Rotary Wing Forum - Federal officials mandate consumers must buy at least four gallons of gasoline

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Federal officials mandate consumers must buy at least four gallons of gasoline

http://capwiz.com/amacycle/issues/alert/?alertid=61632086&queueid=[capwiz:queue_id]

Quote:

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency will require all consumers to buy at least four gallons of gasoline from certain gas pumps after the new E15 ethanol-gasoline blend is introduced into the market, the American Motorcyclist Association reports. The vast majority of motorcycles and all-terrain vehicles in use today are not designed to operate on E15 fuel.

The EPA revealed the requirement to the AMA in a letter dated Aug. 1, responding to AMA concerns that E15 -- a gasoline formulation that contains up to 15 percent ethanol by volume – could be put in motorcycle and ATV fuel tanks inadvertently when consumers use blender pumps. A blender pump dispenses different fuel blends through the same hose.

“With E15 gasoline, our members who make a concerted effort to fuel their motorcycles or ATVs with E10-or-less gasoline may be unknowingly refueling with residual fuel left in the hose,” Wayne Allard, AMA vice president for government relations, wrote in a June 20 letter to EPA Administrator Lisa Jackson.

“Unlike an automobile or SUV with a large fuel tank, the residual fuel left in a fueling hose could be detrimental to the performance of motorcycle or ATV engines due to the small size of their fuel tanks and the higher concentration of ethanol that would, therefore, be present in the fuel,” Allard wrote.

“In addition, the use of E15 will lower fuel efficiency and possibly cause premature engine failure,” he wrote. “Use of E15 fuel voids many manufacturer warranties. In off-road engines, the effects can even be dangerous for users.”

Byron Bunker of the EPA National Vehicle and Fuel Emissions Laboratory, responded to the AMA on behalf of Jackson.

“EPA requires that retail stations that own or operate blender pumps either dispense E15 from a dedicated hose and nozzle if able or, in the case of E15 and E10 being dispensed from the same hose, require that at least four gallons of fuel be purchased to prevent vehicles and engines with smaller fuel tanks from being exposed to gasoline-ethanol blended fuels containing greater than 10 volume percent ethanol,” Bunker wrote.

“Additionally, EPA is requiring that retail stations that offer E10 and E15 from the same hose and nozzle use additional labeling to inform consumers about the minimum purchase requirement,” Bunker wrote.

“Since motorcyclists and ATV users, as you suggest, have relatively small fuel tanks, they should pay careful attention to the labeling of blender pumps to ensure that an appropriate fuel is chosen, in this case E10 or E0,” he wrote.

The problem with the new EPA policy is that not all motorcycle and ATV gas tanks hold four or more gallons.

“Not only do we find it unacceptable for the EPA to mandate that our members buy minimum amounts of gas, but the EPA answer simply won’t work because of the sizes of many motorcycle and ATV gas tanks,” said Allard. “Furthermore, off-highway riders take containers of gas with them on their trips, and most times those containers are much smaller than four gallons.

“The EPA needs to come up with a better solution,” he said. “The EPA also needs to back an independent study to determine whether E15 is safe for motorcycle and ATV engines.”

The AMA has repeatedly expressed concerns to government officials and federal lawmakers about possible damage to motorcycle and ATV engines caused by the inadvertent use of E15 when the new fuel becomes widely available, and has asked that motorcycles and ATVs be part of any scientific study into the effects of E15.

In October 2010, the EPA approved the use of E15 in model year 2007 and newer light-duty vehicles (cars, light-duty trucks and medium-duty passenger vehicles). Then, in January 2011, the EPA added model year 2001-2006 light-duty vehicles to the approved list.

Riders should pay attention to this list because no motorcycles or ATVs are currently listed.

The AMA is concerned about E15 because it burns hotter than gasoline that contains a lesser amount of ethanol. In engines not designed to dissipate that extra heat, damage in the form of premature wear can result. Although this is a concern in all motorcycles, it's particularly problematic for air-cooled engines found in many motorcycles and ATVs. Moreover, use of E15 may even void the manufacturer warranty.

Since the approved list includes many light-duty vehicles in use today, refineries, distributors, and fueling stations may choose to offer primarily E15 gasoline because of this action by the EPA. The new EPA policy should concern all motorcyclists and off-highway enthusiasts because this can affect the availability of gasoline with less or no ethanol (E10 or E0).

You can send a prewritten email to your senators and representative immediately by following the "Take Action" option and entering your information. The AMA encourages riders to personalize their message by drawing on their own personal riding experiences.

Send a message to your federal lawmakers immediately, urging the EPA to come up with a better solution and to back an independent study to determine whether E15 is safe for motorcycle and ATV engines.

I wonder how this will effect the aviation side?

I sent to my Senator.

It looks like the decree is aimed only at those pumps that will dispense E10 and E15 through the same hose. The intent seems to be to dilute the residual E15 left in the hose. Assuming a 1 inch ID hose with a length of 10 feet, there would be about 1/3 gallon in the hose after a E15 customer uses it. Requiring the purchase of 4 gallons of E10 would reduce the concentration to around E11.3.

This whole thing may be intended to spare gas station operators from having to buy a whole new pump that delivers E15 separately from E10.

"effect the aviation side"?

Hello Jeff,
I see nothing in what I read that would have any impact on aviation. What do you mean by "I wonder how this will effect the aviation side"

Jason

Quote:

Originally Posted by JEFF TIPTON (Post 487785)

http://capwiz.com/amacycle/issues/alert/?alertid=61632086&queueid=[capwiz:queue_id]

I wonder how this will effect the aviation side?

In the general aviation side, no alcohol is allowed in normal category certificated aircraft.

Rotax engines only allow up to 10 percent (E10) gasoline at this time.

If 15 percent (E15) eventual becomes the normal fuel would it be a good fuel for the Rotax and other LSA type engines?

As more alcohol is used in the gasoline would this lead to higher fuel prices?

Would a shortage of alcohol cause a shortage of gasoline?

Would this newer fuel be more environmentally friendly?

Would higher alcohol content require extensive rework and redesign of the fuel systems to be compatible? Thinking particularly older vehicles.

Just some thoughts off the top of my head.

With the price of corn, there are a lot of ethanol plants closing their doors. If corn stays at $8/bu you soon will not see much ethanol mixed in, but if the price of gas goes up, then it is a different story.

I guess the first 4 gallons will get dumped on the ground by me.

My motorcycle is fuel injected, but wasn't designed for any ethanol though I'm running it now with E-10. I don't plan to put this bike in mothballs with E-15 being introduced. I use it a my light duty work vehicle at about 60mi to a gal, its a good tool. I Will not replace the motorcycle. I will fight the EPA as ethanol has no value other than a cash cow for farmers and the government. Its dirtier than straight gasoline and this I can prove.

The EPA needs to be trashed, along with several other Gov agencys....
The Ethanol thing has been discussed here before..so now they mandate MORE ethanol to further reduce gas mileage so they can get more tax revenue from selling more fuel...Crappy fuel at that. Plus it is proven that ethanol mixed with gasoline produces more harmfull byproducts than gasoline by itself.
Classic example of the Gov creating more problems and ridiculous regulation..
The whole ethanol scheme has never been anything more than "vote buying".
Vote the bastards out in Nov!

The original intent in using ethanol was to replace MTBE as an oxygenator. MTBE had been a required additive for those regions that did not meet EPA air pollution limits and it lessened the amount of pollution generated by gas engines.

The downside of MTBE was that is was very water soluble and it easily contaminated ground and surface waters when MTBE-laden gas (15% MTBE by mix) was accidentally spilled into these bodies. The lawsuits for cleanup and remediation are still pending in many areas.

Since ethanol is also an oxygenator, it was pushed into the mix. Now, this does not mean that Big Corn politics was not part of it. Ethanol in the US remains a loss for producers without huge Federal subsidies for each gallon produced but the prop-up allows for greater profits from a corn crop than could be realized from selling it for feedstock or human use.

The EPA knows the problems with ethanol but choose to turn a blind eye to it. The professional bureaucrats there know which way the wind is blowing on the WH/Congress level and act accordingly. E85, for example, is a horrible fuel but it is vehicles using it get their mileage ratings bumped up by as much as 50% when CAFE standards are applied.

Alcohol needs to be a much richer mixture as it contains oxygen, that is why motors tend to run hotter when it is used without re jetting.It also attracts water from the air will promote carb deposits corrosion everywhere in the fuel system and engine. Some types of plastic/rubber are dissolved also (If you have a fiberglass fuel tank made with polyester it will start dissolving , get in your carb and engine destroy them. There was as tremendous problem with some boats when they started selling e-10 from pumps at fuel docks without letting people know and quite a few boat engines were ruined.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickloon (Post 487927)

Some types of plastic/rubber are dissolved also

Gas tanks are a fairly obvious issue, but that also applies to lots of little seals, fittings, tubes, etc. in some certified aircraft fuel systems, that you might not even realize were there until something goes south.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabasco Kid (Post 487917)

The original intent in using ethanol was to replace MTBE as an oxygenator...

Please. Let's be honest. Ethanol was intended to be a farm subsidy program to buy votes.

How 'bout we just send farmers actual welfare checks to buy their votes, and quit screwing with everyone else's gasoline?

Hi Paul

You caught the flaw in ethanol, ethanol will never be a serious venture until they shift into a sugar crop like cane molasses, but then the "right people" might not get the bucks.

Tony

Yes ethanol has been used to replace MTBE. but here is the kicker. MTBE and Ethanol chemicals are almost the same They work the same way and are toxic the same way, except that ethanol can create a fungus that is cancer causing. As stated above it does damage to components. As an oxygenater, all fuel injection systems in vehicles have an O2 sensor which monitors oxygen, the sensor sees the extra oxygen as a lean run condition and increases the amount of fuel to compensate. So lower fuel milage from ethanol because more fuel is burned. I could go on and on. I think the only way to fix this is to fix the EPA