Backpack Gyro

[mgber]

I was wondering if any of you guys thought it would be possiable to design/develope/make a backpack gyro, similar to a backpack powered parachute. Just a thought!:)

[Cobra Doc]

Anything is possible. I depends on how much time and money you have. I used to listen to other peoples opinions about some of my ideas. I missed out on in-line skates and mountain boards.

[Bob Simmons]

sorry mike, it don't seem possible. it just takes to much thrust to keep something like this in the air. thrust comes from horse power and that means a big pusher engine which weighs a bunch. thats a lot to be putting on your back old buddy.:rolleyes:

[mgber]

This would NOT use legs as landing gear. Possiably alum./steel tube behind the legs. By backpack I mean w/o a large, complex frame (think Gyrobee w/o keel tube).
-Mike

[Bob Simmons]

mike, it all has to do with how much weight your trying to pick up that is strapped in to this gyro back pack. it also has to do with how much weight a pilot can hold up and control. the new double bladed mini helicopter has the potential to be a great back pack helicopter for a very lite pilot. the gyro idea would never work because the helicopter pricipals don't apply to the gyro. i fly a gyro. without the engine and the rotor bades, the gyro frame hardly weighs anything. the fuel weighs 40 lbs. and the engine weighs over 130 lbs. (engine. gearbox, prop) and it puts out 340 pounds of thrust to push a set of 25 foot, 70 lb. skywheel rotor blades. it takes the frame to hold all this together to perform flight. you would have to experiance all the power it takes to make all this work together to obtain flight. then you would understand what i am saying. bensen would of already built it if it would of been easy old buddy. of course this is my opinion from my gyro flying experiance.
love ya man............keep asking those questions.:)



This would NOT use legs as landing gear. Possiably alum./steel tube behind the legs. By backpack I mean w/o a large, complex frame (think Gyrobee w/o keel tube).
-Mike


I was wondering if any of you guys thought it would be possiable to design/develope/make a backpack gyro, similar to a backpack powered parachute. Just a thought!:)

[dragonflyerthom]

Bob you haven't told him about take off speed. I really don't think mgber can run that fast...

Just a thought.


Thom

[Ga6riel]

why on earth would you attempt such a thing
quite unlike Bells Jet Belt, a 20 + ft rotor is hardly backpackable or convenient

that said there was some interest in this notion with a genesis back around the 1950s. Back when there was a lot of field experimentation going on.

[gyroparts]

Just remember that in quite a few accidents where the rotor has hit the ground at flight speed, the mast is sheared off. In this case, that would be your spine!

[SamL]

Dont ask me Who, When, Were, or Why, So here you go!!!!!!

Sam.

[Bob Simmons]

well heck. here i go again. this is one of those contraptions that someone

probably made to get a patent on, but it never really worked. in rescue

training, i had to be suspended from a safety harness. it has been proven by

osha that you can only last a short amount of time in this harness like this

before you die from poor circulation of blood ( it becomes poison to the

body). the same thing happens to a person that has been in a cave-in. it

cuts the blood off and poisons the person when the weight is removed from

the body and the blood re-circulates. The next observation would have to

do with the center of gravity. If you ever get a chance to wear one of

these harnesses, you will realize that it is almost impossible to extend your

arms out in the manner this inventor is trying to show. You will always be

leaning forward and all you can do in this harness is hang. This guy is trying

to sell a product and you can bet it never got off the ground. it’s a great

idea that needs to be improved on. Kind of like the guy that gets an a crowd

together to jump off a bridge with the idea that his home made wings are

going to send him soaring through the sky. I have had the same dreams of

building things like this when I was a kid, that’s why I was so fascinated by

the gyro copter I saw in the back of the comic books I read . Bensen made

my dream come true. All I had to do is buy his proven kit, put it together,

and that would get me flying in the sky. Note: its all good stuff. Dreaming

about this kind of stuff is what got us this far. Knowing what we know now,

helps us understand pictures and ideas like this don’t mean a thing, unless he

was flying it around in the sky to prove it works. My opinion.:rolleyes:

[SamL]

Bob
The harness blood poisoning thingy I had no idea about.
Thats interesting as many years ago I did some joint training with the U.S. Rangers, were we were taught to absail using rope harnesses.
I guess this would make things even worse. Seemed lots of fun at the time !!!!

Regards SamL

[dragonflyerthom]

Bob

You are a wealth of OSHA information.


Thom

[Cobra Doc]

Just 'cause it hasn't been done or isn't practical doesn't mean it can't be done. Look at computerized toasters (No, not the Toyota Scion!)! I don't see where they accomplish anything, but lots of people buy them!!

[Ga6riel]

thats a bit like
GM is in difficulty being unable to market its products
yet Toyota cant produce enough hybrid cars
you would think the line of sight is easy but
for some reason monolithic manufacturers are too slow to respond

sorry off the track a tad

[Bob Simmons]

Remember this statement old buddy. i think its the one your refering to.:eek:
.................................................. .................................................. ...
Note: its all good stuff. Dreaming

about this kind of stuff is what got us this far. Knowing what we know now,

helps us understand pictures and ideas like this don’t mean a thing, unless he

was flying it around in the sky to prove it works. My opinion.
.................................................. .................................................. ....






Just 'cause it hasn't been done or isn't practical doesn't mean it can't be done. Look at computerized toasters (No, not the Toyota Scion!)! I don't see where they accomplish anything, but lots of people buy them!!

[robertstodaro]

Hummmmmmmmm

[Bob Simmons]

I stand by my opinion of the gyro backpack and my (understanding) of the dynamics of a motorized gyro.

all in all...............I assure you that the picture is a touched up (made up)dream of another inventor. God bless him. Even the new double bladed mini helicopter has a tri-pod frame to support the weight and it is less complicated.

Gee Robert, if you know something, come on out with it and educate me. your last picture is basic cut and paste. By the way.....do you fly a gyro?

Robert, old buddy, this is all i'm going to say about this. love ya man.


Hummmmmmmmm

[mgber]

let me clarify the frame. this is like a gyrobee w/o keel tube, w/ you in a standing position,straped to the mast (like tripod w/wheels, inside square created by pilot and prop/motor(absolute minimum footprint w/o rotors)). Because the bee has most heavy components on mast, balance not a large problem. vectored (semi-ducted kind of thing) thrust and a 2 axis hub (front-back,side side) cleares up any turning issues. The idea is to condense the craft by removing large parts you don't absolutly need and can work arround(namely keel and wide landing gear), making it as small as phyisicly possiable in footprint. It mostly just looks like a backpack(that is the only reason I call is one. Otherwise it is entirely conventional)

[robertstodaro]

Bob S. Do I fly a gyro!?!?!? Wow brother, that's a cold thing to say.

Sounds like somthing I might say!

Of course the pic is a fake, any one who would try to fly somthing like that is automatically in the running for a Darwin award. and this all the ink I'll waste on it! love ya man,

My gyro is listed for sale at www.craigslist.com , mostly for free publicity for the club.

[Joe Pires]

At SX days somebody was talking about launching a Powered Paraglider by standing on a flatbed trailer and having it tow you. Once in the air hit your release and gun it. I suspect if you could do your back pack idea at all it would need to be launched this way in order to get your rotors up to speed. The pusher prop might then be enough to slow the decay of your decent to stretch airtime.

but on the other hand i clearly dont know my butt from an redneck hot tub.

[Cobra Doc]

Bob, all I was saying in #13 is "Why not?". The people most likely to accomplish the impossible are the ones that don't know it's impossible. Unfortunatly for Michael, he already asked and now knows it's impossible. Like I used to tell my girlfriends "If you really don't want to know the truth, don't ask!!" What would have happed if Bell told Edison the lightbulb was impossible? We would have to change the candle in the computer monitor every single day, that's what! I haven't figured out how the hard drive flashy light would work, yet.

[mgber]

once again there would be WHEELS for take-off and landing on a tripod-like talidrager

[mgber]

only thoes who will risk going too far can possiably find out how far one can go-T.S.Eliot

[giro5]

Hey don't you guys have a vortech catalog. The MEG-2HX is a helicopter version. For only 29.95 you can get a CD-ROM with construction prints, hover test video. photos etc. Just order item # XCD2025 or order the kit for $12,995. Why have a gyro when you can have a manpack helicopter!

[Cobra Doc]

Michael, ignore everyone that said it can't be done and go build one.

[Friendly]

Michael
I have a video of one flying in ground effect with two opposing rotors. I will try to find it, but I have to leave for work so it maybe a couple of days before I can even find it. It was barley flying in ground effect.

[mgber]

Michael, ignore everyone that said it can't be done and go build one.
I plan too. and I am not meaning a helicopter, thoes already exist (Pentacost is one u.s. military example)

[Bob Simmons]

draw us a picture of this back pack motorized gyro that has a tripod and wheels. here's a magical question for you: would you be suspended in the backpack and only stand on the tripod/wheels during take off and landing? hey old buddy....... you might as well put a seat on it if your going to go through all the trouble of putting everything else on it. note : it's not really a back pack gyro with all that you have mentioned to make this idea work.

it would be known as the tripod gyro with wheels that you strap into.:eek: Hmmmmm? keep the dream going. love you man:)

PS. LOOK INTO THE TRACTOR GYRO.........................its close to what i understand you are trying to say.


once again there would be WHEELS for take-off and landing on a tripod-like talidrager

[Friendly]

Michael
I found the video. It was named hubschraubman. You might be able to do a search or give me you email and I will email the video to you

[dragonflyerthom]

Bob

It seems that no matter what you say, it will not dissuade him from his idea. Talk to the hand if you know what I mean.

Thom

[mgber]

draw us a picture of this back pack motorized gyro that has a tripod and wheels. here's a magical question for you: would you be suspended in the backpack and only stand on the tripod/wheels during take off and landing? hey old buddy....... you might as well put a seat on it if your going to go through all the trouble of putting everything else on it. note : it's not really a back pack gyro with all that you have mentioned to make this idea work.

it would be known as the tripod gyro with wheels that you strap into.:eek: Hmmmmm? keep the dream going. love you man:)

PS. LOOK INTO THE TRACTOR GYRO.........................its close to what i understand you are trying to say.
the term backpack is only by looks. you would seem to be suspended to bystanders. this is almost exactly what I was thinking. will work on pic

[Master Roda]

This is something synonymous to strapping yourself to a rocket.

What happens when your going say 65 MPH? Your legs dangle behind you? What then? All that hardware to keep your body in the direct path of bugs and birds?

TRY SKYDIVING!

Jon

[scott heger]

Even if.... you could get the blades spun up with out damage...

Even if.... you could take off and fly it....

Even if.... you could land it.....


There is no way in hell you could get the blades stopped (I really doubt you could get them rotated to flight speed or started either)once you touched earth again without bending them up. There is way too much arm movement and energy involved to be supported by a persons legs.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH

[Bob Simmons]

Thanks Scott, Man......... he's a hard one to love and understand. :o


Even if.... you could get the blades spun up with out damage...

Even if.... you could take off and fly it....

Even if.... you could land it.....


There is no way in hell you could get the blades stopped (I really doubt you could get them rotated to flight speed or started either)once you touched earth again without bending them up. There is way too much arm movement and energy involved to be supported by a persons legs.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH

[Cobra Doc]

Why do I picture a Bee without a seat?

[mgber]

picture a bee w/o a keel tube (w/ (bike-like seat and modified mains)

[Bruno]

it has been proven by

osha that you can only last a short amount of time in this harness like this

before you die from poor circulation of blood ( it becomes poison to the

body). the same thing happens to a person that has been in a cave-in. it

cuts the blood off and poisons the person when the weight is removed from

the body and the blood re-circulates.

How come hang gliders can fly for hours without experiencing this? They also hang suspended in a harness.

mike, it all has to do with how much weight your trying to pick up that is strapped in to this gyro back pack. it also has to do with how much weight a pilot can hold up and control.
The pilot does not really have to carry a lot of weight on his back. Google for "foot launched powered hang glider" and you will see how those guys have solved the issue. It's a pretty neat trick -- all the heavy parts are carried on what is a kind of a mini-trailer behind the pilot.

In effect, you'd only have to carry the mast and the rotor. And, once the rotor is spinning at a notable speed, it supports itself. No weight.

The basic backpack gyro would thus have a hang-glider-style triangle with a rotor-head on the apex. The pilot would also hang from the apex in a harness.

He'd wear a backpack that contains the engine, prop, tank, keel, rudder and h-stab. The 'backpack' would rest on a pair of wheels or skids. Hang gliders use retractable wheels/skids, too, so that they have a more aerodynamic package in flight.

They land in a flare very similar to a gyro landing flare, practicaly into a spot -- maybe do a few forward steps.

I am not saying this is truly a feasible layout for a gyro -- I just don't know enough to claim anything, but I think it's worth thinking about.

See the picture of the foot-launched powered hang-glider layout and think about it.

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/7377/doodlebugstandingml5.th.jpg (http://img63.imageshack.us/my.php?image=doodlebugstandingml5.jpg)

[Bruno]

Here's a picture of another model -- just the 'backpack' part containing the engine, prop, tank and retractable 'legs' with wheels. Note that the prop is folded. Many powered hang-gliders use folding props, because they mostly use power to take off and climb. Once they are at a sufficient attitude and start catchnig thermals, they switch the engine off and glide.

http://img490.imageshack.us/img490/528/img1351webof8.th.jpg (http://img490.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1351webof8.jpg)

[Bruno]

Here's a picture of this other model flying:

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/74/p1250008webyn8.th.jpg (http://img19.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p1250008webyn8.jpg)

[ruxpin76]

How about giving the pilot some off-road rollerblades (yes, they exist), and turn his/her legs into the landing gear? He or she would still have to be a daredevil/suicidal to try it, but I know I'd consider it... :)

[Bruno]

How about giving the pilot some off-road rollerblades (yes, they exist), and turn his/her legs into the landing gear? He or she would still have to be a daredevil/suicidal to try it, but I know I'd consider it... :)

Pilot's legs are a much better landing gear than wheels for rough terrain -- provided he flares properly. A good flare meand landing within 2-3 steps. The support legs help here, exerting drag. If the pilot has to run on landing, he has botched it. Landing a powered hang glider is generally considered easier than landing an ordinary hang-glider.

[Bruno]

Two illustrative clips of foot-launched powered hang-glider take off.

You can see the 'trailer' with the engine and the prop clearly, and the way it is supported by skid legs (which retract in flight).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiFkJf6IKLg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r03g2ZDs0lY&NR=1

[gyroguy]

The backpack gyro is an interesting concept. It may even be possible.

A few years ago, a Japanese company brought out a backpack helicopter, the GEN H-4. It had contra-rotating rotorblades for torque cancellation and four (4) two-stroke engines. Total horsepower, as I recollect, was 40 horsepower. I have photos of it being demonstrated, in hover mode, at Oshkosh. It was not truly "backpack" as it had a tripod with a small seat, and the engines/reduction drive/rotorblade unit above the pilot's head. The demo pilot had learned to fly it w/o helicopter flight instruction in a very short period of time. It was light enough to qualify as an ultralight, as I remember. It was an impressive engineering achievement.

In the early 80s, when what we call "ultralights" today were called powered hang gliders, there was an FAA requirement to demonstrate foot-launching capability. I've done this... with a good headwind... and less good sense than I would have admitted at the time. The takeoffs and landings were stressful but possible. What is possible for a fixed-wing powered hang glider might also be possible for a gyroplane.

FYI, there are currently foot-launched powered parachutes that I've seen fly. The ones I saw had cute little backpack 20-horse engines.

So far we have back-pack and/or foot-launched fixed-wing hang gliders, helicopters, and powered parachutes. Why NOT gyros? Instead of making the assumption that a backpack, foot-launched gyro is impossible, let's consider what would have to be done to make this a reality.

It's easy to tear down the idea, but much harder to look at it and say that maybe this idea could be made to work. Even if you would not want to pilot a backpack gyro with foot-launch capability, are there things we could learn from the exercise of designing one that might have a chance to work?

[Bruno]

In the early 80s, when what we call "ultralights" today were called powered hang gliders, there was an FAA requirement to demonstrate foot-launching capability. I've done this... with a good headwind... and less good sense than I would have admitted at the time. The takeoffs and landings were stressful but possible.
The modern foot-launched powered hang-glider is a much more practical machine. The British Doodlebug, in which you sit in supine position, rather than lying prone, is even a fairly practical fly-and-camp proposition if your camping is totally basic. It has a (very small) baggage space.

Instead of making the assumption that a backpack, foot-launched gyro is impossible, let's consider what would have to be done to make this a reality.

It's easy to tear down the idea, but much harder to look at it and say that maybe this idea could be made to work. Even if you would not want to pilot a backpack gyro with foot-launch capability, are there things we could learn from the exercise of designing one that might have a chance to work?
Agreed. Nothing practical may come out of the exercise in the end, but we'll be a bit wiser.

[Ralph]

If you have ever seen the mast of a conventional gyro that has experienced a major rotor strike or high-speed flap, you would see the problem. The amount of energy stored in a set of spinning gyro blades is awesome. If it would bend a mast, your back would be broken like a rotten stick. I am very high on light-weight gyros, but something other than your body has to absorb all that energy when something goes wrong.

Ralph

[Bruno]

If you have ever seen the mast of a conventional gyro that has experienced a major rotor strike or high-speed flap, you would see the problem. The amount of energy stored in a set of spinning gyro blades is awesome. If it would bend a mast, your back would be broken like a rotten stick. I am very high on light-weight gyros, but something other than your body has to absorb all that energy when something goes wrong.

Ralph

Please note the setup I am proposing as food for thought -- that of the foot-launched powered hang glider. The wing has no fixed, solid connection to the pilot.

What the pilot is directly connected to is a harness containing the engine and the prop. The pilot and the harness hang suspended by special belts from the apex of the control triangle.

The forces you are talking about would not be transferred directly to the pilot's body.

Imagine the hang glider control triangle as playing the role of the gyro mast, with the rotor head at the apex instead of the wing and you get the rough idea.

[Sita]

The pictures shown by SamL are from the Danish engineer Vincent Seremet.
For Bob Simmon's info,Mr. Seremet never applied for a patent and he did test fly them.

The first two pictures are from a rocket (!!) powered version and the last picture was test flown towed by a car.

It probably all boils down to what one expect from a back-pack gyro.
If you like to fly with 60 mph for a couple of hours than the back-pack gyro is probably not a good idea.
If it's used for slow flying for short duration,I don't see why it would not be possible.
Most people seem to think that a 20 ft+ rotor is needed for ANY gyro.
The WW II Haffner Rotachute,from which Bensen took his idea for his line of gyrocopters,was succesfuly flying on a lot less than a 20 ft rotor.
There is a video of one of the Russian members showing a back-pack gyroglider towed behind a car flying just fine.

[Rotor Rooter]

Here is another backpack helicopter, which might not have been mentioned.

http://www.unicopter.com/Backpack_George_Sablier.gif

[Jens]

Here is another backpack helicopter....[/IMG]
It is not a backpack helicopter.... it's a sidepack helicopter :D

But it looks quite good.

[Bruno]

It is not a backpack helicopter.... it's a sidepack helicopter :D

But it looks quite good.

Looks like an inverted outboard boat engine. Maybe that's how a backpack helicopter assembly should look...

[Jens]

Looks like an inverted outboard boat engine. Maybe that's how a backpack helicopter assembly should look...
You might be quite right.

A single fixed rotor is uncontrolable - almost.
We need counter rotating rotors.

2 x 20hp aircooled outboard engines might be a way to go.
But 20hp aircooled outboard engines... does they excist?

With 1 engine on each side we get the COG correct - right under center of rotor - and then ad a simple 3 legs landing gear..... :first:

[Rotor Rooter]

Jens,

Two engines might provide a level of safety, due to redundancy.
~ alternatively ~
perhaps the disk loading would be too great for one engine and the craft might enter and remain in a vortex ring state.
:noidea:


Dave

[karlbamforth]

And if one engine stops it doubles up as a pilot blender, cool, 2 uses in one. :)

[Jens]

And if one engine stops it doubles up as a pilot blender, cool, 2 uses in one. :)
Make no sense to me.

There are already build workable rotor crafts of this type with 1 as well as 4 engines.
If used as Franz Schoefman does, it is the most safe rotor craft in the world - I think.

[brett s]

Any rotorcraft that uses your legs as landing gear & has spinning blades right over your head has a long ways to go before being labeled as the "most safe rotor craft in the world".

One slip on uneven ground or wet grass can mean death depending on how lucky you are.

Or for that matter, even a power loss if you drop enough to collapse your legs & tip over - which might not be very far with the weight of it on your back.

[Jens]

I totally agree, brett.
But I have NEVER labelled that type of rotor craft the "most safe rotor craft in the world". Read last line in my post #51.

If you build from the following rules and use it that way, you can have the most safe rotor craft in the world - I think:

1. Coaxial is almost the only way to go.
2. COG of machine and COG of body has to be in line with rotor C/L.
3. A landing gear on machine combined with using ones legs.
4. Fly low and slow – as Franz Schoefman.
__________________________________________________ ______

I know very well how much back machine it is funny to have on your back.
I have had hundreds of starts and landings with a ‘backpack machine’, and I just test flew my new machine this Sunday in Denmark.
Dry weight of my old homebuilt machine was 30 kg. The new kit build machine 24 kg, and with fuel 30 kg, and that’s enough.
I totally agree that twice the weight on your back and 2 spinning props/rotors on top is very dangerous and a HUGE design flop.

Here is a picture taken yesterday here in Norway, of my new machine and my not so new body :) :

(More pictures: http://www.flyvglider.dk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=256&PN=1&TPN=1 )

[Rotor Rooter]

Jens, nice pictures.


I wonder what the weight and safety situation might be if the back-pack consisted of a couple of side-by-side rotors (large light propellers) c/w electric motors?

The 'rotors' could be guarded and the battery-pack might be hanging from the back-pack, so that it landed first and behind the pilot.


Dave

[Jens]

Dave,

Only the Franz Schoefman and the Gen-4 are realy working!
So stay very close to their design - I suggest.

Schoefman with 28 hp, is doing it MUCH better than the Solo Trek with 100 hp - from what I know and have seen.

[Rotor Rooter]

Jens, Your point are good ones.

However, the Solo Trek is not a good example of the side-by-side configuration.

Is is generally believed that the side-by-side has the greatest thrust to power ratio of all configurations. Of course, the additional structural members etc. will reduce this advantage.


The following drawing may be of interest.
http://www.unicopter.com/Configurations.gif

Dave

[DrKev]

Don't know if this thread is vstill active, but found this on youtube.

Backpack gyro in action:

‪Exlusive Demo‬‏ - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1q01qRDXwA)

[Wiplash]

That guy is either nuts or has nuts the size of bowling balls...

[Bruno]

Both. And may have been fueled by a dram or two of vodka.

Nevertheless, a fascinating exercise.

[BobK]

Ok Ok so I got here a little late...

I would have loved a RRPM gauger, AoA indicator, and a strain (weight) scale on the rope. Where's the data when someone else did the experiment dammit! If it were my lab I'd get a big ol fat stinkin F.. For Fly? ;-) But if we're talking light, why not make the birotor frame out of a pair of airfoil shaped arches. It might be the first time a frame for a gyro wasn't just weight & drag. Sure it's got to weigh something, but what if it created high speed lift to unload & feather the rotors? What if the rotors could be feathered to differential speed & reach across the wind with differential speed converted to thrust (AC or pulsed E-motors). In the video do you think the stick was on the right for Mr. Righty or to aid in differential of lift from advancing vs. retreating blade lift? I sort of like the shock unicycle wheel with 4 retractable legs to aid in tip over (2 in the front attached to the canard & one from each rotor hub). Any flared landing, slow with zero forward speed would foot land fine, unicycles in a cross wind somewhat more touchy. Automatic adaptive redundant control with ultralight weight in mind completely feasible. Not a cheap Ipad app, but if there are a lot of these ultra light flying bikes, the control has UHF/FRS airborne intranet ATC or I'll stay on the safe ground & drawing board for now thank you. And I can say two arches make a pretty good kite in low to moderate winds (no rotors, 3 string). Models shows PoC, but full size changes ideas and the future of flight.