Gyros in IFR and/or control failures?

[Blll]

Hi all...


Just a quick question here...havent even really thought it through myself...but here it goes....

Okay, in fixed wing, if your flying along and you end up where you cant see ANYTHING (horizon, stars, houses, ground, sky etc etc).....its pretty bad news...

You then have to use instruments such as your gyro's as reference points so you can keep flying straight and level....otherwise, if you fly by the seat your pants before you know it your flying upside down,backwards, and sideways without even knowing it ....ala John Kennedy Junior...

Now, is the same true for a gyro? And lets assume that if your in a gyro and all of sudden you loose all visibility your allowed to do something like lock the stick, or set the throttle at certain setting (or whatever procedure there is that might allow you continue to automatically (by the physics) fly straight and level and stable)...

I guess the short question is.....is/can a gyro be more "automatically" stable without gyro instrumentation in referenceless flight than a fixed wing? And lets not worry about flying into other craft or mountainsides for this dicussion...

The other question involves controls....loose control of most any control surface on an airplane and can things get pretty bad....is the same as true for a gyro....or if you can just say for example control the thottle can you have a chance at decent landing? I guess how the controls fail might be a factor...jammed vs broken and free etc etc....

take care

Blll

[Chuck Roberg]

If,,, I were flying along and suddenly lost site of the ground. And I know it's VFR lower. I would pull back the throttle to about 4000 rpm on my engine. Keep the stick and rudder centered and come back on the stick to maintain about 40 mph. I would then ride the gyro down.

With less power the gyro wil be more stable in it's descent so you shouldn't get into any unusual additudes. When you come out at the bottom (hopefuly before contacting the ground). I would add power and continue flying to a safe landing spot. After I was safely on the ground I would ask myself "What the hell was I doing up there"

No, I would not try to continue flying IFR in a gyro not equiped for it. But I think your chances of coming down safely are better in a gyro than a fixed wind.

As far as controls. Loss of rudder is no big problem. Unless it's stuck one way or the other. But usally a control cable will break. In that case the rudder will align its self with the slipstream.

Loss of throttle. Well if it breaks and you have no power your landing wil be sooner than you expected. If it breaks and you have power. I'd fly back to the airport. Line up with the runway. Flip the engine kill switch and land normally.

If your control stick fails in any way then you have a big problem. This would depend on the senario and how your gyro is set up as to how well you might fare.

[KenSandyEggo]

I left my passenger stick in. That way, if something happens to the main stick, I can reach over and still fly the thing with the right stick.

[Chuck Roberg]

One of our past club members had a S/S Air Command. He had an overhead stick installed just in case anything happened to the gyro's controls. He figured with the overhead stick he would at least have a chance to get it back on the ground in one piece.

I don't know if he ever tried landing just using the overhead stick. Maybe Tom Milton would know.

[scott heger]

If you continue to fly a aircraft/gyro (that can basically hover) into IFR conditions, you dont deserve to come out alive for being so stupid. Now I know this seems harsh. As a pilot, if you can't plan ahead enough to avoid such conditions, and plan for a contingency(like landing, at a airport or not), then you may wish to find another less complex sport or hobby. This also goes for flying "over the top".
I have challanged four different 3,000 hour plus commercial helicopter pilots I know to fly ONE MINUTE with their eyes closed in a straight line without me taking over the controls of the helicopter before rolling it over or going in circles. None of them could do it. I would not depend on my skills as a weekend pilot to be much help in true IFR.
Now all you two place gyro owners, tell me that it is possible to fly eyes closed (like IFR), and that is different than helicopters, but I can't see that much of a difference.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca SportCopter N86SH

[KenSandyEggo]

Scott, I'll tell you anything you want to hear.....er.....read. I flew for 20 minutes with my eyes closed.......of course, Demetra's older son, an ex-military heli-pilot, had the right stick.

[Mike Jackson]

Interesting topic. I don't think Blll is trying to be tagged as irresponsible or dumb for the hypothetical IMC situation. I read his question as, is there a flight mode one could "set up", stick fixed or free, which is safe, or at least predictable, allowing let down - recovering (hopefully) if VMC is obtained and enough altitude remains to recover to a "normal" flight condition?

Remember reading about the "old guys" getting trapped above a cloud deck or "inadvertently" IMC? What did they do? A predicable spin - full aft stick, full rudder, and some/idle engine rpm.

I think Blll wants to know - how 'bout a predictable flight mode in the gyro (no gyro - no pun intended)? Full aft stick? Throttle less than sustained flt RPM? What's the spiral mode like full aft stick and laterally centered - positive, neutral or negative? Do you "bury the nose" full aft stick, increase airspeed, and screw yourself into the ground?

Whattyathink?

Mike

[scott heger]

Ok, I stand corrected, Im sure Kenny J, in the middle of a airborne gyro dogfight over Krakastan, could fly eyes closed while shooting down several Migs with a BB gun. For the rest of us however it would be difficult to fly that way.

Steve, I know of NO IFR gyros in the U.S. , make your SportCopter the first.

Mike I was not slamming Bill. Just guys that fly around ( as you put it), and get trapped above clouds overhead show some poor piloting skills and decision making. There is no reason to get trapped in a slow moving gyro above clouds on a recreational flight. Bill's question is fair, and my answer is blunt. I don't want my life dependant on a piece of yarn waving around in the wind as I can't see where I'm going......

On the other hand, I heard Kenny J, just wets his middle finger(yeah that one) and sticks it out into the cloud to find his way.....what a pilot!!!


For all you other old salts that fly a two place, let us know if you can fly without visual reference with a safety pilot onboard. My best "guess" for getting out of a situation like that would be to chop power and get to near zero airspeed, to prevent any chance of climb, and center the stick. I don't like Chuck's idea of flying 40 MPH, because you could get your self into a climb/unusual additude too easily. Also by going slow you "fall" out of the bottom quicker, 40 MPH being too close to best floating /distance speed which is not good. The faster your out the bottom, the better your chances.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca SportCopter N86SH

[barnstorm2]

Though I don't have enough 'old salt' to fill one of the paper do-dads I get with my Wendy's French fries :( I have had some experience flying blind.

I have 2.5 hours night time flight duel and about 5 min. eyes-closed time duel daytime with instructor. :eek:

As I have read through the posts I have been reflecting on my own less than 100 hours of experience.

I would have to agree that BLLL was speaking hypothetically and it is good to talk about these issues without calling names.

I think it is possible to be a careful pilot and still get into unexpected circumstances even if you fully prepared for a flight.

I have many years experience as a boat owner and I can tell you from personal experience that non-forecasted ground fog can come out of NOWHERE in just minutes. And that even in a 2-dimential craft (boat) special disorientation can happen to the best of us very quickly. Discussing and thinking about the actions you would take can save your life.

In my own UL high-thrust line gyro, I know the operating parameters by the sound and feel of the craft. This would not protect me from special disorientation but at lest it is a help. I know that my craft is ground-adjustable trimmed for 6000rpm and that 5500 will put me in a slow decent ( on 50F and up to 80F days ). So that would be of some use.

After a few minutes of this kind of flight I think my gyro would still be right-side-up but I’ll bet I would be flying in circles.

After flying some of the CLT machines with tall tails I think that they would fare much better, especially if the pilot had done some night flight and or “IFR” practice in the machine.

To add another hypothetical twist… I am a motorcyclist that wears contact lenses. On more than once I have had a contact lenses blow out. I just state this to put the concept out there that the unexpected can put you in IFR. If it was expected or predictable THEN you are an idiot, but discussing how to deal with the unexpected I think is good sense.

I think it is quite cool that KJ has actually practiced this. :cool:

[Udi]

Experimental aircraft are not allowed to fly under IFR conditions or at night.

CFR 14 Part 91.319 Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating limitations.



(a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate—

(1) For other than the purpose for which the certificate was issued; or

(2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.

(b) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate outside of an area assigned by the Administrator until it is shown that—

(1) The aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all the maneuvers to be executed; and

(2) The aircraft has no hazardous operating characteristics or design features.

(c) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a congested airway. The Administrator may issue special operating limitations for particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and landings to be conducted over a densely populated area or in a congested airway, in accordance with terms and conditions specified in the authorization in the interest of safety in air commerce.

(d) Each person operating an aircraft that has an experimental certificate shall—

(1) Advise each person carried of the experimental nature of the aircraft;

(2) Operate under VFR, day only, unless otherwise specifically authorized by the Administrator; and

(3) Notify the control tower of the experimental nature of the aircraft when operating the aircraft into or out of airports with operating control towers.

(e) The Administrator may prescribe additional limitations that the Administrator considers necessary, including limitations on the persons that may be carried in the aircraft.



Udi-

[KenSandyEggo]

Udi, you're quoting some pretty stale regs. Experimentals are no longer prohibited from flying over populated areas or in congested airways. Some pilot's older Operating Limitations may still have these limitations, but it is an easy procedure to have your OLs updated and re-written through boiler-plate forms, completely through the mail. Just contact your friendly FSDO. The update will also automatically allow major modifications with absolutely no notification required to the FAA. One merely flies off 5 hours I believe, in their non-congested area and then logs that the modification did not negatively affect the flight characteristics of the craft. This would include engine, prop, rotorblade and any other component changes.

I have absolutely no limitations as to night flying, because I was "authorized by the Administrator" by virtue of conducting night flights with an instructor (required for the rotorcraft rating) and getting signed off. A pilot flying an experimental craft legally with a FW ticket who was authorized to fly FWs at night, would also be legal to fly any experimental at night. The limitations (or freedoms) on one's ticket do not change when hopping into an experimental aircraft.

Funny thing here about calling in as an "experimental" to control towers. I know it's required by the FARS, but absolutely no one in this area does it (southern, southern California). I'll hear it about once a year on the radio and you can bet it's someone visiting from another area. Sometimes custom takes over and no one seems to care. I call in as "gyroplane" or "gyrocopter" and all the experimentals around here just call in with their "brand" name......Quickie, E-Z, Air-Camper, Lancair etc.

O.K., before I get called on it, I sometimes call in as "gyrocopter" when going into fields other than my own to avoid confusion. When calling in as "gyroplane," the word "gyro" usually does not click into the controller's brain. They're expecting to see a "plane." I was on short final at a neighboring airport after calling in and reporting my position as "gyroplane" several times. Just as I'm about to land, the controller yells out, "You didn't tell us you were a helicopter." I told her I wan't a helicopter, I was a gyroplane. I've also been told to land on a helipad that's enclosed with a chain-link fence. I could probably get in, but no way would I be able to get out except with a crane to lift me back over the fence.

[Gary_in_Orygun]

Experimental gyros fly at night too, as long as they are configured for night flight (position lights, landing light). How else can anyone get their gyro rating? You need 3 hours night cross country and 10 takeoff/landings at night to get your Private/Gyro.

[KenSandyEggo]

You really crack me up, Ken, glad you're here.
S

Where? :confused:

[KenSandyEggo]

What way? Posts? (Just pulling your leg, Steven) :D

[Udi]

Udi, you're quoting some pretty stale regs.

The regs are not stale, but I was interpreting them incorrectly. 91.319 (d)(2)

(d) Each person operating an aircraft that has an experimental certificate shall—

(2) Operate under VFR, day only, unless otherwise specifically authorized by the Administrator

means that your Experimental Aircraft Operating Limitations must state that your aircraft is approved for night flying, if you want to fly at night, and for IFR flying, if you want to fly IFR. Ken, would you check your gyro's OL and tell us if it is approved for night flying? This, by the way, is no different from any certificated aircraft.

Udi-

[KenSandyEggo]

Udi, if OLs still contain wording relative to congested airways and populated areas, they are stale. Maybe the original FARs haven't been updated, but I'm sure the reg has been somewhere along the line with a published revision. They would had to have been.

I'll get mine today and we'll see about the "approved for night flying" as to the craft. I don't recall. I'm thinking that the OLs do not have to specify it, but the craft in general has to meet the lighting requirements. To muddle it more, I believe that the lights do not have to be approved lights, that we can use lighting from the friendly Pep Boys or NAPA.

[eruttan]

I belive when you apply for your certificates with a DAR you ask to have the IFR part added at that time. When the inspection comes no one is suprised.

I belive that is when the OL has the IFR and night stuff added.

If you dont have the night IFR OL instruction added and the maching qualifys i belive you just ask for it and it is given.

[Udi]

Right on eruttan!

[scott heger]

My O.L.'s approve night gyro flying after Phase 1 has been completed(initial 40 hours). They are from 1999. However I really don't think night flying in a 2 stroke gyro is all that safe and probably have under 10 hours doing it.

Scott heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca SportCopter N86SH

[KenSandyEggo]

True to form, I was at the airport and forgot my OLs. Too busy yakking with the other "rats."

[barnstorm2]

Do I have to have my lights on for the inital inspection or can I just bolt them on anytime?

[Udi]

The inspector will look to see if your gyro is equipped with everything that is required for night flying, as per the FARs, before he can approve the gyro for night flying:

91.205 (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=86478151481c3e9e077a709e22e47112&rgn=div5&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.3.10&idno=14#14:2.0.1.3.10.3.7.3)

and

91.507 (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=86478151481c3e9e077a709e22e47112&rgn=div5&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.3.10&idno=14#14:2.0.1.3.10.6.7.4)

Udi :cool:

[Gary_in_Orygun]

My Operating Limitations says:

4. After completion of phase I flight testing, unless appropriately equiped for night and/or instrument flight as listed in FAR 95.201 (b through e), this aircraft is to be operated under day only VFR.

Nothing here says that I can't bolt the lights on after the initial inspection. I suppose the only thing you have to worry about is what kind of log entry and statement needs to be made to state that the machine is still airworthy.

[Bill Clem]

At last count, I had about 50 hours of night gyro local and cross-country flight time. Night flying is particularly attractive out West. Gone are the gusts and turbulence of the day. The air is cooler in the Summer, more stable. It's easier to see other traffic. When I had my initial inspection, I already had instrument lights (on a separate buss), nav lights, strobes and a landing light installed. So the DAR signed it off as night-capable. I often wonder about many things while flying at night. Like if the engine quits is it better to head for a lighted area with all of the associated wires or to the great black spots where there are no wires but you don't get a look at the terrain until the last few seconds. Haven't answered that one yet. I have worried from time to time about running into an unexpected cloud. Sudden IFR if you will. I have practiced solo hood flying, looking at the vertical compass card for yaw, variometer for pitch and a little of both for roll. Not ideal but it might keep me upright until I could descend or maybe even turn back. Better to practice and not need it than... well, you know. Actually, it's worked better than expected. Keeping the stick mostly centered and focussing on heading and maintaining a steady altitude has allowed me to go for 10 minutes or so. A long, long 10 minutes. Truly it would be possible to fly for a while with an artificial horizon and the other appropriate instruments but an approved IFR gyro? Nope. Just like a helicopter, it would need a 3 axis autopilot to reduce the workload. Got a spare $100,000? Two pilot IFR? Well maybe. But I doubt it.

[ToddP]

Wow Bill, 10 minutes of simulated IFR by yourself. You must be pretty certain there is no other traffic in the area. :eek:

[Caribean_gyro]

My OL said #28 when filing IFR the experimental nature of the aircraft shall be listed in the remarks section of the flight plan.

I also questioned FAA that in the original OL they said IFR permited in Phase 1?

The inspector said. If ou have an experimental jet. where you are going to test speed? Up there right so you will have to filed IFR.
Chuck P

[KenSandyEggo]

......."no person may operate a powered civil aircraft with a standard category U.S. airworthiness certificate....."

Udi, you're on dangerous ground as to interpetation when you try to quote regs for standard category U.S. airworthiness certificated airplanes and try to apply them to experimental aircraft and/or rotorcraft. Some apply and some don't. Experimentals do not have to have approved lights in their strobe or nav-light systems. When an FAR says "airplane," it does not refer to rotorcraft unless it says rotorcraft or makes a blanket statement that it applies to all aircraft. Some apply only to helicopters and some apply only to gyros and some apply to both if they say "rotorcraft." It's a can of worms, Udi, and you can't assume that a reg applies to airplanes, experimentals, helis, gyros, or rotorcraft, unless it's specified in some way. As an example, the rule for life preservers says "airplanes." As I recall, the mile limitations offshore are different for helicopters when flying over water than airplanes. We can make a career of arguing rules and regulations as to their meaning. Oftentimes you'll get several different answers to the same question from different FAA employees. They're confusing and nebulous, to say the least.

Bill, I am surprised at your lack of knowledge regarding night emergency procedures for a gyro suffering an engine failure. The black spot is preferrable to a lighted spot with all its wires (except if it's a lake). Once you determine that you're engine is not likely to restart in the approximately 10 seconds before you smack down, leave your nav-lights on and strobe if your electrical system (battery) has sufficient power. IMMEDIATELY extinguish your landing light(s). Set up your descent and aim for the darkened area. Estimate as well as you are able, under the circumstances, when you reach an altitude of approximately 40 feet AGL. Quickly turn on your landing light and look at the area below. If you don't like what you see, turn off the landing light and continue to your landing.

[Udi]

You are right Ken - experimental aircraft don’t have to abide by any rules and regulations written for "real" aircraft. You can fly with a Walmart bicycle landing light, Mickey Mouse nav lights, and orange strobes made for Halloween and sold in the Dollar store.

Just make sure you explain this to the inspector when they "ramp" you :rolleyes:

Udi :cool:

[KenSandyEggo]

You are also right, Udi. However, I value my life and fly with a 3-strobe Whelen system, Whelen nav-lights, a panel-mount radio, and a transponder and encoder, and generally all aircraft equipment, save for the Subaru engine and the experimental craft. We are discussing the FARS and what is legal for experimentals. That doesn't mean that I advocate using a bicycle landing light, Mickey Mouse nav-lights and orange strobes from the Dollar Store, but experimental drivers are free to do so if they wish and if the conditions they fly in make this gear appropriate. I wouldn't see a gyro-driver flying out of his farm strip in central Illinois and nowhere else to be using the equipment I do while flying in the San Diego area.

If you're "ramped" while using the above components and you're flying in an experimental, you will indeed be legal and the "ramp-checker" will not have a leg to stand on if he writes you up. He or she will be wrong. What would there be to explain when the gear is legal? You're using certificated aircraft standards and attempting to apply them to experimentals and assuming the experimental pilot with his unapproved equipment is doing something illegal and will have to explain it.......if I'm reading you right. If not.........never mind.

[Bill Clem]

Uh, Ken, I think that there is one exception to your interpretation. It is true that the lights and strobes don't have to be STC'ed for aircraft. My nav lights, for instance, are from Newark electronics, the strobes are Whelan aircraft strobes and I think that the landing light is from a piece of farm equipment. BUT, you still have to meet the visibility requirements. I don't have the FAR's in front of me, but the nav lights have to be visible from specified angles and for specified distances. I think (emphasis on think) that those rules apply to all aircraft operating at night. And Ken, one question... do you still have the plastic Jesus on your instrument panel?

[KenSandyEggo]

I didn't say that the lights didn't have to meet the visibility criteria, I only said that they didn't have to be approved. I believe that you may be sort of, kind of, probably, most-likely correct.

Plastic Jesus? How dare you. Everyone (almost) knows that a good Catholic (former) boy would only sport a St. Joseph statue. I had a bobble-head St. Joe up there for awhile, but with my old blades, it shook him to pieces, and just before his head fell off, he jumped out over Loveland Reservoir, not wanting to endure the shame of being shaken to death while duct-taped to a cheap, Lexan instrument panel, let alone explaining how as a saint, he didn't know that was going to happen. I instituted a search and rescue effort, but he was gone. I think that I saw some coyotes gathering near where he jumped, so I just left the area, not wanting to endure further emotional trauma to myself as the coyotes loudly crunched the plastic between their teeth, not realizing at first that St. Joe was NOT an albino gopher.

[CLS447]

Ken, I thought it was supposed to be St. Christopher (Bearer of Christ).

[KenSandyEggo]

Well, actually there were also a lot of St. Chris' in my old Chicago neighborhood on the dashes also. Many times there were both. Sometimes saints were lined up on dashboards across the whole thing. But St. Joe is kind of a patron saint of the Poles, if I recall what the nuns pounded into......I mean, taught me..

[Hognose]

Guys,

I thought I already posted this. But to encapsulate, 14 CFR 91.205 lists minimum IFR equipment. The OLs usually say you must be equipped IAW Part 91. HOWEVER, the relevant sections of 91. including 91.205, don't say that equipment must be TSO'd. SO you can fly IFR with, for example, a Dynon EFIS as your primary attitude indicator, or even a Control Vision AI on a Compaq iPaq (Yeah, I am going to trust an attitude indicator that runs on Windows... would give a whole new meaning to "computer crash" or "blue screen of death". Oh yeah). So Ken is technically correct, and he is also instinctively correct (IMHO) in not desiring to test the outside edges of legality.

In the service they say that "regulations are written in the blood of good men," and in civil aviation this is also true. A departure from the extreme conservatism of Certified/TSO'd and PMA'd aircraft and parts can be perfectly safe, but the risk should always be assessed dispassionately.

The EAA has written an excellent treatise on equipping a homebuilt for IFR:

http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/faq/Equipping%20a%20Homebuilt%20for%20IFR%20operations .html

Finally, just because a machine is LEGAL for IFR, doesn't mean it's a good idea. Many Lancairs are equipped for IFR flight and are IFR legal. That doesn't mean such as macchina nervosa is a good choice for weather flying, and the record of Lancairs in IMC is rocky. (Ditto Van's RVs. I've even seen a Pitts S-2 with IFR instrumentation -- oh yeah, I wanna fly that in hard IMC. NOT). In my family we had a known-ice-equipped plane for years, and we flew it as if that stuff wasn't there -- my plane might be equipped to fly in ice, but I am not; my brain is larger than either testicle.

cheers

-=K=-

[birdy]

Interest'n thread.
I remember when I first started fly'n I looked up to check the rotorhead for some reason and within seconds I was out of controle,dive'n to the right and gain'n speed real quick.Almost cra.ped meself.
Now,I can wach the rotorhead for alot longer in rough air,so long as I'm not think'n about fly'n. [Me ass cheeks are talk'n to me subconsios who is the REAL pilot most of the time anyway.]

I got caught in a no-visibility situation once [couldn't evan see the instruments] and it was probably the scariest few seconds I'v spent in a gyro.

I put it on screen on the Oz forum under "Flying Tails" ".Which way is up." ,if anybody is interested.