interesting.

[birdy]

I'v pulled this from another thread coz it wasn't on topic, but is sumthn id like some constructive responce on.
Thanx.:)
[ The Ron I'm talkn to is Ron Award]

#51 Today, 01:16 PM
birdy
Platinum Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Alice Springs-central Oz.
Posts: 1,859



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would happen in fixed wing circles if you were talking to people who do crop dusting, or aerobatics.
Hmmmmm.................interesting you should say that Ron.

they like them this way, makes them more manuverable and Sporty feeling on the controls. Would you dissagree Ron?

My experience with gyros on the other hand, .........................
mmmmm.............. dose your experiance with gyros INCLUDE the gyro equilivant of crop dusting [ mustering] Ron?
I dout it.
It could be said then, that people who don't do the gyro equilivant of crop dusting wouldn't understand the whys n werefores of the stability issue that i constantly get shot for.
IOW Ron, AND everybody else, your arguing from an ignorant point of veiw, and thats why we always end up agree'n to dissagree.
Or is it different with gyros?
Or are the crop dusters and the like full o sh1t like me too?
According to Chuck E, EVERY aircraft is BASICALY the same.

[GyroRon]

Birdy, I can not see what you do that requires a unstable gyro. As manuverable as any gyro is, at least the single seaters I have flown, I can not see how flying low to the ground spotting cattle is any different than flying higher and chasing a bird. I have chased many birds and with my " Stable " gyro, and I have not seen any need for changes to my machine to make it better at chasing those birds.

If you feel you need a gyro that is considered unstable, then by all means go fly one like that. I don't know what you want the people on this forum to do with your threads and ideas and beliefs. Should we all remove our stabs and get jobs chasing cows? ;)

You should understand that what we refer to as stable in the gyro world and what a fixed wing pilot would consider stable in the airplane world are sort of two different things. For gyros it means in a nutshell, that in turbulence or events where the rotor is unloaded, the throttle does not have to be reduced. In a airplane, stable means the plane wants to return to straight and level flight if the controls are let go of.

In airplanes, some planes are more stable than others. There is planes like a Cessna 172 that will return to normal straight and level flight if the controls are released. These are called Positive Stability.

Then there is planes like the RV-4 I used to have which will not return to straight and level if the controls are let go of, but instead will stay on the path and speed of the last control input. this is called Neutral stability. Most sport aerobatic planes and Crop Dusters would fall in this category.

Then lastly there is planes that require constant attention from the pilot. Planes that if the controls are let go of, the plane may go into a turn or a dive or climb. Some of the serious competition Aerobatic planes are this way, and along with some of the poorly designed homebuilts and ultralights. This is called Negative stability. This is the type of stability that most closely relates to what we in the gyro community consider unstable when it comes to a gyro with a high thrustline and no horizontal stabilizer.

[NewsFlash]

birdy,
This is a question(s) I'd like to hear your point of view on, as well as other peoples' answer (hope I'm not hijacking your thread). When you first started flying gyros, what was the main thing you went by, did you visualize in your mind how everything worked (controls) or did you just go by feel? When I say feel I mean the feel of your airspeed, momentum, and the feedback in the stick.

I have seen the one video on youtube about your "mustering" moves. It was awesome to see you drag the tail down the runway with nothing else touching.

Far be it from me to say you need an H-stab, I've never seen a gyro in person, and I don't personally know anybody that has/flies one.

BTW, I come from a family of SCG's and I help my brother on occasion. We use four wheelers though, or on foot.

[birdy]

Well, that was easy.:)
You answered it in the first coupla lines Ron.
I can not see how flying low to the ground spotting cattle is any different than flying higher and chasing a bird.
The big difference is ' close proximity' Ron. Up there theres nuthn to hit but the bird, and it don't matter if you hit the bird, coz itll splatter, but the only thing that splatters down ere is you n ya gyro.
And who said i was 'spottn'?
Have you ever seen a 'cuttn horse' work?
Well, its basicaly the same thing, only the horse is only workn one critter, you can work thousands at once witha gyro:)
Your perception of 'chasen cows' couldnt be further from reality, it shows in your responces, and is why we'll never agree Ron, unless of course, you take a well earned holiday to central Oz and find out for yourself wot its all about.;)

I don't know what you want the people on this forum to do with your threads and ideas and beliefs. Should we all remove our stabs and get jobs chasing cows?
To be honest Ron, i recon your one of very few on this forum that STILL dont get it.
I'm NOT sugesting anyone do anythn. Wot im after is answers from knowlagable people with open minds to questions i have regarding manouverability, nuthn more.

You should understand that what we refer to as stable ...................world are sort of two different things.
Another interesting point Ron. Could you please explain that better?
In a airplane, stable means the plane wants to return to straight and level flight if the controls are let go of.
In't that wot a stable gyro's supposed to do????


did you visualize in your mind how everything worked (controls) or did you just go by feel? When I say feel I mean the feel of your airspeed, momentum, and the feedback in the stick.
Both News, and still do.
I like to know everythn bout wot ever machine im opperating [ thats where this forum has been real helpful]. If you know HOW sumthn works, you can make it work to its full potential, safly.

We use four wheelers though, or on foot.
Heh heh, Mate, these critters would eat 4wheelers, and you wouldnt see nuthn but dust if they saw you on foot:)

[Friendly]

Birdy,
I would think that mustering is what we call round ups or cattle drives, Would you tell us more about your profession. Maybe we have a different understanding of what you really do with that gyro.

[birdy]

Geez Mark, thats a big ask.
It could take pages to give even a symple answer to that.
But your right, it is just getn the cattle together [ from 20 to 2000 head] and taken um from their paddock[ from 50 to 500 sq miles] to yards where they are worked.
Its all very symple, but theres too many vairiables to be able to give any comprehensable explanation ere;)

[bones]

Geez Mark, thats a big ask.
It could take pages to give even a symple answer to that.
But your right, it is just getn the cattle together [ from 20 to 2000 head] and taken um from their paddock[ from 50 to 500 sq miles] to yards where they are worked.
Its all very symple, but theres too many vairiables to be able to give any comprehensable explanation ere;)
Yep it be the way alright ,,, thou bloody easier with good help thou ayy birdy :D :D :p :rolleyes:

[groundhog]

Birdy I for one gain great insight from the way you explore a concept,Ron is often the one with an informed answer.It's too bad he has to get riled to join the discourse.No he can't go to Oz you have to come to Mentone so just like on this forum we can all get together and go forward.

[Friendly]

Well that sounds like a good story for the the Discovery Channel. A Modern Day Cattle Drive with Gyros replacing the horses. I will have to email them and see if they want to discover the next Crocodile Bird Dee.

[groundhog]

Wait,pages so you say Birdy?.could you?would you find a way to submit an article with chopper and bones etc. to the magazine that PRA publishs either about mustering or gyros down under or about the trip you all took together to meet us at Mentone .Does mustering keep you employed year round?When things drop down to 20 below this January and Feburary I'll be listening for tales of dust and heat.Mark awsome idea but email them about gryo evolution in general over the last few years because most people really have no idea.

[C. Beaty]

It’s mostly all in your head, Birdy.

The limiting agility of a gyro is primarily determined by rotor characteristics:

(1) Rate of “G” load increase; determined by ratio of rotor inertia to lift.

(2) Maximum rotor precession rate; again determined by ratio of rotor momentum to lift.

If you must fly a square corner just above the ground (a pullup), you need the lightest rotor you can find with the widest chord. A high inertia, narrow chord rotor can’t accelerate quickly enough to save you, no matter which way the airframe flops.

The alignment of the airframe isn’t important with respect to agility as long as control travel is adequate.

There is, however, a perception of greater agility when you’re playing toss and catch with the airframe.

[Harry_S.]

Well that sounds like a good story for the the Discovery Channel. A Modern Day Cattle Drive with Gyros replacing the horses. I will have to email them and see if they want to discover the next Crocodile Bird Dee.


Fantastic idea.:eek:

I think they would buy it.:D


Cheers :)

[Aussie_Paul]

It’s mostly all in your head, Birdy.

The limiting agility of a gyro is primarily determined by rotor characteristics:

(1) Rate of “G” load increase; determined by ratio of rotor inertia to lift.

(2) Maximum rotor precession rate; again determined by ratio of rotor momentum to lift.

If you must fly a square corner just above the ground (a pullup), you need the lightest rotor you can find with the widest chord. A high inertia, narrow chord rotor can’t accelerate quickly enough to save you, no matter which way the airframe flops.

The alignment of the airframe isn’t important with respect to agility as long as control travel is adequate.

There is, however, a perception of greater agility when you’re playing toss and catch with the airframe.

Ok Chuck, I finally can see that now. Thanks.

Possibly the "toss and catch" gives you the impression that it must be more agile because of the amount of "work" done with the stick, because you have to use more control movements with the toss and catch routine.

Until the results can be proven with whatever equipment is required (like my stick fixed testing counting the cycles in a given time frame) it really is guessing or opinion.


Aussie Paul.:)

[dragonflyerthom]

Chuck I think you have hit on what Birdie is looking for. With all the question about the length of the rotor and H/S and the way he wants to fly. Lighter blades, Wider cord etc.

Good job Chuck



Thom

[dragonflyerthom]

Birdie

I thought this would be of interest to you it is a excerpt form the PRA on stability issues
One common argument or detractor to this stabilized gyro configuration is that the resulting gyroplane would no longer be as highly maneuverable and therefore not as desirable - the fun of flying a gyroplane would be negated! This is again another fixed-wing analogy that does not apply to gyroplanes. For fixed-wing airplanes, this is certainly the case - the more stable the aircraft, the less maneuverable! But, for a gyroplane, all efforts to stabilize the aircraft are focused on the airframe, not the lifting device (the rotor). The rotor is not "fixed" to the airframe. What makes a gyroplane so maneuverable is the ability of the pilot to move the rotor (in pitch and roll) independent of what the airframe does. The aircraft and airframe then follow the flight path determined by the rotor. A stabilized airframe simply follows this flight path aligned true to the relative wind. It is true that a stabilized airframe imparts stability to the whole aircraft through coupling of the airframe reactions into the rotor through cyclic action. But, the pilot, through the cyclic controls has complete ability as well to pitch and roll the rotor just as quickly and completely as would the pilot in an unstabilized airframe. But, those cyclic inputs by the pilot would be even more accurately "commanded" because that pilot's reference (the airframe) would itself be stabilized to the true flight path or maneuver that is occurring. The "sense" that the gyroplane is not as maneuverable likely comes from the fact that the airframe is indeed not swinging erratically around, as it would likely do if it were not stabilized to react properly to wind or g load or relative wind changes.)
I think this what you feel sometimes with the H/S


Thom

[C. Beaty]

It really isn’t a guessing game, Paul.

A square cornered pull-up requires a rotor RPM increase to accommodate the “G” load.

High inertia rotors won’t “catch” and the machine will fall through.

Low inertia rotors build RPM more quickly and permit “G” load to increase at a greater rate.

None of this has the slightest connection to which way the airframe flops around.

This is something I had observed a good many years ago when comparing the behavior of Hughes 269 rotor blades to Bensen rotor blades.

Hughes blades have a 7” chord, same as Bensen and the basic weight per foot is about the same. The primary difference was that Hughes blades had a 5 pound brass slug in each tip.

The Hughes blades would pull as many or more “Gs” than the Bensens but the rate at which they would accept the load was much slower.

BTW: Agility and maneuverability are two entirely different things. A battleship will perform the same maneuvers as a jet ski; go in circles, stop, backup, etc. The battleship is just as maneuverable as the jet ski but takes half an ocean for the same maneuvers a jet ski performs in a swimming pool. The word is agility.

[birdy]

you have to come to Mentone
Slim chance [ more like NO chance] of that ever happening Hogy;)
Not that im not interested tho, just not possible.
pages so you say Birdy?.could you?
No.

It’s mostly all in your head, Birdy.
I find it very interesting you said MOSTLY Chuck, as opposed to just ALL.
The limiting agility of a gyro is primarily determined by rotor characteristics:I know.
1 and 2, i understand wot your sayn.
If all i wanted to do was to fly square corners close to the ground Chuck, then i'd probably have light, wide chord blades.

There is, however, a perception
Sorry Chuck, i gota dissagree.
I thought it mite have been just a 'perception' thing too, but after flyn several different machines with stabs, i'v found that it aint perception.
[ there is a noticable difference even wen i put the old stab on the ferel]
You can only call it a 'perception' if you have nuthn to gauge it, or measure it by. I know its not perception, coz i'm useing the ground as a measuring reference.
Close, [ and i mean CLOSE] proximity gives you a precise indication, not a perception.

it really is guessing or opinion.
Wen you just miss, or just hit the ground PB, its not a gess or an oppinion.

Chuck I think you have hit on what Birdie is looking for
Again, that would be the answer IF thats all i had to do Thom.

But again, noone here knows wots involved in times of 'pressure', and noone here knows wot demands are put on the machine, so im wasten me time ere.....................aint i?

Maybe a real time mustern vid is the only way to explain.
Then again, maybe not.:(

[Chopper Reid]

Agility is what we [musters ] require Chuck.

[birdy]

A square cornered pull-up requires a rotor RPM increase to accommodate the “G” load.

High inertia rotors won’t “catch” and the machine will fall through.

Spoton Chuck.
But there is a technique that allows for the 'sluggishness' of heavy rotors. But i wont go into that.:)

[C. Beaty]

What we need to do, Birdy, is fit a recording G meter to your gyro with the sensor clamped to the mast.

That gets your head out of the mix and I’d bet you a truckload of beer that with or without a stab, the rate of “G” load increase would be the same.

[Ga6riel]

sort of an aside to this
the lightest machine you could put together (although robust)
hence a small diameter rotor, maybe down to about 20ft would have more agility
blade loading can be made up with a larger chord section

the mustering horse from birdy is a good analogy
quarter horses are shorter and lower and lighter than say Morgans
they turn fast and are nimble on their feet
but they look like a scaled down horse ... no different, they are not unstable horses

I see this CB's way, it would be better to think of it as controlling the rotor, not overcontrolling the airframe.

[birdy]

What we need to do, Birdy,
That would achive buggerall Chuck, coz most of the moves that are 'slipperier' without a stab, involve buggerall G force changes.
But, if you must, ill play the game.;)

[C. Beaty]

Birdy, every time I join your menagerie, I feel like a dog chasing its tail; almost but not quite fast enough to catch it.

Let’s reiterate some of the things you already know:

First Law of Motion: -A body at rest remains at rest, and a body in motion continues to move at constant speed along a straight line, unless the body is acted upon in either case by an unbalanced force.

Second Law of Motion: -An unbalanced force acting on a body causes the body to accelerate in the direction of the force, and the acceleration is directly proportional to the unbalanced force and inversely proportional to the mass of the body.

Third Law of Motion: -For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction, and the two are along the same straight line.

I assume that when herding cattle, you need extreme agility; the ability to stop and hang on the backside of the power curve, to fly sideways, to accelerate quickly and do minimum radius turns.

A rotor is round, having neither front nor back, left or right. It will go in whichever direction it is pushed or pulled.

There are 3 primary forces acting on a gyroplane; propeller thrust, rotor thrust and gravity.

You can’t do anything about gravity, a gyro weighs what it weighs.

You can, of course, vector rotor thrust about; the limit being set by the physical characteristics of the rotor.

You control propeller thrust with the hand that holds the throttle. If you need thrust change in a hurry, you need a low inertia propeller and an engine with a fat power curve.

How does the dangle angle of the airframe affect any of this?

I guess it’s time to admit there’s one small area that I’ve avoided. By playing toss and catch with the airframe, you can get a vertical component of propeller thrust; either upward or downward.

The vertical component of propeller thrust varies with the sine of the angle; with a 30-degree noseup angle, the component of propeller thrust acting upward is 50%.

But that’s a haphazard way of doing things; if your life or livelihood depends upon the propeller pushing in some direction other than the way you’re going, you’d be better off to learn to fly with a twist grip throttle and use the free hand to control an elevator*. The elevator must be centered in the propeller slipstream to have any control effectiveness at zero airspeed.

That way, you could choose your dangle angle at will or else lock the elevator in neutral when traveling from point A to point B.

*“Vectored thrust” is the latest rage in military jet fighters. You already have vectored thrust in a horizontal plane; with a controllable elevator, you could also have it in a vertical plane.

[Friendly]

Chuck ,
you may feel like you are chasing your tail with Birdy and he may feel like he is wasting his time but us less learned individuals are feeding at the hog trough.
I thought the high inertia blades were better for agility because they did not loose there thrust (rpm) as quick as the light blades. Like Dragon wings vs Sky Wheels.
So if Birdy is using an extruded Blade he could increase his agility performance with the much lighter blade such as Dragon Wings or he could reduce his length and add some cord length. Is this correct?

HOW do you determine what is the best length and cord length? I know there are so many variables but you manage to put complex things in a not so complex way.
Not to mention the dry with humor that seems to accompany your post.

[C. Beaty]

Mark, I assume you’ve played with a bicycle wheel.

Give it a spin and you can kind of sense the behavior of a rotor. The faster it spins, the more difficult it is to change its plane of rotation. The heavier the tire, the more it resists being tilted. With a lead tire, some muscle would be required to tilt it.

A rotor is the same way; a high inertia rotor can’t be tilted as fast as a low inertia rotor. When the Australian cow chasers yank, crank and bank, they need a rotor that follows stick command as quickly as possible.

More blade area generates more aerodynamic force to tilt the rotor.

There is a limit to blade area however. With proper pitch setting, the tip speed of the rotor varies inversely as the square root of blade area. Double the chord and the tip speed is only 70.7% as fast (1/square root of 2).

Top speed is limited to something in the range of 35% to 40% of tip speed by retreating blade stall.

Of course a wide chord blade can be sped up by flattening the pitch but then you’re throwing power away. It takes power to drag rotor airfoils through the air. Doubling the chord while keeping the tip speed constant would double your profile drag power.

Mother Nature doesn’t provide any free lunches.

But high inertia rotors do have their place, Mark. They give a smoother ride in bumpy air and not everyone needs an aerial pogo stick.

For most purposes, a disc loading of ~1.5 lb/ft² and a blade loading of ~35 lb/ft² is near optimum. Rotor tip speed is roughly equal to 66 x (square root of blade loading) in ft/sec.

[Aussie_Paul]

You are right Mark. Chuck might be getting frustrated and Birdy almost throwing a dummy spit, BUT I, as a lowly non scientific and non mathematical genius gyro person, am enjoying feeding at the hog trough.

Aussie Paul. :)

[groundhog]

Chuck,Yes please do hang in there with Birdie because at least he has the courage to ask and I too gain from your tireless patience.The concepts you explain answer many questions.We thank you.

[C. Beaty]

The first thing I noticed about Birdy is how accurate, deliberate and premeditated his misspelling happens to be. Every word he uses is accurately spelled phonetically with an Australian accent.

What sounds like “wot” to an Australian. As a Southerner, I’d spell it “whut” if trying to do phonetics. I don’t know how they pronounce “bob waare” (barbed wire) or even if they use it in Australia.

Like Carry Nation smashing whisky bottles with her hatchet, Birdy is a man on a mission out to reform the English language and in the process, strip away all BS.

[Chopper Reid]

The first thing I noticed about Birdy is how accurate, deliberate and premeditated his misspelling happens to be. Every word he uses is accurately spelled phonetically with an Australian accent.

What sounds like “wot” to an Australian. As a Southerner, I’d spell it “whut” if trying to do phonetics. I don’t know how they pronounce “bob waare” (barbed wire) or even if they use it in Australia.

Like Carry Nation smashing whisky bottles with her hatchet, Birdy is a man on a mission out to reform the English language and in the process, strip away all BS.



You're not just a pretty face Chuck !!! [and I mean that nicely]


There are thousands of miles of ' bob waare ' in Australia, the cattlemen use 3 wires in their fences, 2 barb and 1 plain usually with a star picket /steel post every 20 yards or there abouts. Its going to be intersting to see what you guys call star pickets:eek:

[Chopper Reid]

Birdy, every time I join your menagerie, I feel like a dog chasing its tail; almost but not quite fast enough to catch it.

That is truly well said !!


I assume that when herding cattle, you need extreme agility; the ability to stop and hang on the backside of the power curve, to fly sideways, to accelerate quickly and do minimum radius turns.
.

Not sure about Birdy but thats what I would like !!

[dragonflyerthom]

Brian We call them T-posts. The barbed wire is fastned with wire tys.


Thom

[Chopper Reid]

Thanks Thom!!

[Hognose]

I believe it was Churchill who said that Americans and Englishmen are one people, divided by a common language! I guess he was too busy saving the world to figure out where Canadians and Aussies fit in.

Good observations from Chuck on Birdy's spelling -- but as far as reforming English spelling, rotsa ruck as they say in Japan. English (well, Anglo-Saxon) was once a phonetic language, but it's been corrupted by French for lo, these 940 years. Our friend from Alice is trying to buck a truly high-inertia system there.

Cue Frank Sinatra singing, "My Way..."

Anybody else unable to get into the new/restored OZ forum? I can get it to send me an email saying click this link, and that link sends me on a loop through the whole process again. I think they're playing "how many times can we make a Yank chase his tail through this maze" over there.

Back to language, and gyros, it's interesting to note that we might have different words for 99 common objects, but we all know what a teeter bolt is. Technical stuff picks up much less national patois or slang.

cheers

-=K=-

[bones]

Anybody else unable to get into the new/restored OZ forum? I can get it to send me an email saying click this link, and that link sends me on a loop through the whole process again. I think they're playing "how many times can we make a Yank chase his tail through this maze" over there.

cheers

-=K=-
THAT IS NOT THE ASRA FORUM
Just a word of caution, i dont know what is gonna happen there, and i dont want to get into it, but the site is diffenately not the ASRA site, the owner of the site has " aquired" the pics and everything from the old ASRA site, very sad :o

[Friendly]

Bones
I asked this question before on another thread. I believe you told me that you had Extruded Blades or Alum Alloy. Is that the same thing in OZ. Do you have a light weight equivalent of the the Dragon Wing?
I ask Birdy for the specs on his Ferrel but he declined. I agree that in the hands of an expert the the gyros will perform the same maneuvers but the equipment does make a difference in the agility as Chuck has pointed out.
Someone of Birdys experience has probably worked out what really works well together and what does not.

I was shocked to hear Ron A mention he would like to build a hot rod gyro. I thought to Dominator had the reputation for being a hot gyro already.

The demo Gary G put on with the Bensen at Bensen Days looks like he would be a natural at mustering.

I don't see how the hubs bars do not break or crack at the strap attachment with the ridged extruded rotors when continually changing the plane of rotation.

[birdy]

I assume that when herding cattle, you need extreme agility;
Yup, the slipperier the better.
the ability to stop and hang on the backside of the power curve, to fly sideways, to accelerate quickly
These can all be done in any machine Chuck, even the wasa.
But its the 'do minimum radius turns.' that are much easier without a stab.
With power changes and stick movements synchronized correctly, these turns, wether virtical or horisontal, can be much tighter and easier [ and safer] if the machine had only a ONE WAY STAB.
Of course, turns this tight means you getn close to the 'stalln rate' of the blades, but like i said, even a reckless mustern opperater with steam comen outa his ears is unlikely to push it that hard.
Hell, i'v only done it once, and thats coz it was either a stall or the tree. [ and there was plenty o steam exitn me ears wen it happened.]

your life or livelihood depends upon the propeller pushing in some direction other than the way you’re going
:)
You sure you aint chased cows before Mr B.?;)
Your getn close now.
I know from me desert scooter raceing youth, that if the back wheel was 'outside' the turn, you could 'hit it' faster without fear of 'overshoot' than if it just followed the front one.
The gyro CAN be the same, only in 3D;)
Why have an elevater,?, wen it can be made to do it automaticaly.

as a lowly non scientific and non mathematical genius gyro person
So PB, we is ere for the same reason:)

The first thing I noticed about Birdy is how accurate, deliberate and premeditated his misspelling happens to be.
Sorry Chuck, if me spelln is ard to read, but i found that if i tryed t rite everythn propper, it takes me forever to type a coupla lines, coz i have to keep go'n back to the dictionary to check, and it only frustrated me more coz the bloody dictionary is misspelt anyway.
Nuthns rit the way its sounds:(
I know a coupla people ere who dont read my crap coz its not spelt rite.
Not that i give a s#@$.;)

I feel like a dog chasing its tail
I feel like a wreckn ball, me heads the ball n this computer is like ayrs rock.

I ask Birdy for the specs on his Ferrel but he declined.
???????
Single place open gyro, near CLT, 912s rotax, 26' extruded alloy blades [ AK, OZY made] and no stab..................................yet.
I'm no expert, thats why i need an overpowered slippery machine.
[ like a bloke who cant shoot streight needs a machine gun;)]

[bones]

Bones
I asked this question before on another thread. I believe you told me that you had Extruded Blades or Alum Alloy. Is that the same thing in OZ. Do you have a light weight equivalent of the the Dragon Wing?

No i fly on glass blades 27', with a 912 up it's ass, spose to be clt

[mceagle]

But its the 'do minimum radius turns.' that are much easier without a stab.
With power changes and stick movements synchronized correctly, these turns, wether virtical or horisontal, can be much tighter and easier [ and safer] if the machine had only a ONE WAY STAB.
I believe what Chuck was getting at is that it is the rotor that controls the rate of (or the ability) of the gyro to turn, and the direction that the airframe is pointing has nothing to do with it as long as you do not run out of control movment. Of course this is all assuming that everything else is equal - correct balance, all up weight, wind conditions, thrust, etc.
Incorrect balance could have some effect on turn rate if a nose cone or stabilizer is out of line with the relative airflow and creating drag. An open machine with no stab is less sensitive to minor balance issues.
A properly designed nose cone produces less drag than an open frame, and every pound less drag you have is a pound extra free thrust you have to perform manouvers.
your life or livelihood depends upon the propeller pushing in some direction other than the way you’re going
I know from me desert scooter raceing youth, that if the back wheel was 'outside' the turn, you could 'hit it' faster without fear of 'overshoot' than if it just followed the front one.
There have been sedan races on Ch 10 recently fashioned after the style of the movie "The Fast and the Furious - Toyko Drift" The racing is done on a small sealed circuit with many bends. They race on street tyres, usually two at a time and it is designed for spectator appeal. They throw the cars at every corner and hold about a 45 degree slide under ample power with smoke pouring off the back wheels. The interesting part is that the chase/camera car is driving along straight behind them and easily keeping up with them.
The point here is that the chase car has better tyres and has 100% grip all the time - it may have even been able to overtake the two flat out duelling cars.
It is the same with scooters. A formula one motorcycle can get around a corner faster without sliding than one that is sliding, assuming that it can get a grip. Rotors supply the "grip" on a gyro, and as long as they are hanging on, you should be able to turn just as tight in any equivalent gyro.

[C. Beaty]

I think what Birdy is doing, Tim, (and he’s sure to correct me if I’m wrong) is using propeller thrust to catch himself when the rotor doesn’t have enough bite to keep him from splattering in a pull-up.

Do a snap flare and the machine continues to sink through because the rotor can’t accelerate fast enough to build the required lift. By using airframe overshoot, he can angle the propeller thrust line to break his fall.

And there are a lot of other situations where a vertical component of propeller thrust can compensate for high inertia rotors.

It really is like dirt track auto racing. Not at all like formula 1 hard track racing where slipping and sliding leads to catastrophe.

[Ga6riel]

I think what Birdy is doing, Tim, (and he’s sure to correct me if I’m wrong) is using propeller thrust to catch himself when the rotor doesn’t have enough bite to keep him from splattering in a pull-up.

Do a snap flare and the machine continues to sink through because the rotor can’t accelerate fast enough to build the required lift. By using airframe overshoot, he can angle the propeller thrust line to break his fall.

And there are a lot of other situations where a vertical component of propeller thrust can compensate for high inertia rotors.

It really is like dirt track auto racing. Not at all like formula 1 hard track racing where slipping and sliding leads to catastrophe.

All that must happen at a fairly low airspeed
a wide surface of short chord perhaps just a few square feet, rather like that on a UH-1 mounted outside of the prop wake
would add stability at speed, and not interfere unduly with low speed manouvers

[Rotornut]

Paul Said, Until the results can be proven with whatever equipment is required (like my stick fixed testing counting the cycles in a given time frame) it really is guessing or opinion.


Who better to Ask and run your options by than Chuckles. MJ :)

sorry Chuck but your Knowledge is more than I can ever understand. about rotorcraft, shows your love of Gyro's and Pilots. We are Lucky you share this info with us all. Love Ya MJ

[birdy]

No need for any corrections Chuck, coz your on the money:)

Tim, i said DESERT SCOOTER RACEING, theres not alota black traction out there;)

And as far as i know, my rotors have only let go once, thats wen they made that funny 'slappn' sound;)

A peddal trun is in effect, the same as a drift on DIRT. You can be garanteed last place ina dirt speedway race if you never broke traction ona rear wheel drive.

[C. Beaty]

One of the side issues to the type of flying necessary for mustering is that it gets the hand wringers disadvantaged by a fixed wing upbringing into a high state of agitation.

Almost any fixed wing screwup short of structural failure is recoverable with sufficient altitude.

The opposite is true for gyros. Screwups at high altitude often result in a fatal plunge.

A low and slow crash in a gyro produces a cloud of dust but rarely broken bones.

[dragonflyerthom]

Birdie how much did your gyro shake after you had your rotor strike? Did it settle or did you go down fast?

Thanks

Thom

[mceagle]

using propeller thrust to catch himself when the rotor doesn’t have enough bite to keep him from splattering in a pull-up.
Do a snap flare and the machine continues to sink through because the rotor can’t accelerate fast enough to build the required lift. By using airframe overshoot, he can angle the propeller thrust line to break his fall.
I wonder which gyro would snap turn quicker - the one banking with full rotor speed or the one where the rotors are slipping through the air and some of the propeller thrust vector is being used to compensate.
A peddal trun is in effect, the same as a drift on DIRT. You can be garanteed last place ina dirt speedway race if you never broke traction ona rear wheel drive..This is a hard one to relate. In a big dirt speedway meeting, as the track becomes harder during the final, the angle of slide becomes less and the lap times become quicker. A dirt scooter simply cannot get 100% grip in loose soil. Having said that, the best power-sliders in dirt bikes are the big singles. They get some manner of "grip" between each of the power strokes (fire every 1 to 3 feet) which enables the slide to be controlled. A high reving four cylinder is a hopeless slider and is near impossible to control accurately unless it has three or more wheels for stability.
A bit off topic I guess.