PRA Official Election Results

[donshoebridge]

During the convention, there were several people asking what the vote count was for board members. The numbers were never read. Someone please post the election results for all to see.

Thank you

[Harry_S.]

I will second Don's request.

Number of votes for each candidate, please.

I would like to also know the number of ballots received and the number of ballots disqualified.

I am a PRA member...#7668.

Thank you.


Cheers :)

[KenSandyEggo]

I'm glad Don and you, Harry, asked the questions. Can you imagine the uproar if I asked for the specifics? "Causing trouble, rabble-rouser, malcontent, bitcher, griper, moaner, complainer, why do you want to know, what difference does it make, don't you have anything better to do......etc., etc., etc."

[BUD ONEAL]

Now Ken, don't flatter your self

[Harry_S.]

Whatever gave you that idea Ken?! No answer required.:cool:

Let's see how long it takes to get a reply to the inquiry?!


Cheers :)

[KenSandyEggo]

Heck, Bud. Every time I asked a question about the airport or PRA I got raked over the charcoal.

[donshoebridge]

Alright... Calm down everyone. Let's wait to see if there's a reply from the PRA within the next few days. I'll give them till next Monday, them I'll start pushing a little harder.

[Ron Iaconis]

During the convention, there were several people asking what the vote count was for board members. The numbers were never read. Someone please post the election results for all to see.

Thank you
Hey,
I have personnaly been involved in vote counting,,,,I am a past BOD member,,,,and trust me,,,the voting is counted,,,,someone looks over their shoulder to verify the count is correct,,,,and they are darn positive and darn sure of a correct vote and no " hanky-panky " stuff goes on,,,,,and all is above board. Listen,,,,,,we are all volunteers all dedicated gyro folks, all love the sport, why all the picky , picky remarks? You couldn't have given me Gary Goldsberry's job if you paid me. He worked his but off and he still does,,,,all gyro folks love the sport and give their all!

[Harry_S.]

I'm not being picky picky Ron I.

I'm just asking for the election results (ref. my post above.)


Cheers :)

[gyroplanes]

I do believe it was established as practice many years ago to not give the vote numbers garnered by any individual candidate. I did not agree with the practice, those that did said it was to keep from publicly embarassing the candidates.
I saw it as a way to gage if I would bother to run for BoD again. If you lose by a few votes it means the members still have some faith in you. If you lose by a landslide, maybe it's time to get out of politics.

Quite curiously, I had a talk with a current director regarding some pressing PRA issues, his comment to me was something like "I don't care about the politics, I just want to fly" ?

[Harry_S.]

I do believe it was established as practice many years ago to not give the vote numbers garnered by any individual candidate. I did not agree with the practice, those that did said it was to keep from publicly embarassing the candidates.
I saw it as a way to gage if I would bother to run for BoD again. If you lose by a few votes it means the members still have some faith in you. If you lose by a landslide, maybe it's time to get out of politics.

Quite curiously, I had a talk with a current director regarding some pressing PRA issues, his comment to me was something like "I don't care about the politics, I just want to fly" ?



I don't agree with that practice either Tom. I think it sucks and I think it's a bit juvenile...certainly not adult thinking...IMO.

This was not a secret boardroom election...I do believe it was a public election and the vote tally should be made public.

I don't understand why the ref. director above, wanted a board seat if all he wants to do is fly???


.

[rustynance]

Tom,
Feel free to contact me anytime to discuss PRA issues. My cell number is (803) 608-0360. If I don't answer, please leave a message and I will return your call. I usually leave the house about 6:30 am EST, have an hour drive to work, is a great time to call. Otherwise it can be hit or miss but I will get back with you either way.
Thanks
Rusty

[donshoebridge]

I do believe it was established as practice many years ago to not give the vote numbers garnered by any individual candidate. I did not agree with the practice, those that did said it was to keep from publicly embarassing the candidates.
I saw it as a way to gage if I would bother to run for BoD again. If you lose by a few votes it means the members still have some faith in you. If you lose by a landslide, maybe it's time to get out of politics.

Quite curiously, I had a talk with a current director regarding some pressing PRA issues, his comment to me was something like "I don't care about the politics, I just want to fly" ?

Hi Tom. Nice to see you at Mentone.

Even a corrupt government gives election results, even if they're made up. I'd be happy just to see fake numbers, but accurate numbers would be better.

Per the current by-laws...

Section 3 – Election

(a) The Election Report shall be conducted during the Life Member Meeting and at the General Membership Meeting during the Annual Convention. Elected nominees must be present during the Life Member Meeting to accept his appointment to the Board.

I was present at both meetings and except for “who won”, nothing else was said. I've searched the by-laws several different times looking specifically for wording that excludes or makes-confidential the election results. There is no such wording. I did hear through the grapevine that Stan was not eligible because he hadn't been a PRA member for 5+ years, and maybe someone decided that I wasn’t eligible either. But if this was the case, why were our names even in the magazine as being eligible in the first place? How many wasted votes would have been generated by this lack of action?

Tom, I’m not trying to blame you about this because I know you have nothing to do with this. I’m just looking for a better reason why the PRA wouldn’t announce the vote count, and “embarrassment” is not going to be a good enough reason for me. If I only received one vote, fine, let me know and I will not run again. But like I said earlier, I’ll give them till next week before I really throw a fit.

Side note: I was wondering why no one stated the election results, including Pam and Glenn.

[Rotornut]

Ken Said / Can you imagine the uproar if I asked for the specifics? "Causing trouble, rabble-rouser, malcontent, bitcher, griper, moaner, complainer, why do you want to know, what difference does it make, don't you have anything better to do......etc., etc., etc."

Come on Ken Get of your Band Wagon and stop thinking the World Hates You!

MJ :)

[KenSandyEggo]

O.K., O.K., MJ. I feel better now.

[Rotornut]

Ken, You should, Your taking my Spot, not just anyones Spot But Mine.
LOL Ken, Really what you think you think we think is not the Case Here.

MJ :)

[Rotornut]

Ken, My Dad always taught me that it does not Matter what others think about You it is What You Think Of Yourself! MJ :)
ps/ so get back to writing those stories that I LOVE to Read!

[StanFoster]

Don: In post #13 ...I saw my name mentioned and had to comment. I was asked to run while at Bensen days by Bill Finnegan and then was strongly backed by Greg Gremminger to pursue it. So I did. I mentioned that I had been a member for four consecutuve years ,,but also had some years of membership around 1985-1987.

I later was contacted by Greg saying that I would not be qualified until I had 5 consecutive years in....and that would not happen until the 2007 election for the board.

But then I was made to understand that they had a meeting and I was good to go,....so I went ahead and sent my stuff into the PRA magazine. Nothing else was ever said about my not having 5 consecutive years in until I just now read it in your post #13.

So...no grapevine...but straight from me. I was told my years were acceptable to qualify me. I would not have run otherwise.

Next year...I will have five consecutive years in....:)


Stan

[Rotornut]

Stan, Look Forward to seeing your name on the Ballot for 2007. Keep Positive Thoughts and the Years fly by faster than they just to.

MJ :)

[GyroRon]

i would run for board, but I have a couple more years to go.... I think one of two more...

[Rotornut]

Ron, You already have your hands full with Ch#13, and ROC. Please dont take on more than You can Handle. Indiana is far away and, BD Days beat them by at least 30 more Gyros present. Roc is growing in leaps and bounds, you might want to think about, just how far you can go with this CH.
only my 2 cents.

Richard has been in PRA for over 5yrs, but just hosting BD Days is more than enough for us.
MJ :)

ps/I also get to see more of the Family at BD Days! and I love it.

[donshoebridge]

Don: In post #13 ...I saw my name mentioned and had to comment. I was asked to run while at Bensen days by Bill Finnegan and then was strongly backed by Greg Gremminger to pursue it. So I did. I mentioned that I had been a member for four consecutuve years ,,but also had some years of membership around 1985-1987.

I later was contacted by Greg saying that I would not be qualified until I had 5 consecutive years in....and that would not happen until the 2007 election for the board.

But then I was made to understand that they had a meeting and I was good to go,....so I went ahead and sent my stuff into the PRA magazine. Nothing else was ever said about my not having 5 consecutive years in until I just now read it in your post #13.

So...no grapevine...but straight from me. I was told my years were acceptable to qualify me. I would not have run otherwise.

Next year...I will have five consecutive years in....:)


Stan

Stan,

Your membership record reads almost the same as mine does, and I too would not have run if it were not for the actions of Tim Blackwell and Glenn Bundy (and Greg had something to do with it as well). The point to all of this is who had the votes. I found it a bit strange that your name was announced at the BOD meeting as one of the winners and then they retracted it. After I heard the "not eligible" statement I was wondering if that was the reason your name was retracted all of a sudden. Then I got to thinking that if it could happen to you, then it could happen to me.

My problem here is this... If you and I were led to believe that we could run for a BOD position, were allowed to announce or candidacy, had our names printed on the ballet and in the magazine, only to find out at the very end that all the votes for us didn't count, even if you or I had enough votes to win a slot, then how honest is the voting system within the PRA?

If by the letter of the bylaws I was not eligible, fine, I can live with that, but my name still should not have been on the ballet because it would have denied votes to someone else. As a current PRA member, and as someone who ran for a BOD position, and the fact that there is no wording in the Bylaws to the contrary, then it’s up to the BOD and the new president to provide some clarity on this subject, to not only myself, but to you and everyone else that has an interest in the PRA. All I'm asking for is the vote count. And if either you or I had enough votes to win, then I also want an explanation as to why we were not elected.

I’ve already been asked if I wanted to run again (I said “sure, why not”), I’m sure you heard, but I have to tell you, I’m a little apprehensive. I’m sure you noticed that in my voice and in the delay of getting the answer out at the BOD meeting. But if I only had a handful of votes, then I’m going to pull my name now and not waste my time, anyone’s vote, or screw up someone else’s chance of winning. I’d much rather see you win a BOD slot than to have both of us loose. But if I had a large percentage of the votes, than I want to know that too.

[GyroRon]

Don, the flip side to your point of view is as follows..... If a person wants to be elected to the board, it is probably a good idea that this person has read and knows the by-laws themselves. If they did, then they would know before they run for board that they are eligible or not. See my point. It is just as much your fault as it is anyone elses.

Don't worry about it so much. There is always next year. Why not take the time you would have spent on the board and get your gyro flying? What is the roadblock to seeing your project completed?

[Heron]

yeah . . .and wear a pink tutu next time, williya? :D
Who ran . . .how many votes in the ballet for each?
That is the important question. We need to know how is the group shaping up.
It is though choice always, so many good candidates to choose.
Did Stan ran for pres or BOD?
Some candidates are a promise of more action, others more thinking and politics, a good minute of all actions regarding the election should be available for those far away. Even the gossips that will become "official" as the year progresses.
thanks
Heron

[rustynance]

Don,
I suggest you contact Dave Prater. He was responsible for the counting of the ballots. Too my knowledge substantially less than 300 ballots were recieved at the PRA office. Dave could give you some indication to the number of votes that went your way. I would not support posting the exact number of votes for each candidate on this forum. I would support posting the exact number of votes for each candidate on a PRA members only forum.

Stan's name was read by mistake when the new BOD was announced. Gary had several pieces of paper in front of him and simply looked at the wrong one momentarily. This was immediately corrected by Dave who had counted the ballots. Gary actually stated this immediately after being corrected by Dave. I was there, standing very close to you Don. Their is no conspiracy here.

I hope both of you run for the board again. You both bring a wealth of knowledge to the PRA.

If the PRA is to succeed, we need everyone working together. We can do great things for the rotorcraft movement, but the key word is WE. Greg is now the volunteer coordinator. If you have any special skills and have a little free time please contact him. He will try to match people to tasks in the future.

I have requested the Board minutes for both the PRA and PRA Mentone Inc, for the last ten years. I will review them thoroughly.

Should anyone have any questions or concerns about the PRA or any of its practices please contact me. My cell number is (803) 608-0360

Thank all of you for supporting the PRA

Rusty Nance
President

[donshoebridge]

[QUOTE=GyroRon]Don, the flip side to your point of view is as follows..... If a person wants to be elected to the board, it is probably a good idea that this person has read and knows the by-laws themselves. If they did, then they would know before they run for board that they are eligible or not. See my point. It is just as much your fault as it is anyone elses.QUOTE]

Actually Ron, I did read them and I decided not to run because I was not (I my eye) eligible. I stated this to a handful of people at one of chapter 81's meeting and was encouraged to run becasue I "was" eligible. In fact, I've been wanting to run for awhile but could not afford the $500 Life membership.

[donshoebridge]

Don,
I suggest you contact Dave Prater. He was responsible for the counting of the ballots. Too my knowledge substantially less than 300 ballots were recieved at the PRA office. Dave could give you some indication to the number of votes that went your way. I would not support posting the exact number of votes for each candidate on this forum. I would support posting the exact number of votes for each candidate on a PRA members only forum.

Stan's name was read by mistake when the new BOD was announced. Gary had several pieces of paper in front of him and simply looked at the wrong one momentarily. This was immediately corrected by Dave who had counted the ballots. Gary actually stated this immediately after being corrected by Dave. I was there, standing very close to you Don. Their is no conspiracy here.

I hope both of you run for the board again. You both bring a wealth of knowledge to the PRA.

If the PRA is to succeed, we need everyone working together. We can do great things for the rotorcraft movement, but the key word is WE. Greg is now the volunteer coordinator. If you have any special skills and have a little free time please contact him. He will try to match people to tasks in the future.

I have requested the Board minutes for both the PRA and PRA Mentone Inc, for the last ten years. I will review them thoroughly.

Should anyone have any questions or concerns about the PRA or any of its practices please contact me. My cell number is (803) 608-0360

Thank all of you for supporting the PRA

Rusty Nance
President


Thank you Rusty. I'll call Dave Prater.

[gyroplanes]

Nice to have you posting on the forum. It could keep you busy. I would like to see the non-sensitive PRA questions answered here instead of by phone calls. We can all learn from these exchanges.

Rusty, how about telling us your vision for the PRA's future. (I don't expect or want an immediate response)

Your loyal servant, Tom

[Harry_S.]

Mr. Nance;

You're asking for loss of leisure time by posting your phone number...unless you put it on hold or whatever; when you sit down for dinner or retire for the night.

I am not one, but...there are some radicals on this forum.:rolleyes: :D

I am encouraged by your availability to usn's and may I add my congrats to your election.:)


Cheers :)

[gyrogreg]

Just to set the record straight. All Nominees posted in the magazine and listed on the ballot were "eligible" candidates. No one was excluded and there were no wasted votes.

There are pros and cons to listing the actual tally of votes. But, if we do this, it should be made available to the PRA members only - another reason the "Members Only" section of the website is important.

Probably the worst thing about posting the vote counts might be showing how few members really take the time to vote! I'm not aware of the numbers either, but I have heard also that the total votes might have been close to 300.

For those worried about a "conspiracy", please volunteer to be a vote counter next year. At the Wednesday morning flight breifing, Dave Prater asked for volunteers to count votes - he got none or maybe one - and had to just arm twist some "volunteers" to help count votes. FYI - the process of counting votes involves two pairs of counters, calling out each vote, and a pair of tabulators marking down the votes. The pairs of teams are to avoid mistakes! Six people are involved, besides Dave Prater overseeing the whole process to make sure it works correctly.

What we really need is an early "volunteer" to be the BOD Nomination Committee Chairman. I volunteered for this job at Bensen Days, but we should start earlier to recruit more candidates and have better time to get their names and information out to members. We had a lot of candidates this year! But, only five openings - not everyone could win! Next year there will be fewer openings! But, I do hope the candidates this year will try again next year.

As far as the list of BOD members - it had been posted on the "Elections Results" thread under "PRA Discussion" on 7/23. I just got a little time to go through the forums this evening, and I found it right away! But, here it is again on this thread:

President: Rusty Nance (new BOD member)
VP: Greg Gremminger
Treasurer: Robert Rymer
Secretary: Glenn Bundy

Other BOD:
Ron Menzie
Ernie Boyette
Tim Blackwell
Steve McGowen
Jim Mayfield
Kerry Cartier (new BOD member)
Duane Hunn (new BOD member this year, but had been on the Board before)

- Thanks, Greg Gremminger

[GyroRon]

Rusty, I am so happy to see you are here on the forum to answer questions and that you are going out of your way to be there if anyone wants to ask you something. You are THE man!!!

[Friendly]

Greg,
I renewed my membership late and did not vote. NO EXCUSE.
There is a poll thread here on the forum that lets you vote and tells you if your have voted already.
It would be a wonderful thing (in my opinion) If we had an election day where we could vote by membership on line and if you did not do it on line you could mail in like absentee voting with all ballots mailed ahead of time. The results would be like watching the election returns on tv. I am pleased that responsible people have stepped up to lead in such times as this.
I hope and pray anyone who has been unhappy in the past will endevor to bury the past and encourage our new leadership . For past members whether they they were the best or the poorest, I thank them for making a committment to PRA. There are some things I would have done differently, but I do not know that I could have done it better. God Bless them all.

[Rotornut]

Rusty Said /If the PRA is to succeed, we need everyone working together. We can do great things for the rotorcraft movement, but the key word is WE.

Rusty, Richard and I want you to Know that Sunstate Wing & Rotor Club PRA Ch# 26 Support Greg and you Both. If we as a Chapter can Help you in anyway dont hesitate to call Richard 239-633-0156. We look Forward to Seeing you at BD Days 2007. Thanks for Steping up. We Love Ya MJ :)

PS./We is ALL of PRA Members and then Some, come on GyroNuts lets Help and give our Input to the New Prez.

[Rotornut]

Mark Said / I hope and pray anyone who has been unhappy in the past will endevor to
bury the past and encourage our new leadership .

Yes Mark we all Need to Support and Encourage the New PRES AND VP.
We need to All Stand UNITED! If we are to Survive. So to those sitting on the side lines with no PRA MEMBERSHIP NOW IS YOUR TIME TO SHOW YOUR SUPPORT! JOIN. MJ :)

[gyrogreg]

It would be a wonderful thing (in my opinion) If we had an election day where we could vote by membership on line and if you did not do it on line you could mail in like absentee voting with all ballots mailed ahead of time.

Hi Mark,
This is just one of the functions we would hope to be able to do with a "Membership Only" section of the PRA website. Tim Blackwell has volunteered to be doing this, but Tim certainly could use some technical web development expertise. I'm not sure that it would be a good idea to allow just one day of voting or to show a continuing tally of votes - tends to influence voting. But, an electronic way to supplement the paper ballots might be a really good way to encourage voting.

There are lots of other technical functions we have envisioned for a "Members Only" section of the web - keep the membership database on the web for automatic join and renewal and automatic access to the "Members Only" section - for instance. We also envision a full color PDF of each magazine issue on the web - give members a chance to voluntarily sae the PRA some printing and mailing expenses, with the benefit of full color even if we can't afford full color in the printed version! Searchable articles archives on the "Members Only" section - we will be looking for volunteers to scan old magazines and such to digitize the articles - this would not happen immediately, but we have a few years of Rotorcraft articles already digitized.

A "Members Only" section could have a lot other resources and benefits to attract and keep members. For instance, the "Members Only" section could have training resources that instructors and students could use for ground school, and test prep.

[Friendly]

Greg-
That is something, I think I could do;)

[Heron]

We could vote by Net, using PRA's site or even this Forum.
AS this Forum will be the window where people from all corners meet and trade info, it will also become a very important guide to future enhancement of the PRA.
Thanks Uncle Rusty for been here and I hope we do not choque you with too many questions and requests.
I feel we are on to something better, no descredit to all past leaders.
thanks
Heron

[rustynance]

MJ, I really appreciate that. I will certainly be calling on you and the Sunstate Chapter in the near future. Hope to see you at ROC.

Ron, I will endeavor to make myself available to the general membership. Hopefully, the PRA email address for the president will be redirected soon and I would like to use that means as much as possible. If someone really just wants to talk about an issue in real time then please use my cell number that was posted earlier. I would especially like to hear from all the chapter presidents on what they think the PRA can do to increase its membership base.

Tom, I'll make an attempt to describe my vision for the PRA.
There are several areas the PRA needs to improve in. Membership needs to increase above 2000. The services provided to the members should definitely increase in quantity and quality. Most importantly we need to become a family once again. Many other issues come to mind but I want to keep this short enough to not be cluttered.
Most of these are co-dependent and could be improved if we just did one thing; we have to make all of the PRA fly-ins fun for the whole family. With escalating fuel prices, most people just can't afford to take two vacations. One for the family and another for Mom or Dad to go to the convention or other fly-in such as Bensen Days or ROC to name a few. In years past the entire family looked forward to a flying event. We need that again. Next years convention will include more for the family. Mind you it's a start, we won't perfect it the first year, but it is a start. Please contact the convention Chairman with any ideas you may have in this area.

Bearing in mind that family should always come first, I have placed that issue at the beginning. That being said, my main issues for pilots within the PRA will be safety and education. You can think of education as training if you like but I think it is much more than that. Whether you are self taught or received dual from an instructor, we can all learn more about the aircraft we fly.
Kerry has done an outstanding job as the PRA safety guy. True wisdom is being able to learn from others mistakes. We are in the process of forming a committee that we hope can help the FAA during experimental rotorcraft accident investigations. Jim Mayfield has volunteered to provide assistance to this committee.
We need more technical articles in the magazine. We have relied heavily on Chuck for many years in this area and he has been flawless. It's time for some others to step up to the plate and help in that area. Al, Udi and the other smart guys, I want you to write and submit articles to the magazine.

This is part of my vision for the PRA. We have the best members of any organization out there. We have a superb Board of Directors. With a little work, we will grow in numbers, help each other, have fun, and be successful.

Thank you
Rusty

[Rotornut]

Greg G. Said / A "Members Only" section could have a lot other resources and benefits to attract and keep members. For instance, the "Members Only" section could have training resources that instructors and students could use for ground school, and test prep.

Mike Gaspard is your Man Greg. He designed and developed Sunstates web page with a Members only on many diff. items. Check him out and see if he can not help out. Mike was a God Send for Sunstate and Me who was in charge of keeping the web page. Thanks AGAIN MIKE. MJ :)

[Rotornut]

Rusty Nance Said / Most importantly we need to become a family once again.

That is One of the Most Important Things we could do Right Now.
But, then to Me all GyroNuts have Been Close to my Heart and I consider them FAMILY. MJ :)

[Rotornut]

Rusty Nance Said / Jim Mayfield has volunteered to provide assistance to this committee.

Thank You JIM MJ :)

[Rotornut]

Rusty Nance Said /We have relied heavily on Chuck for many years in this area and he has been flawless. It's time for some others to step up to the plate and help in that area. Al, Udi and the other smart guys, I want you to write and submit articles to the magazine.

Yes Chuck is the MAN. But he sure could use some more help like Doug Riley, Craig Wall the list could go on and on, but will they take the time to help as Chuck does? Please those with the Knowledge consider Rusty's View's and if you can Help Step Up To The Plate. MJ :)

[Rotornut]

Rusty Nance Said / MJ, I really appreciate that. I will certainly be calling on you and the Sunstate Chapter in the near future. Hope to see you at ROC.

Sunstate will be there when ever you need us Rusty. Our Chapter is now at 102 for members and growing strong.

Aug 12-13, 2006 Richard and Mike Radfford will be showing Gyro's and PPC at the BIG BOY AND TECH SHOW at the Harborside Convention Center here in Fort Myers, FL. I will set up a table for a Sunstate Members drive and PRA Members Drive, EAA Members drive. We hope to pull in those that want the TOYS. MJ :)

[Dean_Dolph]

MJ, I'm thinking that I should have volunteered you for Chapter Coordinator instead of volunteering myself! I, for one, appreciate the cheerleading.

ThanX, Mom, the family loves ya!

[gyrofly]

Are ballots sent out to members for proxy?
I joined the PRA sometime over a year ago and last thing I think I got was a magazine either late last or early this year. If I was overlooked or dropped without getting a renewal, I wonder if I was the only one?
How many mags have been out this year?

[gyrogreg]

The ballots were in the May issue or the magazine. thre have been two issues published this year. A third is due out soon.

If you have not been getting your issues, check with Jennifer at the PRA office - 574-353-7227 - to be sure your correct address is listed, and/or you have renewed your membership. Renewal reminder cards are sent out, and your due date is on the mailing label on your magazines.

there had been some defugalties in the membership renewal notices last year, please check with Jennifer to see that everything is OK with your membership.

- Thanks, Greg Gremminger

[gyroplanes]

there had been some defugalties in the membership renewal notices last year.

- Thanks, Greg Gremminger

Thanks for teaching me a new word.

[gyrofly]

Thanks Greg

[Rotornut]

"Build it and they will come" BD Days 2007 will be ready for all Aviation Flying.
Come join us at Wauchula, FL in April 2007. and check out one of the Gyro's Fly-Ins to Start the Year OFF. MJ :)

ps/You Will ENJOY YOURSELF!

[david holmes]

Thanks for teaching me a new word.
Tom,
I would have guessed that you learned that word as a child.

[gyroplanes]

Tom,
I would have guessed that you learned that word as a child.

I never heard it before. I guess I don't mess up that often? :-)

[PW_Plack]

Dean,

The schools idea is great, but unless they see it fly, it's a pile of aluminum tubes. The inspiring part, from a scientific standpoint, is how the rotors run with no drive in flight.

IMHO, anyway.

[gyrogreg]

Greg,
I participated at Oshkosh 1985 and many , many , many Bensens and others were there along with Chuck Vaneck's -------

Ron, Great! Let's do it again. What happened is that fewer and fewer gyros showed up and the ultralights and PPC, and Trikes started taking the gyro flying slot. I was there in 1985 also - not with a gyro, but with my Quicksilver MX ultralight flown from St. Louis. I did see gyros, but, like most other non-aficiandos of gyros, I don't remember being particularly impressed until I saw Dennis's AC - Got training that summer and bought one that Winter. I remember thinking to myself the Rotax engine and painted tubes made it feel like something I could trust! Maybe I didn't see your Bensen though!

But, the Mac Attacks and noise were something everybody mentioned when commenting about gyros. I might have a bit of a different opinion about painted tubes now that I know a bit more about what makes a gyro safe and fun, but I'm not sure I would trust myself to keep a Mac going reliably! And, I now know installing a Rotax for noise and reliability may not be the safest thing to do without knowing a bit more about gyro aerodynamics!

If there were a lot of pretty and clean home built Bensens, maybe we could re-ignite the interest in them again. But, I feel that the crowd at Oshkosh is hard to impress with something that doesn't look particularly pretty - to them!

I'm trying to duck out of this particular conversation now. Sorry for putting a burr under your saddle! I'm not trying to put down any simple and inexpensive gyros. If they are safe, I don't care what they look like or what they cost - and most gyro people are probably the same. I'm just saying that's not the crowd these days at Oshkosh! Carl and I tried for the last 5-7 years to talk more gyros into showing up and flying at Oshkosh, to make a gyro presence at Oshkosh. We had very limited success! I for one am tired of all that work for seemingly no real benefit to the PRA and gyros in general - I think Carl is too.

This is my last post response on this subject - thanks, Greg

[dragonflyerthom]

Greg

You are right. People want to be impressed. Look at the new shiny euro gyros, with their slick fuselages and powder coated frames. Not tubes. We can only blame the local mfg for this. Everyone screams high price but if that was a problem then there wouldn't be any aircraft sold. Look at all of the Motorhomes, look at all of the motorcycles sold, and look at the cost of fuel. This hasn't stopped people from buying what they want. We just need to show people that they really want a GYRO. Exposure, exposure, exposure and the more exposure you and I get the more gyros WILL be sold and bought. Look when we fly where do we fly? At the airport, over deserted fields, why not around the edge of town. Show people that these aircraft do fly.


Thom

[Dean_Dolph]

Ron I., there are gyro plans available so there is an alternative to factory machines. I believe Ernie, will sell you some and so will Ron Herron. And of course there is Ralph's GyroBee and Don's Hornet with free plans over the Internet. And these plans built machines reflect the new understanding about gyro stability and safety.

It is my opinion, and one I found that has been accepted by many, is that the GyroBee has replaced the Bensen/Brock as the entry level machine of choice. The Bensen has history on its side. And when built strictly to plans (most aren't!) then it should be a fairly safe machine; I'm still concerned about it not having a true horz stab. A casual newby observer will overlook the engineering behind the simplicity of this machine and do things while building that can compromise the design.

You can take issue with this if you want but the safety record of this machine is not the best. There is no doubt that part of the early incidents could be traced to self training. But the main reason I never built one (my wife bought me plans for Christmas in '69) was because there were too many of them falling out of the sky and the reasons given didn't satisfy me. PIO didn't sound like just a training problem. And I know now that it isn't.

The gyro community is now more educated, thanks to the Internet, and people like C. Beaty et al, and are not as willing to accept anything that does not satisfy the basic laws of physics.

We can thank Dr. Bensen for his invention but like any invention it gets improved (starting with the Brock) and superseded and this is what has happened. I know you love your Bensen and get a lot of enjoyment out of flying it but the fact is that the design has seen its day and it is now past. I wouldn't want to see the design disappear if only because of the historical value and with people like you who are devoted to it, it won't.

You build sanitary, nice looking machines and the latest one certainly drew a crowd at Mentone. The EAA has special interest groups for war birds and etc. so may be you can start a group within the PRA for Bensen owners and enthusiasts.

On the Oshkosh issue; wasn't there a time when a cross country from Mentone to Oshkosh took place?

[Dean_Dolph]

Dean,

The schools idea is great, but unless they see it fly, it's a pile of aluminum tubes. The inspiring part, from a scientific standpoint, is how the rotors run with no drive in flight.

IMHO, anyway.You are right, of course and while I haven't thought a presentation through, I'm hoping the classrooms have visual aides such as DVD or VCR available. That would take care of seeing one fly in lieu of the real thing. We can't always provide what we would like but it is a case of numbers and the more people, of all ages, that we can expose to the activity, the better our chances of recruiting some.

What would be ideal would be a Dan Donley, Tim Chick or Shawn Adams created video incorporating Al Hammer graphics that demonstates the basics of gyro flight and design. Actually, this would be of value to our CFIs and student pilots.

The magic, as it is so often described, of autorotating rotors is exactly what I had in mind for the science and physics classes.

We have a pretty progressive school district locally that attempts to provide all students with a chance at earning a living. Part of that mission has been a center for what was called industrial arts when I attended school. I was thinking about suggesting to them that they take on a gyro building project. However, in this day and age of video games one can't be sure that students would be as enthused about aviation as our earlier generations were.

[Vance]

Hello Dean,

I think that would be a wonderful project.

I found little exciting in school and didn’t become interested in math until I was thrown out of political science class and read Hotrod magazine in the library. I became caught up in cam timing and stroke/rod ratios as related to piston acceleration. Now part of how I make my living has to do with math.

I believe that understanding how Autogiros fly is particularly math heavy and AL Hammer is very good at making it understandable.

We might even find some corporate sponsorship so it is not a money pit.

Thank you, Vance

[gyromike]

I split off the discussion about growing the PRA, and started a new thread here:

Growing the PRA and it's chapters. (http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9369)

[Dean_Dolph]

Very kind of you Mike! We had pretty much hijacked this one.

Edit: However, you missed a couple of posts that needed to be moved and looks like a reply that I made to Ron I. is missing; at least I haven't found it yet. It was in different hijacking direction! I had some thoughts in the missing post that I wanted to present to Ron about Bensen machines.

2nd Edit: It also looks like the Ron I. post I replied to is also gone. Does that mean these posts are gone forever? I can always try to recreate but I'm never as creative the 2nd time around.

[Timchick]

Some of my sample gyro DVDs will soon be available through PRA for chapters to give out at fly-ins. I've changed it slightly and added PRA's web address to the main menu. If there are people within the chapters that can make copies of the DVD's they are welcome to do so.

[Jazzenjohn]

I think Tim's videos are a great gyro promotion tool. I think the best way to promote gyros would be to sell them at a nominal fee to people at fly-ins and pancake breakfasts that are NOT typically gyro centered. My plain jane, dirty, beat up Gyrobee attracted many many people at the last pancake breakfast I went to. As many as the shiny jet helo parked next to it!!
I was really sorry I didn't have some of Tim's videos to sell for 5 bucks or so, and some gyro brochures with some general info and the PRA address and subscription form to give away. I think I could have rounded up a subscription or two If I had them.
I also agree with Ralph Taggert that we as a group would get more potential converts at ragwing and ultralight fly-ins that are windy by demonstrating the gyros advantages.

[dragonflyerthom]

Keep the ideas coming

Then we can implement them. That should start the tonges a wag in and create a genuine interest in our sport.

Thom

[Timchick]

We ought to plan on making an extra big push next summer. We can stock up on videos, brochures, etc. over the winter, get a game plan and then plan on hitting a bunch of the UL fly-ins next year.

[Jazzenjohn]

I agree Tim. I'm going to try that initially at the ASC convention in a couple of weeks. It is pretty close to me. Hopefully I'll have my prerotator on by then. I'd like to have a printable tri fold gyro information sheet with maybe a PRA membership application on it. Do we have something like that available?
I'd also like to duplicate some Gyro dvd's too. I ordered it by paypal. I think the Gyromania 2005 would be best.

I hope the broken link on the PRA website to join gets fixed soon.

[Dean_Dolph]

........ I'd like to have a printable tri fold gyro information sheet with maybe a PRA membership application on it. Do we have something like that available?......Tim 'O Connor made one and Gary Kaminski modified it to make it more generic. Here is a thread where it is discussed.

http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=111949#poststop

I downloaded it and it looks good but it doesn't include a PRA app as you would like. However, when I went to my local Kinko's they wanted $1.78 a copy using a heavier weight paper. If I can just get it copied on a color copier that will do two sided printing then that is the way I intend to go. My chapter, or me, can't afford $178 for the intial 100 copies I intend to make.

I don't have a way to modify the tri-fold and add local chapter info so will just hand out business cards or get a stamp made to use on the brochure.

[Rotornut]

YOU WANT THIS DVD FOR YOUR CLUB MEMBERS IT IS GREAT!

Tim on Sun we played your DVD'S on my sons Portable DVD Player and I was shocked at how many stayed there to watch the whole thing. You did good!

Thanks TIM :)


Dan Donley's Tape also played all day and DAN you had them Laughing so much (vegie mattic lol) that I was Impressed, Keep up the good work on the DVD's. Thanks to All PRA Members who helped us Promote the Movement.

MJ :)

[Timchick]

MJ,
Glad you're putting them to good use.

John,
Mailed out your DVDs today.

[dragonflyerthom]

Thanks MJ

We really need more like ya.


Thom

[Rotornut]

Tim, Thom, I had Much Fun!! Loved to see the reaction when they asked some of the questions about Gyro's! lol. We do it for ALL of Us. We need every Plug we can get and then some. Bud O'Neal left us in Charge and Charge is what we are doing. Thanks for All of you all's Support. It is so GOOD to Visit with the Family at BD DAYS. See you all soon. MJ :)

Bud, I Love Ya and Miss you, and the Family Take Care MJ :)