Locking down the stick

[automan1223]

Hypothetical question. You are learning to fly. The gyro for whatever reason starts to do something like porpose, or swing side to side due to your incorrect control inputs. Does locking down the stick a good thing to do ? I know there are a lot of variables here but what is a good piloting procedure when you do something that you recognize as a problem and want to stop.

My fear is if you try and chase it out you can make it worse and put the machine in an unrecoverable situation. Any thoughts ?

Jonathan
Oriental NC

[Caribean_gyro]

The gyro dont start to doi things on his own. You are doing it. Locking a control will just kill you. The vast majority of improper gyro flying is control first with REDUCE Power. Second Attitude Level!! Once you have regain control you resume flight.

Out of all of the gyro new comers I have seen the first thing they do is fight the aircraft. She just want to be treated softly aNd gently. ANd all of the ones who fought the aircarft are either out of the sport or dead.

Sorry to be hard on my coments but I see the gyro as a lady treat it well dont lock her up and you will enjoy the ride
Chuck P.

[Aussie_Paul]

Chuck P. Funny you should say that. I teach all my students that a gyro is a female and just loves to be treated gently and carressed around the sky. :D

In a truly pitch stable gyroplane a reduction in power and letting go of the stick is the best scenario. If you lock the stick in other than the correct airframe attitude to the horizon it will stay there. Letting the stick go allows the stability improvers like the gimbal head, h/stab, correct alignment of the CoM CoD and thrust line etc. to do what they were desined to do. That is, "return the gyroplane back to the original trimmed condition."

Aussie Paul.

[GyroRon]

the way I was taught and what I do if anything weird happens to me while flying the gyro is simple.... Pull power to idle and pull stick back to slow airspeed and stablize the gyro. Once the gyro is stable again then relax back pressure and add in power and fly out of it.

[StanFoster]

Ron is right on...also...a shallow turn with reduced power will stop a porpoise as well. I have only had one minor porpoise ...and that was back in 1985 in my Bensen. Just as I had read....I throttled back and gave it back stick..and all was well again. :D

[Aussie_Paul]

I should have included a reduction in power and let the stick go free. I will add that to the original post.

The more unstable the gyro the more important the reduction of power is. I would certainly not recomend power to idle though. The reasin being that you would get quite a bit of pitch roll and yaw happening at once.

Gyros are a bit like cars, "speed Kills" particularly in the less than truly stable ones. And that my friends is still the largest percentage of gyroplanes.

Aussie Paul.

[birdy]

Hmmmm..................... Reckon I should just lurk here,afterall,what would I know,I'm just a simple cow grower.

[Aussie_Paul]

Are you a simple guy who grows cows, or guy who grows simple cows!!!! LOL

Aussie Paul.

[birdy]

Simple bloke grow'n simple cows.

[automan1223]

Ok, I fess up here. I did 2 stupid things while training with maxie a while back and it is bothering me that 1, I did them in the first place and 2, I really did not know EXACTLY what I did to do them. First mistake was chasing a pitch and I started to porpose. This was while doing a crow hop down the runway and Maxie immediately recognized this and "locked down the stick" I dont know if he chased it out or what but he took control and recovered the gyro. It was also with the larger rotor, 30' and it was too much like being on a bungee cord, if you know what I mean.

My second stupid thing, and I believe I have done this 2x while training is to pull power a bit too much and joggle the stick which starts the machine a swinging a side to side. hairy is the word I would like to use because its like you cant land it like that and even if you do, like I did you land hard, bounce around things get real..........interesting........... Now what tweaks me is that I have read about this sway, side to side stuff, some said it was mast sway, others blamed the control inputs but the last oooopppss was with the shorter rotor which was easier to fly. Of course if you have altitude then you can do just what ron said and drop power pull back and the fly out of it.

No flying again today, blowing a gale yet again, broken prerotator 1st run out...


Jonathan

[Aussie_Paul]

Jonathon, most instructors know their machine that well all they have to do is put the stick where it has to be. They do not take 3 tries at it. In the unstable machines that I used to train in I could tell the porpoising student when to pull back 1/4" and it would stop. Timing is so critical in an unstable machine.

In a stable machine there is plenty of time for the student to catch up to the their over controlling.

One of the secrets of a good instructor is that they must know their machine so well that they can let the student take the machine to where the student thinks that they will lose control, but still have a safety margin to allow the instructor to easily recover, and not endanger anyone,particularly the instructor!!! LOL

Aussie Paul.

[automan1223]

Its one thing to be an instructor and know the machine, either the instructors own or in my case, my own gyro. I agree that any good instructor knows how to fly and fly very well.

Here's the big BUT. Every student is different. Every student will have different problems and may blind side the instructor with a stupid move. Case in point. Maxie was just about to give me a "atta boy" and then next thing we know I ROYALLY screwed up. It was late in the day, the light played tricks on me, I thought I was a bit higher that I was, I pulled power to quick somehow moved the stick to induce.......and here comes the swinging idiot. The only thing we could do because things happened so fast was that I pulled to half power and pancaked it in hard. Wayne said we pancaked it in from about 3' and dropped, blam. I danced on each wheel from side to side and hoped we did not topple over because rotor speed had decayed so quickly.

My point being no matter how good you are, there will always be that student, In this case me, that will introduce new problems at the most surprising moments. Thankfully Maxie is very skilled, and we were lucky. Learning my limmits is my most important thing.

[Aussie_Paul]

Jonathon, not to cast any aspertions on Maxi, but, he failed at that time. No disgrace as most instructors make mistakes in th early hours.

I certainly do not want to knock any instructor as we do not have enough instructors, and that is another discussion as to why. I will start a seperate thread for that topic, as I feel qualified to make some comments.

I have been fortunate enough to attain over 3000 hours of gyroplane training since 1989. You can imagine that I have had a variety of students.

Good luck with your training.

Aussie Paul. :D

[automan1223]

Its always easy to replay anything in your mind and say this or that should have been done,


Most important thing......the machine and the student was kept in one piece. To me thats a better than passing grade for any instructor (with my flying).


Some students, and some instructors, have not been so fortunate over the years.

Jonathan

[GyroRon]

Jonathan.... Maybe you could load it up and come out here to fly with me. We can take off and go to another larger airport to practice if you want. the wind has been blowing but not too bad. Yesterday I flew the Phantom 70 miles and back to another airport to visit some friends. Flew hands off the whole way there and back. It won't cost you anything but gas and food to come... I am off this Monday too.

[Caribean_gyro]

Johnatan

yes every students is diferrent and every students has his good and bad days. I always ask if the student left home and kiss his wife. If he had a previous argument and slept cold and in a corner. My friend he is going to be thinking with the wrond H!@# (you know what).

Late night party brain is still asking for more beer. etc. Dont be hard on your self , yes keep questioning your self what I have to do you imrpove. Dont rush things they will come.

Case example. This guy 58 years old a farmer , his hands were so big that he can grabe 1 quart can and touch his thumb. He grab that stick as if was a hammer. He make all kind of mistake we all most ditch the machine. After I gave hime some question and answer. he went back and in 20 miles of wind and manage to keep a steady course.. So every day, person, cfi and gyros are diferent.

My best advice that I use:
1: Before I do anything with the gyro I tell my self. Ok how this thing works? I go over preflight,take of and landing speed , pattern altitude etc. Mental rehersal and awarness. I dont like to get in the complacent mind setting. Is a bit stressful but have save my bud.
ChuckP.


Paul I will send you the stick analogy I use for the students. Is a bit adult rated.

[automan1223]

Just to clarify a few points here.

#1. My machine is newly built & working out the bugs, trim, adjustments etc takes a SPECIAL type of person.

That person happens to be Maxie Wildes. BFI/AFI down in Savannah Georgia.

I am an ASE MASTER technician since 1990 and recertified to the master level to this day. I have no problem putting something together and making it work. My flying skill set...At best I am a student pilot. If that.

There is no other person I would trust to work out my machine AND teach me how to fly it. No offense to anyone else out there but thats just the way I feel.

Maxie has been in this game since 1985. Where were you in 1985 ?

He has more experience building and flying gyros than any other instructor out there. Maxies collection of gyro odds and ends would put any museum to shame. His hangar is a gyro wonderland. There is no person on this planet that can claim 100% performance in anything, expecially flying.

I will be going back the end of this month to set up another rotor system and go for more instruction.

I have 100 % confidence in his abilities and take strong offense to anyone that says Maxie is not up to the task of straighting out my **** to fly right or is a marginal or unsafe instructor in any way shape or form.

Flying is a risky business and anyone, especially you Aussie Paul that think you can maintain 101% control over every and all situation especially with a student at the controls needs a wake up call because I got news for you. You are living in a fantasy world ! **** can happen in the blink of an eye. Expecially low and slow when landing.

As the student is learning the machine, the Instructor is learning the student.

Lastly I do not believe that any instructor out there that flys for any amount of time will ever NOT get his hands dirty or end a flight with his underwear clean ! Thats the truth !

Sincerly
Jonathan Weis
Oriental NC

[Aussie_Paul]

Jonathon, you said"**** can happen in the blink of an eye. Expecially low and slow when landing. As the student is learning the machine, the Instructor is learning the student.

Lastly I do not believe that any instructor out there that flys for any amount of time will ever NOT get his hands dirty or end a flight with his underwear clean ! Thats the truth !

Jonathon, I could not agree more. Instructing is more about people skills than piloting expertise.

Jonathon, in 1985 I had a couple of hundred gyro hours and had built 1.5 machines. I did not start instructing until 1989.

Actually, instructing is my first love. To take someone from the basics and make a safe gyro pilot out of them to fly their stable non vice gyro is what keeps me in this sport.

I also love abit of a hoon around and the odd trip, but instructing has its own special reward.

:) Aussie Paul.

[Brent_Brown]

Jonathan Why are you setting up another set of blades? you said the shorter blades worked out fine. I don't think it is the blades making you do what YOU do.

[automan1223]

The shorter blades worked out great but The hub bar was drilled crosswise and just running some loose numbers with chuck beaty the safety factor is not there. It holds ok but you know me.

RAF blades are pitch adjustable and I wont have to remake a hub bar.

Todd wants a set of 30's like I have and since my time is limmited and materials hard to find i just figured that saving a week of late nights and at least 2-300 in materials was the way to go with a new turn key set. thats all.

Jonathan