To Anyone Attending Benson Days - 2006

[MrsDocFinn]

Just to make sure everyone knows who MrsDocFinn is, I am Carol Finnegan, the wife of Bill Finnegan.

The reason I am posting this message pertains to an issue I am having with my insurance policies we had on Bill. It appears that the insurance company is denying payment of the policy based on the fact that Bill had to be a fair paying passenger. We all know that it is a common practice that whenever you ride with someone, you give them some token, whether it be cash, breakfast, lunch, dinner, etc.

There are two things that would help me in settling the policy:

1. A statement from as many people as possible that it is common practice that you pay the pilot in some way. The more statements I get, the better.

2. A statement that you personally heard or saw Bill pay Terry, could have even just been hearing him say he was paying for his breakfast to cover the flight, seeing him hand Terry some cash, or any other method of payment.

I would like to thank everyone in advace for any information you can provde me.

Thanks
Carol Finnegan

[PW_Plack]

Carol,

We all feel deep sympathy for your loss, which makes what I'm about to say awkward, but I feel it's important to say it.

FAR 91.319 (a)(2) of the Federal Aviation Regulations covering the operation of aircraft with experimental airworthiness certificates prohibits carrying passengers or cargo for compensation.

It is legal for passengers to reimburse the pilot for a portion of expenses, and this pilot was eligible to provide paid flight instruction in the aircraft, but either may fall short of the legal definition of "fare".

Terry's survivors may be wrestling with insurance issues, too, and accusing him of violating his operating limitations could be a serious matter in the handling of his own family's case. Any statement that such violations are "common practice" jeopardizes all current and future building and flying of experimental aircraft. Let's be careful with our terminology, and accurate with our recollections.

[Timchick]

Is there anything lower than insurance companies?

[MrsDocFinn]

What I am asking for pertains to the statement you made about "It is legal for passengers to reimburse the pilot for a portion of the expenses". I know this is probably stretching it but I have been told that sometihng for gas expesnes, breakfast, etc. might cover me within one specific clause that is in the policy.

[Rando]

Maybe Doug Riley can help sort this out?

[gyroplanes]

I'll almost guarantee that Terry was operating under the PRA's 5209 exemption that allows commercial flight instruction in his gyroplane.
Any of Terry's students step forward with a confirmation?

[Jazzenjohn]

I Hope The Insurance company decides to be as good at paying the benefits as they are in collecting the premiums. Doug Riley or David Holmes may be the best people for advice here in the forum.

[scott heger]

Mrs. Finnegan, first of all, I am very sorry when I heard about the loss of your husband. As all pilots, I take the responsibility of taking passengers airbourne very seriously. This accident has left many of us stunned. I can only hope that your family pulls together and helps each other in this difficult time.

Wikipedia says fare :
A fare is the fee paid by a traveller allowing him or her to make use of a public transport system: rail, bus, taxi, etc. In the case of air transport, the term airfare is often used.

The fare paid is a contribution to the operational costs of the transport system involved, either partial (as is frequently the case with publicly supported systems) or total. Many bus and rail systems in the United States recover only around one-third of their operational costs from fares (the farebox recovery ratio).

The rules regarding how and when fares are to be paid and for how long they remain valid are many and varied. Rail and bus systems usually require the payment of fares on or before boarding. In the case of taxis and other vehicles for hire, payment is normally made at the end of the ride.

Some systems allow fare transfers: that is to say that a single payment permits travel within a particular geographical zone or time period. Such an arrangement is helpful for people who need to transfer from one route to another in order to reach their destination. Sometimes transfers are valid in one direction only, requiring a new fare to be paid for the return trip.

In the United Kingdom certain Train Operating Companies, such as South West Trains and Southern, have Revenue Protection Inspectors who can issue penalty fares to passengers who travel without a valid ticket. This is currently a minimum of £20 or twice the single fare for the journey made.

Sample fares
Minneapolis: 6-hour fare (Bus/Light Rail): $3.00

New York City: New York City Subways and Buses: $2.00, flat fare covers the entire system

See also
Category:Fare collection systems
Public transport#Ticket systems
Ticket#Admission
Toll road
Toll bridge

This entry is from Wikipedia, the leading user-contributed encyclopedia. It may not have been reviewed by professional editors (see full disclaimer)


American Airline Fare
United Airlines
Delta Airlines com
Northwest Airlines First Class
Air Fare

As far as what is the legal definition of a "fare"; that should be spelled out in the policy.I read the definition both ways , both in favor, and against your benefit. It is a rare occurance that my passengers don't at least volunteer to offer to pay for a portion of the cost of flight they take without me asking. I never take money, but sometimes let the passengers buy me lunch or a soda(very expensive soda at $900/hr for a jet helicopter ride). May I sugggest that if the insurance company ultimately refuses to pay, this is one of the instances to have a lawyer help you out in this matter with advice.


Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH N79LR

[MrsDocFinn]

Scott,

Thanks so much for the info. I already have a lawyer looking into it and will forward your message to him. You comments about taking a soda, etc. will be helpful.

Also, I just want everyone to know that I talked to Linda Eiland last night and she is aware of what is happeing. I also told her that no matter what happens I would never cause her family any problems resulting from anything done to win the claim on the insurance policy. I would forfeit the policy before causing them any harm at all. Bill had always told me that it is an understanding that as a experimental flyer you know the risks involved and you never hold anyone else responsible for accidents that might occur while in flight, landing, etc. I will guarantee you that my family is not the type family that ignores good friendships and relationships. Terry and Linda in my mind were friends and you never, ever hurt a friend.

A statment was made above by JazzenJohn about them collecting their premiums on time but they sure find a way to not pay out on the policy. It isn't even about the money at this point because my livlyhood is not dependong on getting the money from the policy. It is now a matter of principle. What really distrubs me is that when we took the policy out I explained that it was an experimental plane for leisure and they told me we would definitely be covered. They lied and I am trying to prove a point. I know I don't really need all this frustraiton but I am very tired of big corporations taking advantage of the little guy.

Thanks
Carol

[JRB549]

I Heard Bill offer Terry the cost of the meal that morning for the flight and seen the exchange of money, I believe it was at the Pilots Breifing at 0800 if my memory serves my right, and I'm not alone

[MrsDocFinn]

J. R.

Would you mind forwarding me you phone number to the following e-mail address so that I can call you this evening? If that is OK with you, please forward it to finne7173@watlow.com.

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond and share this information with me. I look forward to talking to you, if you agree.

[Heron]

When I started flying I checked with my agent and I was covered, now that I need another policy down here it has become a pre-existing condition, hard to find coverage.
In that accident whatever fee or fare charged could never be collected for obvious reasons, I wonder what a lawyer will do about it.
I never got the situation covered by documents, it should be a good practice to have it in writing before flying.
The INsurance Company will fight before paying. Lawsuits-R-Us in full swing.
Will PRA and Sunstate get involved? Is there any coverage included in the Fly-in policy?
thanks
Heron

[Brent Drake]

Now, you got me wondering if my insurance polices would actually pay. I think we all need to do some investigating.

[enewbold]

1. A statement from as many people as possible that it is common practice that you pay the pilot in some way. The more statements I get, the better. Expense sharing in aviation is, indeed, a quite common practice. Not sure if this helps or hinders your particular case, but I found the following information in the regs:

In regard to privileges and limitations regarding sharing of expenses, a private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of the operating expenses of a flight with passengers, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures (e.g., landing fees, tie-down fees, etc.), or rental fees.

QUESTION: What exception, if any, permits a private pilot to act as pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers who pay for the flight?

ANSWER: If a donation is made to a charitable organization for the flight. A private pilot may act as pilot in command of an airplane used in a passenger-carrying airlift sponsored by a charitable organization for which passengers make donations to the organization, provided the following requirements are met: the local FSDO is notified at least 7 days before the flight, the flight is conducted from an adequate public airport, the pilot has logged at least 200 hr., no acrobatic or formation flights are performed, the 100-hr. inspection of the airplane requirement is complied with, and the flight is day-VFR.

[MrsDocFinn]

enewbold,

Thanks for all the feedback. I have forwarded this on to the lawyer. I'm sure any information is helpful.

Just so everyone knows the insurance policy is an Accidental Death & Disbursement policy. If it were a regular life insurance policy there would be no problem. So, I would suggest that if you have an Accidental Death policy I would definitely check it.

[david holmes]

Is there anything lower than insurance companies?
Tim,
The most money I ever made was a 22 million $ settlement with a BIG insurance company for defrauding several dozen clients by mis representing their policy.

My part was a very small referral fee to Beasley & Wilson but still it was great for the time I had involved since my part was simply to haul my 3 clients to his office.

For a long time now, the auto insurance companies try to get to the client early and offer them a "reasonable" settlement on the spot and convince them that if they retain an attorney that the attorney will take 1/2 and it will take a long time. I don't have any beef with that. It's just when the insurance companies take advantage of the client that I get upset. Insurance companies take zip code into consideration when making settlement offers. The poorer the average income of the area, the less the settlement offer. I offered $30,000 to settle the above case and the Insurance company didn't take it because my law practice address was "tiny town" (I feel). In my case, my clients took home $165K plus.

The former adjuster for Alfa in this area went to law school -- Alfa paid -- then after working out his school repayment he quit and went into practice and is making more than he dreamed of -- because he knows all the insider BS.