Rotary Wing Forum - Club Machine.

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Timchick has come up with a great idea.

How about club machines that are held by the various chapters/ gyro groups round the US.

They would be group owned, usable when your machine was grounded or by a visitor who happened to be in the area who was a subscriber.

Enough people chip in and it could be a really cheap way of having something to fly when you happened to be in the area...or your own machine just happened to be down for some work.

John I am sure would be able to work up some agreement that would be fair for all. As a non-profit group it could be cheap. Others I have recently seen figured in some healthy profit margins which is OK, but this would simply enable you to join in on 'your machine for the day'.

A lot of details to fine tune but guess plenty of time and folks to figure that out.

Reason I might be interested, my son and I have our Hornet sitting for most of the year in the back of a hanger. I would sell it for around cost plus a little and have it based somewhere in Fla. I could fly it when I came over, and it would now be available to be used by others who come down to the Sunshine State and need a ride. If I go over to the West Coast/Texas/Mid Continent there could well be something there for me to fly.

Have a check out with approved examiners, local senior flyers and agree to club/group waivers/ damages agreements and get airborne.

In theory it would be great. I know some pilots who have traveled to Bensen Days have been offered flights in various gyros by the owners but an offer like that is usually only given to a pilot who is well known, etc. If there was a club gyro a qualified pilot who travels to the flyin could take a few flights and pay some sort of user fee. Wauchula, Mentone, and El Mirage are the places where something like this would be great.

Wonderful idea....I wonder how the liability can be handled.

Member Paul Erb told me about groups can form LLC corporations and you add and delete names as needed. I hope he will chime in here and expand.

How about if an old gyrocopter was modified and mounted on a ground support.

It could be moved around to other locations.

PS. The means of modifying the ground simulator, so that it came close to representing an actual gyro, could be an interesting challenge for the technically and experimentally inspired.

Pascal has 1,000 hrs in helicopters yet he built this trainer to prepare for flying his electric coaxial with it's overhead stick etc.

http://www.unicopter.com/Temporary/PascalTrainer.jpg

Dave

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcarleto (Post 472782)

Wonderful idea....I wonder how the liability can be handled.

Shoot all the lawyers (This comment from a guy who has a son-in-law who practices law).

Lawsuits should be screened by a mixed panel before being allowed into the legal system to right a perceived wrong. And, it an initiator of a law suit loses, then they should be required to pay all defendant's costs to answer said lawsuit. Post a bond, put up large deposit, etc.

Trusting other gyro pilots

I have allowed access to other, known gyro pilots to fly my Sport Copter Lightning gyro. Eight others have flown it besides myself. This has been at prior ROTR and El Mirage events. One only has done ground effect flights and hops. No damage to said machine.

I plan on allowing other known gyro fliers the same access at ROTR in Utah this June, Mentone this August, and El Mirage in September.

My Hobbs meter shows some 120 hrs. so far. I've put about 95 of those hrs. on it.

I went to Mentone for the first time in 2003. I had 75 hours flying a group-owned gyro (Vancraft Rotor Lightning, 503 DC) before then. It'd have been more fun to FLY at a fly-in than standing around watching others enjoy the scenery from the air if I had a machine to levitate in.

Although it'll be very expensive to tow the gyro to Mentone (being 4,400 miles round trip, costing about $1,700 for fuel alone), I believe it'll be worth it. And, known-to-me gyro fliers will be allowed access to flying it.

Hopefully by Mentone, the Yamaha Genesis engine conversion will be completed by then...

Potential pilots would be required to sign a release not holding anyone liable for the use of the gyro. The pilot would do a preflight inspection prior to flying the gyro and sign-off saying he has found the aircraft to be airworthy.

Hi Guys!!!
Getting the Chapters interested in this has been a much tougher sell than I ever expected!

So how can we make this happen!!!
1) Each member of a chapter needs to go to their next meeting and make a proposal to buy and own a rotor-craft that they share with it's members and perhaps another chapter. The folks in the north don't fly much in the winter so think about you Chapter sharing it with another chapter that is in the south or west coast where they can fly it in the winter and you fly it in the summer and of course taking it too all the fly-ins that any one of your chapter members are going to.

2) Have your chapter BOD contact me and I will provide them with the:
a) Co-ownership contract = (I will customize it for your chapters needs)

b) Release of Liability, Waiver of Legal Rights and Assumption of Risk

c) How and what state to set your chapter up as an LLC = Limited Liability Corporation.

d) Liability Insurance

e) Set up a time for a conference cal. I will call you at your next meeting so I may answer any of the questions your members may have.

I feel it would be helpful to have a two-place trainer, as your 1st co-owned aircraft, allowing your chapter to fly an instructor out to you and use your aircraft for training providing the cheapest cost possible and still allowing your chapter to have an rotor-craft available at fly-ins and for training for your members too.

I will post Release of Liability, Waiver of Legal Rights and Assumption of Risk on the next post on this thread as soon as I change the name(s) from Aviomania to (CHAPTER NAME HERE).

If you want this to happen you must go to your chapter meeting and keep pushing for it.

PS:
Next will talk about marketing with local ads and flyers so you can really grow your chapter with co-ownerships.

Here is the Release of Liability, Waiver of Legal Rights and Assumption of Risk!

Quote:

Release of Liability, Waiver of Legal Rights and Assumption of Risk

In consideration of the use of Rotor-craft, Gyroplanes, Ultra lights, Gyro-gliders, or other related equipment (hereafter collectively call “the Equipment”) or services of (CHAPTER NAME HERE) or their facilities, ground school, instruction, premises and equipment of (CHAPTER NAME HERE) in connection with my participation in the sport of flying Rotor-craft, ground instruction, flight instruction, aero towing, motorized flight, ultra light soaring, and related activities (hereinafter collectively called “Flying Rotor-craft Activities”) I hereby understand and agree to this release of liability, waiver of legal rights and assumption of risk as follows:

1. I acknowledge that flying Rotor-craft is an action sport and recreational activity involving travel in three dimensions and that my participation in such activity may result in mishap and injury. I understand I may suffer physical injuries, including, but not limited to, broken limbs, paralysis or fatal injury while participating in the sport of flying Rotor-craft. (Initial here)_________

2. I hereby RELEASE AND DISCHARGE, (CHAPTER NAME HERE) and their respective officers, directors, agents, members, instructors, pilots, members, and owners of equipment and the land and premises used for Flying Rotor-craft Activities (hereinafter collectively referred to as “Released Parties”) from any and all liability, claims, demands or causes of action that I may hereafter have for injuries or damages arising out of my participation in Flying Rotor-craft Activities, including, but not limited to losses or damages CAUSED BY THE NEGLIGENCE OF THE RELEASED PARTIES. (Initial here)_________

3. I understand and acknowledge that Flying Rotor-craft Activities have inherent dangers that no amount of care, caution, instruction, or expertise can eliminate and I EXPRESSLY AND VOLUNTARILY ASSUME ALL RISK OF DEATH OR PERSONAL INJURY SUSTAINED WHILE PARTICIPTING IN FLYING ROTOR-CRAFT ACTIVITIES WHETHER OR NOT CAUSED BY THE NEGLIGENCE OF THE RELEASED PARTIES. (Initial here)_________

4. I further agree that I WILL NOT SUE OR MAKE A CLAIM against the Released Parties for damages or other losses sustained as a result of my participation in Flying Rotor-craft Activities. (Initial here)_________ I also agree to INDEMNIFY AND HOLD THE RELEASED PARTIES HARMLESS from all claims, judgments and costs, including attorneys’ fees incurred in connection with any action brought as a result of my participation in Flying Rotor-craft Activities. (Initial here)_________

5. I will take full responsibility for, and hold harmless all Released parties for any injury that I may suffer or inflict upon others or their property as a result of my engaging in Flying Rotor-craft Activities. (Initial here)_________

6. I agree that I will operate the Equipment in a reasonable and safe manner so as not to endanger the lives of persons or property of any individual and that course fees do not cover Equipment damage. (Initial here)_________

7. I have read and understand the above and acknowledge that the same constitutes a release of liability and a waiver of my legal rights and also acknowledgement of the assumption by me of all risks arising out of my engaging in Flying Rotor-craft Activities. (Initial here)_________

8. I further represent that this release of liability, waiver of legal rights and assumption of risk shall continue in force and effect for so long as I engage in Flying Rotor-craft Activities which are in any way connected to or with the Released Parties. (Initial here)_________

9. This Agreement shall be binding upon your heirs, next of kin, executors, agents, employees, officers, directors, successors, assigns, and personal representatives. (Initial here)_________

10. I hereby expressly recognize that this Release of Liability, Waiver of Legal Rights and Assumption of Risk is a contract pursuant to which I have released any and all claims against the Released Parties resulting from my participation in Flying Rotor-craft Activities, including any claims caused by the negligence of the Released parties. (Initial here)_________

11. I further represent that I have made a preflight inspection of the aircraft and you have found the aircraft to be in an airworthy condition. (Initial here)_________

12. I acknowledge and agree if any portion of this “Release of Liability, Waiver of Legal Rights and Assumption of Risk” is found to be unenforceable or invalid then the parties shall amend it to be still bound to the intent as much as possible under the law, and all other provisions shall remain valid and enforceable. All powers, rights, and remedies given to (CHAPTER NAME HERE) are cumulative, not exclusive, and are in addition to any other rights and remedies provided by law. The waiver by (CHAPTER NAME HERE) at any time of any of its rights under this “Release of Liability, Waiver of Legal Rights and Assumption of Risk” shall not be deemed a continuing waiver and shall not preclude the subsequent enforcement of any such right or any other right. (Initial here)_________

I, ________________________, HAVE READ THIS RELEASE OF LIABILITY, WAIVER OF LEGAL RIGHTS AND ASSUMPTION OF RISK, FULLY UNDERSTANDING ITS CONTENTS AND SIGN IT OF MY OWN FREE WILL FOR MY FAMILY, MY MINOR CHILDREN, MY HEIRS AND EXECUTORS AND MYSELF. I UNDERSTAND AND ACKNOWLEDGE THE RISKS AND LIABILITY FOR MYSELF AND MY FAMILY THIS ______ DAY OF __________________________ 20_____. (Initial here)_________

Pilot’s Signature_______________________________________ Date____________ Pilot’s # and Ratings________________________

Signature of Pilot’s parent or legal guardian if pilot under 18 years of age____________________________________________ Date__________

_______________________________________ ______________________________________ _____________________________________
Print Pilot’s Name (First, Middle Initial, Last) Phone #s

______________________________________ ______________________________________ _____________________________________
Address City, State, Zip e-mail

Emergency contacts__________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________
Names and Phone #s

Height________ Weight________ Age_______ DOB____________ Occupation________________________________________ ___________

Medical concerns__________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________

Flight experience to date______________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____

What happens if someone damages the ship & doesn't have the money to cover it (or crashes it & doesn't survive)?

Quote:

Originally Posted by brett s (Post 472909)

What happens if someone damages the ship & doesn't have the money to cover it (or crashes it & doesn't survive)?

Hi Brett

You would need a Comprehensive Insurance policy.
Insurance and other expenses are paid as part of the hourly usage fee's so only if it doesn't fly enough hours in a year will members be asked to pay any difference.

Of course the answer to flying more hours are going to more fly-ins. Signing up more members to your chapters as co-owners and it should paid all expenses by those who fly.

The way I handled the insurance to start out last time was to purchase a more expensive comprehensive policy with the LOWEST DEDUCTIBLE with the pilot signing an agreement to pay for any damage up to the deductible and or having them put a refundable deposit on their Credit Card to pay for the deductible.

I did not like this as a solution so I then formed an insurance pool where part of the club dues were paid into the insurance savings account. This could be accomplished by charging a little more specifically for the insurance pool and stop charging once you have reached your chapters deductible.

Once the pool savings account reached that deductible we raised the deductible passing the cheaper insurance rate unto our clients and customers.
Once the saving account was over 5K we stopped collecting dues for the insurance pool until a pilot had an accident and we had to use the funds.

There were only a few accidents mainly running into obstacles on the ground and if this had occurred while the saving account was less than the deductible we just raised. If that had happen then our company would have loaned the club the money and paid ourselves back 1st out the dues being paid in.

Here are a couple of articles from the co-ownerships agreement, you may have missed in the other post, that explains part of the insurance you could buy and what you can charge for usage.

Quote:

Article 16 – Life Insurance
It is the privilege of the co-owners to each apply for policies of life insurance upon the life of the other or others in the face amount of the value of the others interest in the aircraft, or $_____. It is thereby intended to enable one co-owner to buy out the entire interest of the other. Each co-owner/party to this Agreement consents to allow other co- owners to apply for such insurance on his/her life. The face value of the insurance on any co-owner may be changed from time to time to enable the entire interest of the insured co-owner to be so insured. If life insurance is placed on the life of any co-owner and is in force at the time of his death, the proceeds shall be used to enact the buy-out within 10 days after the receipt of the proceeds from the insurance company.

Article 17 – Operating Expenses
1) Operating Expenses shall include, but not be limited to, such items as periodic inspections, oil changes, replacement of tires, brakes, battery, hydraulic fluids, radios, airframe, engine, propeller and accessory repair and maintenance. These operating expenses shall be paid by the co-ownership from funds received from fees charged each co-owner for the use of the aircraft and from assessments to co-owners should it not be flown enough to have adequate funds.

2) Each co-owner will pay for wear-and-tear and reserves by the HOUR including $_____ per hour for insurance, $______ for engine reserve, $_____ for maintenance labor and parts reserve, $_____ for aircraft frame and suspension reserve, $_____ for the propeller reserve, $_____ for avionics maintenance reserve, $______ for new avionics and equipment accessories saving accounts, for a total of $_____ for each hour of _____ Meter time used by that co-owner.

3) The hourly wear-and-tear costs and reserves described in Article 17.2 is to assure that the co-owner who flies the most pays for most of the insurance, maintenance, expenses, equipment and engine reserves and is not revenue unless it is a certified aircraft and is only to pay for all operating expenses and for new equipment and continued operation of the aircraft and does not include the cost of fuel which is borne by each co-owner as the aircraft is utilized by him/her.

4) All funds received will be comingled into the aircraft’s bank account used to pay expenses without regard to the co-owner percentage of ownership or which co-owner actually paid it.

5) Each co-owner shall fill and service all systems at the end of each flight at his/her own expense. Co-owners returning to home base from nearby airports may leave up to _____ of an hour of flight time after the last fueling on the _____ Meter without any changes for topping fluids off. This will allow fueling at other nearby airports if fuel costs substantially less than at home base.

6) The co-ownership joint account shall initially provide a full supply of fuel, oil and other fluids at the outset of the acquisition. The cost of fuel and other operating fluids used solely for the purpose of maintenance and repairs shall be borne by the next co-owner to fly the aircraft unless deemed to be excessive. If excessive, the cost of operating the aircraft for maintenance purposes shall be borne by the common fund available for such purposes.

Article 18 – Fixed Expenses
A minimum of __________ dollars ($_____) shall be maintained in a fund, to be replenished monthly at the same percentage as each co-owner owns. Out of this fund all fixed expenses will be paid. The fixed expenses are defined as, but not limited to, tie-down at the home base, insurance, reserves for annual and other required inspections, licensing and taxes. A monthly fixed fee, exclusive of _____ Meter flight time, of $_____ shall be paid into the joint account as of the first of each month. The amount of the fixed fee may be adjusted from time to time by mutual consent.

The problem here though is finding hull insurance in the first place, much less at a rate that's not crazy.

A lot depend on the exact type of gyro I suppose, for some it's just not available at all from what I can see.

Hi Brett
I have found insurance... although it was so long ago I would have to look up the 3 companies that gave me a quotes.

So I believe it can be obtained however you are correct it does cost more for gyroplanes!!

However the cost is distributed to all the co-owners making it 1/10th as much as by yourself and Insurance should be paid for by flying the heck out of her... sort of like a hooker and you are now the pimp?

As the other BIG COMPLAINT that I too had to get over was others using my toys!!!

At least that is how I looked at rental aircraft and boats as not all pilots take the same care I do with my private toys.

This attitude of she is just a hooker helped me not mind if there was an extra scratch on her and I'd just touch her up and more folks at the party and playing with toys has always been more fun than keeping them unscratched and to myself.

Good deal if you've got insurance coverage lined up, could be a great way for guys that can't really afford their own machine (or don't want to commit that sort of money) to get started in the sport.