PRA= $50/yr ?

[CLS447]

Don, Thought I would start a new thread.

The current mag is hardly worth $20 a year. I remember when I could not wait to open that white envelope, now who cares !

BTW.... why the white envelope ? None of my other magazines use them.(ASC, EAA, Homebuilt rotorcraft) They usually show up in great shape.

50 bucks is getting a little too steep for me !

A good quarterly mag would be better !

I also agree with discounts for members at the gate( especially if you bought a machine with you ).

Wouldn't be much of a convention without flying members !

[GyroRon]

I second all of that Chris!!! I want to support the PRA and see it grow back to it's past glory, but without some tangible benifits - better magazine, services offered on the website, discounted rates for the convention, whatever else they could come up with - I will really have to think hard if it is worth 50 bucks next summer when I come up for renewal.

[CLS447]

BTW.... no offense meant towards those who work so hard & contribute articles to the magazine.

[Brent Drake]

Don, you ran the idea of dropping the magazine at the convention and everyone in attendance said they wanted the magazine to be published.

And I agree with them. The only way to get new members is let the msee a mag.
I'm going to purchase my 3rd subscription this year for a guy I met at a gas station and seems very interested in taking lessons. He even got some Sparrowhawk literature already. So I'm going to buy him his 1st membership in PRA. If others would do this we would not be in a financial strain. But the strain will relieve once the strip is paid for.
Right now I'm waiting for Pam or whoever to return my phone call to place my order.

[Dean_Dolph]

I hope I don't hurt anyone's feeling by pointing out that we are a bunch of cheap skates!

$50 a year amounts to less than 14 cents a day. People could afford that $50 and be healthier in the process if they dropped some of their goody buying at Micky D's and the local candy stop.

We spend thousands of dollars on a machine/training and hundreds in yearly flying/maintenance cost and then complain about paying $50 dues to an organization that is the only reason we have the privilege of flying home built rotorcraft.

If the PRA craters because of lack of member support then get ready to find another hobby. Oh yeah, get ready to eat the cost of your machine because there won't be a market.

Think it won't happen? Okay, roll the dice!

[dragonflyerthom]

Gloom and Doom.
First the PRA is going thru a total re organization. This is not a bad thing. Lots of organizations have to down size. PRA is because of the purchase of an airport. I have already stated my points so I will not state them again. Dean who is a member of the BoD is trying to run interference for the BoD. He is starting to ramble but that is O.K. Things will improve. You can count on that and I would say as much as has not been said that the shake up must be hugh. We will see something soon. I just hope it is what we want and can live with.

By the way Dean I'm not attacking you for doing what you think is best. Just stating my opinion like you said we all have one. They are like @$$HOhMY everyone has one and they all Stink.



Thom

[Dean_Dolph]

Thom, you are mistaken! I am not on the Bod. I am just one of the unpaid volunteers. We need more!

I'm certainly vocal and voice my opinions but can not and will not try to speak for the BoD.

But I will defend the organization when I feel it is needed. I've been part of the PRA for 39 years now and I've seen these ups and downs before but this is as far down as I have seen it. But this low point could be a blessing in disguise if it helps focus the membership on participating instead of setting back and waiting for someone to hand them something.

And the PRA is not going thru a total reorganization. There are new leaders in place and new BoD members but it is not going thru a reorganization. The structure is the same as it has been for many years.

As far as the doom and gloom, are you willing to chance owning a machine that you can't fly legally? Hey, If I'm wrong no problem, and I hope that is the case, but people need to think about what happens if I'm right.

[PW_Plack]

Many organizations start out small, and have a "newsletter." In the case of Chapter 73, it's a four- or six-page, (meaning two or three sheets of paper printed on both sides,) black-&-white, photocopied, stapled newsletter. It contains monthly meeting minutes, pictures of recent member flying or building activities, and sometimes a column on new initiatives.

As it grows, an organization may reach the point where it can afford a magazine, with its added production costs. These costs are more than offset by advertising revenue if the list of recipients looks valuable to companies in the industry, and the magazine actually becomes a profit center. (See EAA, AOPA. If they gave away 250,000 additional free copies of their magazines, their ad rates would go up and they'd make more money. AOPA provides a free magazine to students at Part-141 ground schools, because advertisers want to reach this fresh meat, and AOPA makes a profit on the free magazine.)

But, what happens when an organization shrinks? It's really hard to bite the bullet and go back to the stapled photocopies, but PRA is now spending $43 per member just to publish the magazine. From what I understand, it can actually cost more to continue publishing it if production quantities drop further.

PRA is caught in a pinch by three issues:

(1) It is a demographic fact that gyroplane enthusiasts exist in much smaller numbers, and in general, spend a small fraction of the money on their sport per capita that other recreational general aviation enthusiasts spend.

(2) Partly as a result of #1, there is not the thriving industry from which to draw ad revenue. Many of the big advertising spenders in other aviation publications, such as engine overhaulers, avionics manufacturers, etc., know that most of us will never use their products or services in gyroplanes.

(3) PRA has no professional ad sales team.

So, what are the options? I'd guess there are two possible ways out. Either the ever-shrinking numbers of bargain-basement gyroplane enthusiasts need to accept that their economics don't support a glossy, color magazine, or the industry grows somehow, both in numbers and in per-capita spending.

I personally hope for the latter. I hope those of us flying on the cheap become the low end of the spectrum, rather than the mainstream. I hope Groen Brothers starts selling lots of SparrowHawks to law enforcement and the Hawk IV to somebody, Dick and Ernie find investors for whatever their next step is with LFINO, and that Sport Copter's Super Sport competes successfully with fixed-wing sportplanes. I hope we break the cheapskate, broomstick-with-a-Mac stereotype, but continue to celebrate its history.

Until then, however, maybe PRA needs to live within its existing funds, cut back to photocopies and staples, and get back on its feet financially. If we have a B-&-W magazine now, what's the difference, except that the magazine has glossier paper?

[Chuck Roberg]

The current mag is hardly worth $20 a year. I remember when I could not wait to open that white envelope, now who cares !


Chris, Without the PRA and the exemption you would not be able to get your S/P rating. What would you fly then....

Yeah! I balked at the $50. But what's another ten bucks over a year. Besides I need the exemption more than you. :D :D :D

[dragonflyerthom]

I stand corrected. I respect that you have been a member for 39 years. This is a reorganization whether you think it is or not. No I am not willing to stand by and see my investment in my dream go up in smoke. Does any body know who is watching the hen house(FAA ). Seem there are more UL people than us. Why is that??? I am good at marketing. I help business start up every day and I keep my clients from going under each year they are in business. The problem there is no loyalty in the general public. When people see a business in trouble they hasten the demise by not supporting it. They take the sit back and see approach. I have suggested several ways to improve the services of the PRA and its chapters. You your self have said that it must be grass roots in order to succeed.

Thanks Dean.

Thom

I have PM Rusty about this thread and we will see what happens.

[donshoebridge]

Don, you ran the idea of dropping the magazine at the convention and everyone in attendance said they wanted the magazine to be published.

And I agree with them. The only way to get new members is let the msee a mag.
I'm going to purchase my 3rd subscription this year for a guy I met at a gas station and seems very interested in taking lessons. He even got some Sparrowhawk literature already. So I'm going to buy him his 1st membership in PRA. If others would do this we would not be in a financial strain. But the strain will relieve once the strip is paid for.
Right now I'm waiting for Pam or whoever to return my phone call to place my order.

Actually, I was not the person that posed the question at the general meeting. I only asked Mike McKirnan what he thought. And the reason I asked him is because he's a printer by trade so he has a little experience in the field of printing and magazines. His assesment on the quality of the magazine is that "...it looks like it was writen by a tenth grader." Sorry Mike.

As I understand it, membership numbers were still on the decline as of the convention. And as numbers go down, the price per magazine copy goes up a little. And if nothing is down for the positive, membership numbers are going to continue to go down. At some point, it's going to be more expensive to run one issue of the magazine than it is to pay off the airport, and that day is coming up fast. And when that day comes, I hope the PRA BOD pays off the airport first, before it tries to print another magazine. Because instead of worrying about making a monthly payment on the airport, the BOD can focus on getting membership numbers up with other encentives.

[Dean_Dolph]

..... Does any body know who is watching the hen house(FAA ).Yes, the PRA! I'm not sure who is serving as the FAA liaison at the moment but Greg G. and Gary Goldsberry have certainly been visible in the past. I say the liaison work has been visible but then it seems people don't think of this membership benefit...... Seem there are more UL people than us. Why is that??? I'll guess with you! If you recall the UL movement had its problems back in the 80's when the TV net works highlighted their fatality rate. But that turned out to be a good thing in the sense a lot of bad designs disappeared. But, if I have to guess, I would say exposure is the key. Also the ultralight (assuming we are talking FW) is more accepted among the GA community.

If we get off our collective butts and start presenting the homebuilt gyro/helicopter to the general public then I feel that the increased exposure will generate enough interest to solve our problems.

I suspect there is a magic number of members that has to be reached before the interest is self generating and we have a renewable energy source so to speak.

Just showing up at aviation events isn't going to cut it. That is a preaching to the choir type of situation. It is a small segment of the public to start with and the audience already has its aviation needs met. Oh sure there is the chance to convert a few FW owners but I would rather take my chances with people that don't know a gyro from what ever...... When people see a business in trouble they hasten the demise by not supporting it. They take the sit back and see approach. I have suggested several ways to improve the services of the PRA and its chapters. You your self have said that it must be grass roots in order to succeed.

Thom

Hey, GyroRon and company, you paying attention!

Thom, have you made the suggestions here or did you pass them to some one on the BoD?

The suggestions here are good for a couple of things. First there will always be someone to take issue with them which is entertaining for those that don't care one way or another. And two, the initial suggestion may not be a good one but when modified thru a discussion might have some merit. Synergy! In either case the suggestions need to be passed to the decision making body of the PRA, the BoD.

Yes, I have said this is a grassroots organization and until some one can convince me that it is something else I will stand by that statement.

[dragonflyerthom]

O.K. Dean We need to stop the bleeding.

Here goes. First Get a list of PRA members that are in your area. See if the PRA will give a list of all the members so that you (Chapters) can pull a list of everyone in your respective area. Next get a list of all member that have not renewed and send them an invitation to the next meeting or event that your chapter is putting on. See how many non renewals have deceased so as not to tramatize the spouses.
Talk PRA up and about the new what ever is coming or is in the wings.

Just a few suggestions

This is about as grass roots as we can get. This showing that they are wanted instead of just an address to ship a magazine to. Make the magazine online for some of the younger member that are computer literate. Put excerpts on the front of the site to entice the nonmembers to join.


Thom

[StanFoster]

I cant for the life of me understand the noise over a $10 increase in dues.

Here we are with this extraordinary flying hobby and crying over $10. The PRA is doing so much for us that we all need to chip in and support this great organiztion. If more would volunteer for stuff..then the increase in dues probably would not have been necessary.


Thom...At Mentone I volunteered to go and contact the non renewals and ask what was their main reason for not rejoining. The list was sent to me in some kind of computer form that I cant open. I e-mailed the gentleman back and havent heard anything yet. As soon as I do get that list...I will start calling each day until I get through that list.

We need as many volunteers for the PRA that we can get. It doesnt run itself.:)

Stan

[BUD ONEAL]

As a 23 year member of the pra,a life member for about six or 8 years,thanks to my great club,pra chpt.26 I will not balk at sending in the fifty dollars a year for a few years to help out. We are not in distress because of our airport, we are in distress because of a bunch of cheap skates who feel that the pra should do more for the pittance that they now charge. Untill the thinking of "what more can the pra do for me" bull s--t stops we will never over come what has ," happened" to the pra and what "we have done" to the pra with all of the petty bull s--t that has been posted on this site. One would think that some of us has a lot of growing up to get done,quickly before we lose the one thing that will keep us flying our machines.
I'll quit my rambling on because I know that it will fall on deaf ears.

[CLS447]

I would have to go check my collection of PRA magazines to find out how long I have been a member ! Pretty long !

All that I really ever asked for from my dues has been the best mag ever dedicated to rotorcraft !

I think with a little work the mag could be alot better!


I will probably rejoin, but I just needed to complain a bit !

I have alot of ideas that could be used in the mag.

Alot of it comes from this forum, like ....completions & problem solving.

Also custom gyros & manufacturers ideas.

One particular issue I recall was the one with the article about the then new Joe Souza redrive for the EA81.....I bought one !

In the same mag was an article about the new Wunderlick prerotator for the EA81.....It didn't work out so I did not get one. But that one really struck a note with me !

More tech articles....just like I like to see right here on the forum.

[groundhog]

I agree with the we need more members not less magaziine bunch.The 50 bucks is a bargain for MEMBERSHIP and you get a magazine too!!!!

[groundhog]

Let the guys that want discounts get points off if they sell a Membership or TEN

[groundhog]

Free membership to the guy who sells 100 memberships,Got a hundred freinds Ron?

[dragonflyerthom]

That is a good incentive to recruite new members. Say ten dollars towards next years membership. 5 new members and next year your membership is paid.


Good thought groundhog, you might be promoted to a flying pig yet. lol



Thom

[groundhog]

Thom, I am just trying to follow yours and stans awsome example.I had the same idea as Stan but he's DOING it .Chris renew NOW and submit an awsome article .Say maybe a chronicle of that fabulous bird of yours.

[dragonflyerthom]

Yea

They seem to think we are preaching to the choir around here. You are a good example of the type of member we should be looking for. We need doers not readers only.

Thanks


Thom

P.S. We can do anything if we will band togeather. It took the lack of members participation to get here, it will take members participation to get there. Good ideas Groundhog.

[Rene Genest]

For now, I'm already member of 2 shooting club in Quebec City which cost me $ 250.00 per year, and they do not send me any guns related magazine!! Since I'm PRA member ( only 3 years ), I already can tell that the information I got were priceless!! More than that, it is my contribution to an organisation which will be more likely to share vital informations with other and will represente all of us in north america to governement legislation. If they would'nt exist, we would just claim about it. I could pay $ 100.00 per year for my membership, they only have to ask me! Great life is not only matter of money and bargain but also matter of share with other who litterally spending themselve for our hobby. Stop asking what PRA can do for you and ask yourself what you can do for your PRA. All information we get in that magazine being verified and signed by an author, thoses informations are at least more reliable than what we can get, some time, in any discussion forum which are more likely to be some not that mutch reliable opinion.

[Aussie_Paul]

I must admit that I would increase the PRA membership fees. I have found that trying to please more people by being cheap has negative sides. People do not appreciate cheap or free services. Poeple take things much more seriously if they have a considerable investment.

I have found that being a bit dearer you end up with less members BUT those members are much more dedicated to the cause, and contribute more.

Put the price up to US$80 and put up with the griping community for a few weeks and then all will be over and we MAY lose a few members BUT will end up much better off. The members we loose are not the members we want. Most of them are free loaders not contributing to the sport other than their $40.

Having half the current membership who would be paying $80 would produce a more enthusiastic, less bitching membership. In other words, a more dedicated membership to the cause. Any new members joining would also be more dedicated if they have to pay $80.

If we only loose 10% of members who are disenchanted by the fee increase we are so far ahead. Compared to most memberships, $40 bucks is far to under priced.

Just my view.

Aussie Paul.:)

[StanFoster]

Hey guys/gals....Todd sent me the list in a format that my computer brain can download. Anyway...I have a list of around 1500 phone numbers of X-members. I volunteered to start calling and asking what is the main reason for non-renewal. Anyone want to volunteer as I seek to delegate out this task? I could resend the whole list that is broken down to individual states...to anyone that asks for it...if they make an effort to pick one state and contact as many as they can. I am working on Illinois.

I figure many renewals could come out of this if these people were explained to how the PRA is our main voice for our gyro community.

I may just post this in its own thread as there is a big need to contact as many as possible in the shortest amount of time.


Stan

[BUD ONEAL]

Stan,
Sign me up for the state of Alabama. Send me what you have to ,gyrbd@wmconnect.com
Thanks for getting the ball rolling

[Rene Genest]

I have some friends who did'nt renewal their membership, I think it is a kind of trend, a bad and wrong trend. If one say to other they wont renewal, it act as a pressure to others to do not renewal neither. He told me that now with internet all information is available for free. I told him that it is true for all good information as it is for all wrong information too! PRA is simply the best filter for the best and accurate information source available for our sport period!

You could not imagine the treamendous amount of wrong informations I got from peoples who I simply had no doubts about their credibility before... Many of thoses wrong informations would already killed me as it did to my instructor when he killed himself last autumn in his gyro! Since that, I had read articles in PRA which were talking about differences of centerline thrust and non centerline thrust with so clear explanations as other article i.e. from Doug Riley on how to find your C of G. I can say that PRA and Doug had already saved my life! If I only got thoses informations only one year earlier, I tell you that our CFI would'nt kill himself in his RAF2000 just because he decided to try to fly it without horizontal stab! But it is too late now!

Any one who is serious in that sport must avoid "cheap minding". Any rich people would tell that wealth is not matter of how you save but more on how you invest! And if you pay the price you will get a lot! Cheap minding is for cheap peoples with cheaps results and thoses peoples inspire to all certainly more shame than envious!

[route66]

Stan, I'll call Arizona, New Mexico and others if it will help! Just zip me the numbers.

[StanFoster]

Brandon: Thanks for stepping up as well. :) I will need your e-mail address. I cant send through the e-mail in the profile section here.


Stan

[Rene Genest]

Stan,

I'll call eastern Canada, send me the datas!

[PW_Plack]

Stan, not to be a wet blanket, but I'd make sure releasing these phone numbers to third parties doesn't violate whatever privacy policy was in effect when the list was built.

[StanFoster]

Paul: I guess my hands will be tied....



Stan

[PW_Plack]

Stan, never mind...I just read the other thread. If you got them through official sources, and are calling on an approved PRA mission, you'll be fine.

I'm in the middle of drafting a privacy policy tonight for another web initiative, and this thread just set off my alarm, that's all. :)

[Rene Genest]

For now, I think we can start by still promoting the PRA to all of our close relatives who have interest in gyro.

[Heron]

But I will defend the organization when I feel it is needed
Who are you defending the PRA from Sensei Dolph?

we are in distress because of a bunch of cheap skates who feel that the pra should do more for the pittance that they now charge.
Name one, here on this Forum, that doesn not want to see a better PRA Bud.
For everyone you name I will name another that is willing to give more money to see things go up . . .including me, jobless for 3 years.
It is time for you to open you eyes and shut your faulty speech, the cart got too big for the horses . . .we need more power!
Heron

[Dean_Dolph]

But I will defend the organization when I feel it is needed
Who are you defending the PRA from Sensei Dolph? Heron, I really don't have time to play games but if you can't see the negative posts about the PRA then I can't help you.

But, If I see something posted that is in error, off base or a personal opinion that makes the PRA look bad then who posts it is likely to get a response from me. Constructive criticism is okay but so much of the criticism cites problems without offering a solution. And then people get upset because their solutions aren't imlpemented. All solutions aren't good or implementable. The exception being mine, of course. :D :D

The volunteers of the PRA can only do so much so fast and if that isn't fast enough then other voluteers need to step up.

Most problem solutions can be implemented at the local level which usually means a chapter. However, if an individual thinks he/she can provide some help then just step up and let the leadership know what you would like to do. I don't think there is much danger of anyone going off half cocked and do something to the detriment of the PRA but just to make sure everyone is on the same page I would suggest passing promotional activities by the BoD.

[Rene Genest]

Heron,

"But I will defend the organization when I feel it is needed"

And I will, because PRA is also defending all of us, and if, as you say, you and your friends are willing to pay more for a better PRA as I am, then everything is fine. Now, for the bunch of cheap skates, they still exist everywhere anyway, we just can try to educate them. For the faulty speech, when, by a simple fact of ignorance, you will have to see your friend "well baked" under the wreckage of his gyro in flames and catch his widow to do not let her see it... then, just let me know...

[dragonflyerthom]

Stan

I would like to help with the state of Arkansas.


Thom

[gyroplanes]

Stan, I'll take any state or two or three if they're small!

[Heron]

I never seen anyone attacking the PRA, some dont like it, some want it to be better and some don't care either way. And then are the one that love it as it is.
Most of the complainners are doing something and most of the complaints are about lack of coordination and leadership, something to be considered (as it has been)
I talk a lot about it but I did more than most in 3 years, when I decided to stop the rejoing campaign and send my dues in I already had some money in there, going to fly-ins.
Just look what can be done, what is been done and what we want done . . .
When we stop this kind of posts, like there is a trench to fight for the PRA and get all in the open considering all that are involved our fellow PRA members each one trying its own particular way, then we will have more agreements and participation.
Again I only see people for gyros wherever I go, the adjustment has to come from the top, not from the bottom . . .we have what we need to grow.
Heron