just a bunch of hot air

[StanFoster]

This hot air balloon also takes off a lot at the Paxton airport.

[StanFoster]

more hot air

[StanFoster]

Lift off to over 10000 feet. He set his personal height record on this flight. This is the same balloon I was flying my Air Command around and around in 15 mph winds. Absolutely no difference turning upwind or downwind. Just like doing a turn around a stationary point on the ground. :)

[birdy]

Stan, mate.
Just like doing a turn around a stationary point on the ground?????
I thought a balloon went with the wind??Or do your balloons fly differently in America.??

[GyroRon]

Birdy, for someone who flys everyday you should go up and practice turns holding airspeed and not using the ground to reference your turns. I think if you go up and just experiment with this you with see where your wrong on your downwind turn ideas. No offense.

[Chuck Irby]

The same here. I notice no difference in a down wind turn vs an up wind turn. Flying around the baloon in a steady wind would be the same as flying around an object on the ground if it was dead calm.

[birdy]

You are all talk'n COORDINATED turns,I'v never mentioned coordinated turns.The argument I have been on dose not include coordinated turns.

[Chuck Irby]

Hello Birdy,

Please excuse my ignorance. I don't understand what you mean by coordinated turns, and would really appreciate a discription.

[GyroRon]

Birdy the whole downwind turn topic is retarded. If you simply maintain airspeed in the turn eithe rupwind or downwind and do NOT use the ground for reference you will not go up or down in that turn. Airspeed is all it takes. It doesn't mater if you are flying a gyro or airplane or a blimp. It just takes a steady airspeed through the turn.

you work close to the ground and it is impossible for you to not use the ground as a reference while you fly. So observe your groundspeed next time you fly on a windy day and watch and see if you aren't slowing yourself down, by your automatic piloting reaction, once you turn downwind due the the build up of increased groundspeed.

It is no offense to you or anyone else Birdy, But I unlike Chuck E, I do fly gyros and I fly the piss out of them. I also fly airplanes both ultralights and bigger GA stuff. I would agree with you if I didn't know better.

[Screw]

Screw-In

I've never had any trouble with downwind turns, I know what to expect based on my airspeed.

However I have been caught with my pants down on right hand turns in a gyro.

Screw-Out

[Chuck Roberg]

Whoooo! Here we go again.

As I remember from Birdy's previous explanation. I believe he is right. As I read Ron's (and other's) explanation. I would say Ron is also right.

I believe Birdy is saying (correct me if I'm wrong) When your chasing a cow around and your 15' or so off the ground. And the cow does a quick turn or turns. You follow, cranking over on the stick in a tight turn(s). Your rotors are loaded and your trading airspeed to maintain your altitude.

I would say when you come out of the tight turn close to the ground and most likely behind the power curve. Yes, the wind direction will have an effect on the gyro. In that situation I would much rather be into the wind to be able to make up my lost airspeed.

You have to consider Birdy does not have the time to do a coordinated turn on an object which is moving and changing directions. If he tried to do coordinated turns around a cow he would probably never catch it and get it to go where he wants it.

So Birdy I'm on your side on this one. All you need is more horsepower. Then you won't have to worry about sinking as you pull out.

[Chuck Irby]

Chuck R,

In that light, I agree with you and Birdy, and, as you stated, Ron is also correct. Horses for courses, or something like that. I also see what Birdy meant by coordinated turn.

[Dean_Dolph]

Since I'm not a pilot ya'all can take what I'm about to state as Texas talk!

I've come to believe that Birdy, and all the others that have experienced a loss of altitude in a downwind turn, are correct in their assessment. They have, or can, lose altitude in a snap turn. In fact I suspect it is also possible, although less likely, to lose altitude in an upwind turn!

If my thinking is correct and what I'm about to describe happens, then it is possible.

First of all, everyone accepts (and I'm sure Birdy agrees) that in order to maintain altitude you have to maintain a certain minimum AIR speed. If for any reason the AIR speed drops below that minimum then you lose altitude

There is an inference that Birdy is referencing GROUND speed and consequently and without thinking about it, reduces throttle, which reduces his AIR speed. I don’t' think that is what is happening.

What I'm guessing happens is that, when Birdy is making a snap turn, he actually experiences a horizontal tail slide. In other words, momentarily he is traveling backwards! If this is the case then the AIR speed decays to zero, or goes negative, and he starts to descend. To make it worse, the relative wind is now flowing on top of the normally rear tilted rotor disk, which causes the rotor to slow up and lose more lift. It would be interesting, if possible, to record the air speed in a snap turn.

If I'm entirely off base then forgedda 'bout it!

[Doug Riley]

Dean, it's simpler than that. The energy needed to effect a turn is a function of the change in velocity. That is, it's a function of the number of degrees of turn you accomplish per second. More degrees per second, more energy per second (that is, power). A rapid means lots of degrees per second, hence it requires lots of power... power you may not have.

If by "snap turn" you mean leaving the fuselage flat, ruddering around and hammering the throttle to reverse direction, this has killed people in gyros in the past. The power required as function of degrees per second is the same, however, and isn't a function of upwind/downwind. The gyro is still immersed in the "wind" and does not feel it.

[Chuck Irby]

Good explanation, Doug. It was good meeting you at BD's.

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

W O W .......Ron you sure are a study in just plain ignorance.

Quote:

" But unlike Chuck E. , I do fly gyros and I fly the piss out of them. "

First off I was flying gyros long before you came to this group, however that in and of it's self really is not the point here. What possible proof do you have that I do not fly gyros?

Hot air is the perfect thread for you to post on Ron.

What really seperates you from me is your attitude toward flying Quote " and I fly the piss out of them "

For someone with your very recent exposure to the world of flying I find that attitude to be frightening. As I recall you were proud of being self taught until just recently when you got a PPL.... There is a saying in the area of aviation that I am a member of and it goes like this.

" Anyone who is self taught has an idiot for an instructor " For years I kind of thought that was a little to general and still do.

However the more you come on about your skills the more I am begenning to think there just might be some truth to that old saying.

Chuck E.

[Screw]

Screw-in

O.K. I got a couple of question after this brief statement and I'm really confused:

Steve McGowan has always been a, "Leave the rudder alone!" kinda guy. The reason he gave me was because using the rudder in flight can put you in a tail first situation in moderate winds and low airspeeds. This, of course, can kill you. I'm cool with that, and I get it.

But I don't see how it can hurt you at cruise speeds or during nose down turns. I noticed early on when I bank the cyclic to the left, step on the the left rudder, my tail goes up, my nose drops down and I turn on a dime at the given altitude. My altitude remains constant through the turn until I stop turning. I then recover from the nose down attitude with back pressure and, of course, I've lost a little altitude while regaining airspeed.

Is this dangerous? Other the flat turning with the rudder, what are some other ways in which the use of rudder while turning will bite you?

Screw-out

[StanFoster]

Guys: I felt like I threw a hand grenade in a crowded room...then got the heck out of Dodge. :D

I just posted that balloon cause it looked cool...and it reminded me of flying around that same balloon last summer. Fairly soon my dad is going up in it while I fly circles around it taking pictures.

Again...I have absolutely no doubt about this after circling that balloon last summer as it was going 15 mph. I was paying very close attention to this as I know there isnt any difference what the ground is doing below me. If that balloon could have launched in todays 35 mph. winds...I havent any doubt I would have circled and circled with ease not having to allow for downwind or upwind parts of the turn. Its just physics 101. :)

[birdy]

Thanx Doug, for saving me from telling Dean to not fly yet,until he understands autorotation.Thankfuly, I never had negative airspeed,coz I would'nt be here if I had.

Gyrochuck,mate,your spoton.[that means right in oz ]
I doubt I could execute a coordinated turn,I'v probably never done one.Cows are impulsive animals,to keep the machine IN THE RIGHT SPOT in relation to the cow,you do alot of side sliping,hanging off the power curve and impulsive,uncoordinated 90 degree turns CLOSE TO THE GROUND[20'].Of course I'm using the ground as a reference,I'm trying to miss it,and because I am close to the ground I have a good idea of all the minute altitude losses that happen.

As far as me available power gos,I have plenty,I reckon if I had more I would get in to more trouble,[push the limits too far].

And for interest sake,My ASI is'nt very accurate[not that I'm look'n at it anyway.]
I'v never had a drift indicater.[pice of string.]
And me alt meter is jammed between 100 and 200'.

Flight instruments are only of use to you if you are looki'n at them,and you can't be looki'n at them while you are looki'n at the COW on the GROUND.

[Sonnyj]

Chuck Boy I'm glad to find out that Orvil&Wilber were idots.How else could we all be havin so much fun.HMMMMMMM

[Sonnyj]

Oh yea who learned Mr. Benson how to fly a gyro.

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Sonnyj :

You mean Ron is another Orville or Wilbur Wright?

Hey, how in hell was I supposed to know that?

I was just sidetracked by his way of expressing himself I guess. :D :D

Why don't you educate me Sonnyj and tell me who "Learned " Igor Bensen to fly a gyro?

Oh well I must confess I have misjudged Ron.

I thought he was another great self taught gyro pilot like Dan Haselow was.....was being the operative word.

Sorry for the missundersatnding.

Chuck E.

[StanFoster]

Chuck: In all due respect...I am self taught and dont consider myself an idiot. I started in a Bensen and it was a nice experience gradually and carefully acquiring the feel of a gyrocopter. I then transitioned to my Air Command...and it was an equally satisfying experience. Now I have successfully transitioned to my RAF and am ecstatic with how that went.

Some of us do do things in a methodical way. I never proceeded to the next step until I was comfortable at the stage I was training myself.

An idiot doesnt ask many questions....I asked a lot both here and anyplace I could get good advice.

I dont condone self training by no means. We each are wired different, and the feeling of being relaxed went a long way in causing me to keep going to the next step.

Somehow I have done something right in my 18 forced landings to never have scratched anything... :) although I may be considered an idiot mechanic :eek:

Stan

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Stan :

Please go back and carefully read the last two sentences in my post.

I clearly stated that I do not necessarily belive the saying to be true.

I also opined that in Rons case it gives me pause to belive there may be some truth in it.

O.K.? :D

By the way he asked for it with that stupid statement that I do not fly gyros, that is why I replied in the manner I did. :D

Chuck E.

[Screw]

Screw-In,

Could someone please answer my questions I previously posted about turning, rudders, nosedown? It cocerns me because I like doing them, but I don't know if I'm asking for trouble?

Screw-Out

[StanFoster]

Chuck: I see how you meant it...and thats why I said with "all due respect"

Its hard trying to say this stuff here...it comes out stern and to the point to often...when in all reality..there are smiles behind the typing. :)

I also dont want to have anyone think I dont need training. I figure I will be in training everytime I fly. Each flight I try to have a mission to either check out some controls..or see what happens when...etc.

This forum is a LOT of my training. I read, reread...ask questions...call...there is a wealth of knowlege here. You yourself have contributeed a lot. Dont think for a minute that your posts and others didnt influence my decision to have mt RAF equipped with a stab.

[Chuck_Ellsworth]

Stan :

I have zero problems with anyone who is flexible and will have a second look at posts that seem to say something they do not.

A computer is not the best method of communicating due to no body language with the message, and more often than not we, my self included jump to the wrong conclusions..... But hey, most of the time we get it all sorted out.

On the other hand I am not all that willing to take flat out insults from anyone, in this case Ron is out to lunch posting that I don't fly gyros,,,, and as I explained flying a gyro is not all big a deal as far as I am concerned, but I do belive that the fact that I bothered to get a commercial gyroplane license in a foreign country shows that I did my best to get the highest license avaliable. And believe me it cost me a lot of money to go to Portland and do all the training and write the exams and take an FAA flight test.

Do you now understand why I told Ron to get stuffed, in so many words.

What goes around comes around.

Soon I will be off over seas again and everyone will soon forget my more agressive posts. :D :D :D

By the was I do respect you, and the work you have done on your machine, and wish you only the very best. You have every right to love "your" RAF. :D

That is what it is all about, enjoying the machine. You did a wonderful job on it.

Chuck E.

[GyroRon]

Chuck.... first off let me ask why are you still posting here? I thought we were helpless and you had better things to do with your time. Didn't you post something to the effect that you were no longer going to post here??? ;)

Chuck I have recieved instruction prior to flying gyros. Also got instruction prior to flying ultralights and Also got instruction prior to flying General Aviation aircraft. I AM self taught in water takeoffs and landing in ultralights with floats, and self taught in mild aerobatics in my Phantom ultralight.

Water landings.... yes I have had to swim once
Aerobatics in the Phantom........ knock on wood I am still here to talk about it.

The Wright brothers I am not.

[GyroRon]

Chuck when was the last time you flew in a gyro?

I know you have said you hold a commercial rating in gyroplanes. Great! that proves you know how to fly one, and have logged some hours. But my point with my comment in that post was I - as in me - fly gyros regularly and as a sport. You may also do the same but since were not neighbors I have to look at what you have posted and told us on these forums over the years and come to the conclusion that you are NOT actively flying gyros at this time. Now saying that..... Big deal right? Right, but I only made the comment because of two reasons.

Reason one, You like to pop in on these type of discussions and throw out your view points on the debate - which in most cases your very right! - which leads to reason two, which is some folks here have challenged your opinion on some topics because it appears you are NOT actively flying gyroplanes. So in a nut shell I made my comment in the post earlier today as a joke, and just like a Grumpy old SOB you took it as a jab and then went on the counter attack.

What you need Chuck E. is a time out :D

[StanFoster]

Chuck: Thanks for the comments. :)

I do love flying the RAF...but I am flexible and I know without ever being in a SparrowHawk...it has to be even better. But for now...I will fly what fits in my budget...just as long as I am comfortable doing it.

[Doug Riley]

Turning, rudders and stuff: The rudder on a gyro is not an inherently dangerous instrument. In fact, the "danger" in violent rudder-only turns is not from the rudder itself. Rather, it's the speed with which the body yaws around, especially if you get the gyro travelling tail-first for a moment. The vertical fin in this case makes the body try to yaw very quickly BACK to a nose-first position (relative to the gyro's travel through the air). If you try to execute a twirling vertical descent before you're bled off all your airspeed, you'll get a taste of this effect. Once you get through the first half-turn to a tail-first stance, the body will whip through the second half at a rate that's likely to surprise you.

When the body spins around while the stick is back, the rotor spindle performs a movement that looks like stirring a cake while running the spoon's handle around against the edge of the bowl. The rotor sees this as a huge cyclic input (twenty degrees per half body rotation if the stick is neutral, and more if it's tilted back from neutral). The rotor may not be able to swallow this much cyclic change in a very short time interval and may experience a cyclic stall ("precession stall"). This was likely the cause of the notorious crash of a KB-3 at El Mirage a couple autumns ago and the crash of Jim DiGaetano in the Exec-bodied Air Command before that. OTOH, in an ordinary twirling vertical descent with zero airspeed, this process doesn't happen fast enough to cause any problems; the rotor can keep up with the body's rotation.

Coordinated turns with rudder cannot hurt you. Steep ones may result in loss of altitude, of course.

Steve McGowan's advice is sensible. You don't need a lot of rudder input to fly a gyro, other than during takeoff. Pedal deflection on a machine with a half-height tail (Bensen, Brock, Parsons) is used mostly as an anti-torque device during the takeoff run. On a tall-tailed machine, you don't even need it then.

[Screw]

Screw-in

Thank you Doug!!!

I'm glad someone that is interested in safety is willing to respond to my questions rather than defend thier virginity!

Based on your post Doug, a 0 airspeed vertical desent while spinning or twirling on the yaw axis, I take it the cyclic should be in a neutral position allowing a nose down attitude while exicuting this manuever?

Yes Chuck, I still love you, I just wish you would respond to post that are not an attack on you. :D

Screw-out

[Doug Riley]

John: A twirling vertical descent (sometimes called a "falling leaf" or a flat spin, although it's unlike a fixed-wing spin) is an intermediate aerobatic maneuver that's not part of the basic process of flying a gyro. Beginner pilots ought to steer clear of it in their first 100 or so hours. It's best to learn it by taking some dual from an instructor willing to train you in gyro aerobatics.

(These maneuvers have resulted in "mush-in" crashes even for experienced pilots. Certain gyros with lots of side area (like the Air and Space) can't tolerate uncoordinated flight and should never be put through this kind of maneuver by anyone.)

That said, this maneuver is an ordinary vertical descent, just with a twist. A pitch-stable gyro does not want to stay in a vertical descent (behind the power curve) without a continual application of stick back pressure. The minute you relax back pressure, the gyro will nose out of the vertical descent and try to return to its trimmed airspeed. So, no, you don't let the nose drop; you hold back pressure. This means that the spindle is tipped back as you turn and you can't "stir the cake" too fast or you'll give your rotor indigestion. A touch of side-stick toward the outside of the turn is also sometimes required (again, a stable gyro doesn't like these antics and is continually trying to return to straight, trimmed flight).

Like any other vertical descent, this maneuver must be terminated at an altitude that will allow recovery in the event of engine failure. This means 200 feet in a light one-place and God knows how high in a half-ton unit.

[Dean_Dolph]

Birdy, I'm not sure where you got the idea that I don't understand autorotation. You don't have to be a pilot to understand the physics.

What I was trying to do was understand and offer a possible explanation of what you, and others, may actually be experiencing and what our experts are saying can't be. And I agree with what the experts are saying as far as the gyro will not descend as long as the air speed is above minimum needed to maintain altitude. It is obvious that your airspeed in the turn gets below the minimum needed to hold altitude. You say you have plenty of power so I say use it!

Doug was correct in stating the definition of a snap turn. I used that since it was the extreme case of what I was trying to explain. I did not understand the full ramifications but I'm glad I brought it up since I learned something.

I may have also been outright wrong when I stated that the airflow on top of the rotors would cause it to slow up. In the last issue of the PRA magazine that I received this week, Greg Gremminger is suggesting this is a fallacy. And while that may be the case, I have a hard time seeing how the lift could not be affected with the reverse airflow thru the rotor.

Greg states that autorotation can be maintained with the rotor upside down although maybe not as effectively with airflow from above. I'm having a difficult time understanding how the driven portion of the rotor would react the same way to air flow from above as air flow from below. I haven't given it much thought yet (slow thinker!) since I only read the article last night. I'm more than a little lazy so maybe one of you guys will explain it too me.

[birdy]

Dean mate,I gess I assumed you didn't understand autorotation when you said I fly with negative airspeed.
There are only two situations I can think of where you could safly fly with negative airspeed,but only for a moment.
The only time I use any rudder in a rip/snap turn is when in the inertia hover when there is no airspeed for the fin or swing from the centerifical force of the turn to control yaw.
I may drift backwards slightly if I don't shedd all airspeed before I level to the hover,giving some negative airspeed,but only for a moment.
This is definatly not negative airflow on the rotor,the rotor is flat.
The only other time you could get away negitave airspeed is in a virtical decent,behind the power curve.This wont last long,the rudder/fin will soon swing the machine around into the airflow again.But the rotors still don't have negative airflow because you are going down faster than you will go backwards,keeping the airflow positive.
I know it's all logical,just thought it might answer your last post.

[Greg Mitchell]

It's so much easier to understand when you can see it in your head. Birdy, you sure paint a picture.....I still wanna see that video, I reckon it'll get the most wear and tear. Paint another... cause it just keeps making it clearer.

Cheers
Mitch.