New Director, ASC Rotor Wing

[Robert G. Stark]

I have now become the new Rotor Wing Director in the Aero Sports Connection. I am planning a Rotorwing Nationals for September of 1007. This is slightly over a year from now, but I am trying to plan ahead.
What I need from everyone on this here is ideals of what you would like to see and do. What would inspire you to attend.

[dragonflyerthom]

Congratulations. Hope you every success.



Thom

[Rehan K.Janjua]

Hello Bob.

Thats great Congrats.
Your Inputs and concepts will certainly improve the sport in safety and encourage people to take part.

Good luck and wish you all the success.

Rehan

[gyromike]

Robert,

Where will the Nationals be held?

[chuter]

Will they be open to ASC members only? Ultralight only?

[Vance]

Hello Dr. Stark,

Congratulations!

To be involved on such a high level in your passion is an uncommon opportunity. ASC seems to be particularly innovative.

Clearly you will be investing time and energy into rotor wing aircraft. I would be grateful if you would share your vision of the future of the sport of flying things with rotors.

I am particularly interested in things like growth of the sport, training and safety.

What will your relationship with current manufactures look like?

How do you see your interaction with the PRA?

How do you see your roll with the FAA?

How does the EAA fit into your vision?

I know that you will be very busy with your new position, but seeing the world through your eyes would have considerable value to me.

Thank you, Vance

[BUD ONEAL]

Good idea Robert, But let's change it to sept. 2007 then I can make it.

[JRB549]

I would like to see the largest gathering of gyros in the world with national media coverage to promote not the negitive but the positive of our sport for the future generations to see.

I'm new enough that I'm still high, so to dream on this scale to me does not seam imposible.
I know alot of us go to various fly-in throughout the year at a great cost to our pockets, But if there were a place where we knew that the whole world would get the true picture of what our sport is all about I feel as a group effort we could make this the largest single event of our sport to show the world. How about a day where every contry in the world in the gyro sport cold meet and multicast between each other to make a statement we are a true sport. O.K. I'm done dreaming now someone blow me out of the water with why O why it wont work Thank you

[JRB549]

I know GYRO DAY!

[Heron]

Congratulations to all of us . . .you rock Bob!
Heron

[Vance]

Hello J.R.

The event is going on now at Mentone. I believe that Mentone is the biggest Rotary wing event in the country and the USA has more gyroplanes and helicopters than any other country.

That is why the future is so interesting and Robert G. Stark has a vision of that future and will play a part in it.

Thank you, Vance

[Ralph]

Bob has the time, energy, and ideas that can help to recognize some of the potential of the Rotor Wing within ASC. ASC covers the entire gamut of light aviation and it is a big organization. Rotorcraft are a very small component of ASC but we have a lot to contribute and much that we can gain. Accomplishing that while maintaining good relationships with the PRA can be a juggling act.

One of the challenges we continue to face to how to legitimize our aircraft in the larger context of sport aviation. An important part of that is getting gyro participation in broadly-based events such as KIMO and other large fly-ins. While it is nice to think about a "nationals" event (ignoring the fact that we already have such events in the context of Bensen Days, Mentone, etc.), we need to avoid the feel-good temptation to strut our stuff in a pretty small pond!

Bob now has a lot on his plate and will need all the help the rest of you are ready to give!

Ralph

[Friendly]

http://www.aerosports.org/ they have a nice web site. Looks like they really push "assisting " their members.

[JRB549]

True Vance, but I mean at one time all over the world,and I dont see ESPN at mentone or any other covarge that takes this sport to the people other than those that attend or are already in the sport.
Most people dont even know what a gyro is other a sandwich, and I have a good idea there are no plans to do anything than just get together and have fun flying within our sport, no type of fundraisers for groups to expose our gyros for a good cause,no social event nothing.

[automan1223]

Curious what happened to Ralph T ?

[Robert G. Stark]

I plan to hold the Nationals in Olney, Texas. I have a fairly large airport with three 5100 ft runways and taxiways. Smooth pavement and taxiways.

OK 2007 it is and in September. Gee I was going to have it in one of my earlier lives. WTH

The nationals will be open to everyone. I think that I would require that ultralight pilots be approved for solo by a BFI or AFI if they want to fly during the event. Gyros should have their test time done. We don't need any accidents.

I am a member of PRA and EAA as well as ASC. I am planning the Nationals in September in order not to conflict with PRA and EAA.

As far as FAA, I am both a maintenance and a manufacturing DAR as well as electrical DER. I have A&P, IA, and a repairstation. As you can see, I deal with FAA a lot and have good relations with them.

I think that the growth of the sport is dependent on improving our image by betted self disiplane, self regulation, training, consideration for others and other means of proving that we are qualified and carefull. The accident rate that we once had is a big handicap to us all now.

JRB549, I definately think that it will work, come help me "Make it so"

I intend to dream the impossible dream and get it done.

Ralph Taggart started this wing and went as far as his time would allow. He does have to earn a living. I have no family to support so can put more time into this activity. Ralph reccommended me to Jim Stevenson to take this on. I plan to do more than my best, youall help.

As was told in Startrek, The undiscovered country, I see our future as the undiscovered country. What that country becomes is up to ALL of us. First, I need your ideas, wants, desires: then I need your help to do it.

I may not be able to get ESPN, I will start with the local TV station and work up from there.

Keep up the flow of ideas, suggestions, wants, even demands. I may not be able to use all of them, but I plan to use the best of them.
Bob Stark

[KenSandyEggo]

Bob, I know you're busy, but did you get my e-mail that I sent through the Forum? I had a couple questions about my mags.

[JRB549]

You can count on me for anything and I will be there, drop me a p/m if I can be of help for whatever you need.

[Heron]

Media coverage in Olney has been great and some National event should atract more of it with broader range. Gyros need that!
It will be great to see that aiport full of people and aircraft.
The try outs have been done with the annual (bi) Gyro Gatherings promote by Bob and Bob.
I am very happy with this situation! Lets help!
Heron (should I move to Olney?) :D

[Robert G. Stark]

Heron you are welcome in Olney any time, short or long.

[Mike Schallmann]

September is a DIRECT CONFLICT with the Ken Brock Freedom Fly-In at El Mirage Dry Lake. By Scheduling it then you have pretty much eliminated any of the west coast people from attending. I live in AZ and I would have gone --but it is El Mirage for me!

[automan1223]

Mike,

Life is fully of tough, really tough choices. Make the best of it.

Jonathan

[Vance]

Hello Mike,

I look forward to seeing you at the Ken Brock Freedom Fly in Sept 22 to Sept 24 2006.

I don’t have the dates for 2007; it has usually been around the third weekend in September.


Dr Stark, I would be grateful if you would separate the events by at least two weeks.

Thank you, Vance

[Mike Schallmann]

Automan --this AINT a tough choice -- the KBFFI will always win out !! It IS the BEST--You cant find a better place to fly -- a 7x2 mile dry lake that is smooth---

[Heron]

April is Bensen DAys and Sun-N-Fun
July/August Mentone and Osh
September/October SX DAys and ROC
Olney will have some advantages, maybe bigger attendance of aircraft, better facilities, those runway are huge and lots of breeze (too much sometimes)
I wish Olney was closer to a big airport.
All comes to repetition and improvement, in time it coul be a tradition.
Heron

[Robert G. Stark]

I am thinking of changeing the date to two weeks later to avoid the Ken Brock meet. Cannot go earlier as the ASC other nationals is then. I do want your comments and suggestions to help make this event great.

[Rotornut]

Bob Sad /I think that the growth of the sport is dependent on improving our image by betted self disiplane, self regulation, training, consideration for others and other means of proving that we are qualified and carefull. The accident rate that we once had is a big handicap to us all now.

But in the years there is alot of Old Timers, way before my time that fly without Radio's or Helmet. Hard to try to change the ones that learned and flew many many years this way. MJ :)

Saftey is ONLY My Concern, Guess I listen to Charlie more than I realized.
I cant stress to all Pilots in Command of a Gyro to Do a VERY DETAILED PRE-FLIGHT AND IF YOU FEEL SOMETHING IS NOT RIGHT, PICK YOUR SPOT, WE WILL COME GET YOU, WE HOPE TO FIND ONLY MACHINE DAMAGE. And be able to taxi or trailer you back to the airport. MJ :)
PS/ask Sunkist Bull Brown about his landing in the Orange Trees.!
But other than a few stiches and damage to his machine all was well.
Pilot did the right thing at the time he had to make that decision.

[Robert G. Stark]

I just had a long conversation with Rusty Nance, the new president of PRA. We plan to work together for the benefit of all gyro flying. We will promote safety, training, safety, centerline thrust, safety and Horizontal Stab. Youall come help.

[Rotornut]

Bob, Most members do help. But most of our Help is within our Chapter and hosting BD Days. MJ :)

[Doug Riley]

Bob, free advice is worth what you pay for it, but if I were you, I'd emphasize increased gyro attendance at the main ASC event over Labor Day. We badly need to be seen by practitioners of other kinds of fun flying.

Secluded flyins just for ourselves are great. We all enjoy idea-swapping, community-building and general hacking around in our aircraft. We aren't on stage and can relax.

Our community size is below critical mass at the moment, though. We need to show ourselves to the public, even if that means we have to behave. It would be ideal if someone could offer intro gyro lessons at the ASC Nationals.

[JRB549]

Mr, Doug you are 100% right this sport needs a complete facelift in the P.R. dept.
I talked to Catfish the other day and he will be doing a convention show with his bird to bring awareness of the gyro to the public in Aug. These are the types of events we need to promote NO flying just sharing information with the asking public.

[Dean_Dolph]

I got back from Mentone last Monday evening and this is the first day I've had time to visit the Forum and my first post since. I hope I remember how!

This is an intriguing thread and I too belong to several aviation organizations, including ASC and PRA.

It has been cussed, discussed and suggested before that there be a strong alignment between the PRA and ASC.

It seems to me that there has always been a connection since in the earliest of ASC's days, Jim Stephenson used the PRA convention at Mentone as a recruiting station. He has attended Mentone several times and was at Bensen Days this year. If I recall correctly (don't you love my wishy washy disclaimers!) there was a formal agreement between the two associations on the subject of gyro training. I suspect that this was the origin of the gyro AFI and BFI.

It is also my understanding that ASC (I think I could safely say J. Stephenson!) has shown an interest in using Mentone for their Nationals. If so, then I can see a win win situation for both the PRA and ASC.

[Doug Riley]

Yes, ASC was the only agency that was willing to set up a BFI program for ultralight gyros. I asked USUA a couple times and they flatly refused.

Ralph Taggart and Jim Stephenson worked together on gyro-BFI standards and tests. They gave a very persuasive joint pitch for the program at (I think I have the year right) Mentone 2000. They got to me...

Doug Riley
ASC BFI (Powered Rotor Wing)

[gyroplanes]

Yes, ASC was the only agency that was willing to set up a BFI program for ultralight gyros. I asked USUA a couple times and they flatly refused.

Doug Riley
ASC BFI (Powered Rotor Wing)

It was truly sad that the PRa didn't set up the gyroplane BFI & AFI programs. Maybe in the future the PRA can take a leadership role.

Getting the FAA to allow SLSA gyroplanes would be a great first step.

[Rotornut]

Doug Riley Said /It would be ideal if someone could offer intro gyro lessons at the ASC Nationals.

Now that is a Great Idea. But someone would have to help the CFI with his fuel cost in order for him to not take the blunt of the cost. Donation kitty out. EAA Young Eagles fly-in's take up kids for free to experience flight and to let them learn about aviation.

Great Post Doug. MJ :)

[Robert G. Stark]

We will have demonstration rides during the Rotary Wing Nationals in the fall of 2007. Each 4th saturday, weather and schedules permitting, we have gyro lessons here on Olney Airport.

[Ralph]

Bob,

You are putting all your eggs into one basket and that basket is already full. We have multiple fly-ins every year that range from national to international in scope - Mentone, Bensen Days, Rotors over Carolina, and El Mirage are just a few that spring to mind. If you want to leverage the Rotorwing, you could work to enhance one or more of the existing fly-ins rather than going it alone. Besides, the basic strategy is flawed!

If we look at the days of peak growth for the PRA, gyro material was appearing regularly in mainstream aviation publications like Kitplanes, Popular Mechanics was treating gyros, and gyroplanes were obvious at major national fly-ins such as Oshkosh and Sun-n-Fun. The key to growth of gyros in gneral and the Rotorwing in particular is to showcase gyros at mainstream ultralight/light aircraft fly-ins.

For example, KIMO is the ASC Nationals which will be held over Labor Day. KIMO is saturated with powered parachute guys who are our best possible recruits. They know open-air flying and two-stroke engines, but they quickly get frustrated with the limits on when they can fly. Events like KIMO and others around the country should be targets for gyro participation - including flying and rides (excuse me, "instruction"). There are a lot of gyros in the greater midwest that can and do make KIMO. Ditto all those southern good old boys when it comes to Sun-n-Fun. I am not convinced that gyros can truely impact Oshkosh, but there are dozens of fly-ins and hundreds of Dawn Patrols where we can make a difference.

You can certainly organize a Texas fly-in and even call it the Rotorwing Nationals, but it is the very idea of separating the Rotorwing Nationals from the ASC Nationals which is a non-starter. We have well-established rotor fly-ins now and they are great fun. Unfortunately, they are not doing a good job growing the sport.

Put bluntly, if you want to mount a missionary operation, you don't send the troops to churches, you send them out into a world of non-believers. The parallels with gyros and the rest of aviation should be pretty obvious.

Ralph

[GyroRon]

I agree with Doug and Ralph 100 percent.

[Ron Iaconis]

I have to second that notion,,,regarding the aircraft community,,aka Oshkosh, ect.
The ultralite community ( even counting when I used to fly at Ultralite gatherings) The ultralite guys welcomed me and even were very interested in that I didn't concern myself with the time of day whether or not it was calm enough to fly. The general aviation community has what they either want to fly or are flying what they want to fly. Most of that community already know what we fly and if they feel it is for them. The general public and the little guys , like ultralites are generally who I believe are interested in our sport. Yes, we have people who are " heads" of a large company or high up on the ladder of the company,,,,but they usually fly a more expensive type machine( 25K -35K $$$ ) but the numbered masses of folks like myself, are looking for the fun, single place, price affordable gyro. So ,,,,, to expose our sport to the possible interested parties , then I agree with the guys on the above posts.

[Doug Riley]

MJ, I didn't mean to imply that someone should give rides for free. I actually disagree with giving other poeple's young children rides in experimental aircraft. I think Young Eagle flights ought to be done in certified aircraft.

In the past, I've given intros at the big regional USUA flyin in NH. I charge the same as the other aircraft on the field: $40 per intro. I sit each candidate down in the shade and we go through the control motions for airspeed control and turns. With a stable gyro, I can turn them loose to play with their new skills once we get to altitude. It's a genuine first lesson.

This actually pays about as well as hourly instruction and it makes many friends for gyros.

More free advice for poor Bob:

Some of us have family "things" at every major holiday. I've never been able to make KIMO or ROC for that reason. It might be good to investigate whether attendance would be better or worse if the events were not on holiday weekends.

[gyroplanes]

Last year Adam Helwich took his newly constructed 'Bee to KIMO and stole the show. Folks ran to the fence to watch him fly.

It was kind of fun when they later questioned him about his gyro skills and found out he wasn't a grizzled veteran, but a 20 hour rookie. This year Adam sports a smoke system and will have our new club Monster gyro along as well.

All I ask is if you take a gyro to a big show...... rethink the duct tape and wire ties. We need a trifle more professionalism.

[Heron]

Keep going guys . . .I am listening!! :D
The feeling is good about all that is going on with our group and machines.
thanks
Heron

[animal]

I think the more small local fly-ins and airshows that the Gyros can invade,really get the word out. there are people out there for sure just waiting to learn more about these machines. just look at all the hits that have viewed Tim's gyro videos on youtube and read some of the comments.
I was amazed to see how many views they have had already over 1000 on almost every video. I know in the early days local EAA chapters use to set up mall displays. they would get the mall to let them set up a display for a day or 2 of some of the aircraft and projects and have a few volenteers stay there and answer questions. some malls would even block off a place to land and some of the stol homebuilts would land in the parking lot.

I don't see why with as easy as it is to transport a gyro or homebuilt helicopter why a mall display could not be arranged.
just some thought from how they use to do it.

Lord knows how much media coverage you could get,if they where to block off the parking lot and let a few select pilots do some demo flights
but I wouldn't hold my breath on demo flights...

[Rotornut]

INSURANCE is Their Biggest Concerns for them and others. MJ

[david holmes]

MJ,
The Navy wanted $1,000,000 liability just for a 2 day STATIC DISPLAY and the insurance co. wanted $600 to cover it.

I did not go.

[Timchick]

How about boat shows and stuff like that?

[gyroplanes]

Our club has done mall shows (2) (they were our best for recruitment)
Parades, a gun show, The "World of Wheels" rod and custom show and we are going to try a cruise night later this fall.

[PW_Plack]

David says,

The Navy wanted $1,000,000 liability just for a 2 day STATIC DISPLAY and the insurance co. wanted $600 to cover it.

Maybe they saw your avatar! :eek:

[TomCarlisle]

September will conflict with the Freedom Fly-in at El Mirage. Maybe they could be held together. El Mirage is a great venue for gyro flying and world class coverage is close at hand.

[dragonflyerthom]

Ahhh Tom the thrill of desert flying.


That would be too far for a lot of members here. Texas is in the middle of this great country.


Thom

[chuter]

Texas is in the middle of this great country.


Yeah! We need something here in the middle. Most of the stuff is on the east side, El Mirage is on the west, Mentone is northeast; how about the middle!:(

[dragonflyerthom]

Robert

It is marketing that will bring lots of pilots and Mfgs to your fly in site. This and the lead time before the event that will help in the planing of vacations and must do fly ins. But marketing is the most important.

[gyroplanes]

Yeah! We need something here in the middle. Most of the stuff is on the east side, El Mirage is on the west, Mentone is northeast; how about the middle!:(

Hey, Mentone IS the in middle, as in Midwest. When I lived in OKC I was surprised they call Oklahoma "the Midwest" Up here in the Chicago area, we think we are in the center of it all.

IIRC a small town in Nebraska is actually the geographic center of the USA, but there's nothing there so we'll have to fight over the title of "Midwest"

[gyroplanes]

We had PRA conventions in Fredrick, OK and in Herne, TX.

We almost had a convention in Bartlesville, OK. Its' the main reason we have the Mentone airport now.

[Rotornut]

OMG David, Life anymore is getting way out of Line. $$$$ Hope I never experience the Ugly Green Monster myself. Blue Collard Worker for me, seems to fit the bill. MJ :)

[Rotornut]

But marketing is the most important. Got that RIGHT!

That is why Sunstate has a Member that Volunteer's his Marketing Skills for us. We had more Ultralights and diff types of machines this year (06) at BD Days than we have had in years. He has been working real hard for us.
Mike Radfford, Richard, MJ will be showing our Gyro and Mike's PPC at the BIG BOYS & TOYS EXPO next weekend. Mike arranged for Richards machine to be outside static display along with his for sale PPC, and Mike is inside with a Booth to sell PPC. I also will set up a table to hand out Gyro Info and sign up Members for Sunstate, EAA, PRA, ASC ETC. MJ :)

[BUD ONEAL]

Way to go M.J and sunstate. Wish that I were there to help you.

[Ron Iaconis]

IMHO I came into gyros over a very long infancy period,,,,from the age of 12 to 14 or so. It took till I was 40 to actually GET into gyros and actually fly my own. And even after I became immersed in the gyro movement , I fadded out for a time,,,due to other distractions( like money, kid's college,ect) but the basic interest has always been ther since childhood. I have noticed over the years of my time in gyros,that many enter into the gyro community with a burst of enthusiasm and after a while they " fizzle out " ...Fast into the gyro sport and fast out! Not all but an awfull lot of people get the bug,,,and then loose it,,,,,,,So,,,,,I believe that a strong steady building back the numbers is a good way to reinforse our ranks. For instance at the Chapter 4 West Penn Club in Western PA. Homer Kerr has been there since Louis Darvasy,,,,He just relinquished his name on the Contact for the Club after about 35 years! now that's a long time! Jim Nadig , an instructor with a RAF has taken over as the contact, and Jim is a very serious, well enthusiastic member of PRA. He has his camp set up at the front of the PRA Mentone site right at the entrance to the camp sites. JIm and his son and son-in-law are there and Jim is like a Rock there to be available to the gyro newcommers. So, my point is this,,,,,,Be there, answer questions, and help out where necessary.

[Rotornut]

WOW! We showed our Gyros off and PPC at the BIG BOYS AND TOYS EXPO!
We had a Great turn out. So much so that we where asked to bring the Neon Green and Purple Gyro into the COLD AIR INSIDE FOR A FREE BOOTH!
As JR can attest to we had lots of Interest in the Gyro and the PPC.
Thanks JR we did a good Job of showing our Wares. We will see if they show up to Fly in Sept. Hope so lots of people remember the Popular Mech. Mag with the Bensen Ad. (God am I getting OLD) We went from there and RAN with it. Gosh I miss so Many of the Old Timers and Remember them at each and every Fly-In and Show. I know I felt the Breeze from the Gold Wings as they watched over us Sat/Sun. It was ALOT of WORK and Hoping to see it pay off, by getting some Young Blood up in the Blue Sky. MJ :)

[Rotornut]

PS/ Bud you Trained us WELL! Thanks so Much for all you did and do for Sunstate. We Miss You All. MJ :)

[dragonflyerthom]

Waaaay to goooooo. Thats what I'm talking about.



Thom

[RockyMeLad]

Up here in the Chicago area, we think we are in the center of it all.

But Tom, it's not always good to be in the middle...
Avalanches, tsunamis, tornados, the mid-west...
This he says from deep in the heart the Sonoran Desert. :D

Our biggest calamety is there's very little out here to attract lots of people (which is why we like it here. :) ), but makes it difficult to promote fly-ins, etc.

OK or east TX is a long way to drive, but about as good as it will probably ever get. This he says having never been to any of the Olney fly-ins yet. :(

[Rotornut]

Hi Rocky, Hope you are well, and Blue Sky's ahead. Take Care MJ :)