with the second seat empty.

(3) A public use airport can be closed for an event, but it requires formal action by management, and the publication of a NOTAM listing specific hours in advance by the FAA. Do that, and your airboss can be given complete control of the facility and airspace. I don't think PRA normally does this, but straighten me out if I'm wrong.
 
I agree "ALL IN" I think we should vote for Stan Foster as the "PRA Man of the Year" And Carol DeGraw as "PRA Female of the year. Actually do we have such a thing?
 
Paul
I was told their was a Notam published for the event. I don't know what the exact verbiage was though. The FAA did inspect the field and did on-site visit during the event. and after the unfortunate accident.
 
I was not the only one !!!

I was not the only one !!!

A search of the FAA records does not show a Steven Vanderhoff from Missouri having any type of rating.

I don't want to get Chuck in trouble, I swear we never communicated, but I was not the only one to get caught by the issue. !!!

Post # 27 .....

My crystal ball was half right, he only has a FW rating, NO ROTORCRAFT / GYRO RATING !!!! :smokin:

So there .

Jonathan
 
I agree "ALL IN" I think we should vote for Stan Foster as the "PRA Man of the Year" And Carol DeGraw as "PRA Female of the year. Actually do we have such a thing?

I'll second that!
And if we don't have a PRA Female of the year award, what are we thinking?...
 
You got a gold star !

You got a gold star !

Yep, looks like you read the FAR's too ! Congratulations !!! seriously, this is a point I was eluding to when I thought Mr Vanderhoof was just student pilot.

As for the 2 place loop hole, I am not 100 % sure, I believe you need to have a full rating in cat & class if you are flying something with 2 seats. They tightened that up after sp rules came into effect.

Bingo! We've found a job for Jonathan at Mentone!

On a more serious note, I see a couple of what I believe to be misconceptions here, and would appreciate the comments of a CFI or other closer to the FAR...

(1) The holder of a student certificate who travels from his home area and flies his machine at Mentone would run afoul not only of PRA policy, but would usually also violate the limitations to specific training airports normally entered in the student's logbook by his instructor. The CFI who signs him off at Mentone will generally be expected by the FAA to have also provided instruction in operations at that airport. (If you were signed off to solo with no limitations to a specific airport or airports, your instructor rolled the dice bigtime!)

(2) If you hold any powered category certificate of Private level or higher, you can fly an experimental rotorcraft as long as you don't carry passengers. But there's no restriction on flying a two-place with the second seat empty.

(3) A public use airport can be closed for an event, but it requires formal action by management, and the publication of a NOTAM listing specific hours in advance by the FAA. Do that, and your airboss can be given complete control of the facility and airspace. I don't think PRA normally does this, but straighten me out if I'm wrong.
 
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