Grants

[Dean_Dolph]

There is a thread under 'Propellers' that references the following web site

http://www.zcav.com/propeller.htm

It is interesting (but what is the real world performance!) but the one thing on this web site that is intriguing is the Wolf Aviation Fund icon in the left column. Click on it and it looks like a place that provides aviation related grants.

This is an area that Glenn Bundy, PRA secretary, has asked for help with during several general membership meetings at past international conventions. The PRA could use all the financial help it can get.

Any grant writers out there?

[Dean_Dolph]

During the Life Members meeting at Mentone '06, Mike McKiernan, a former BOD member, brought up the idea of grants again. He asked me to forward the web site that I referenced in my previous post in this thread. I have done that. Hopefully his quest for a grant will be productive.

[rgraffeo]

Mr Dean,
Do you have an idea for a proposal for the grant application?

Tomorrow I'll try to talk to one of my co-workers who is a grant writer for a nearby city & my parish.

[Dean_Dolph]

Rudy, I don't have any experience with grant writing. But I would think that a good supportable reason has to be given in order for people to willingly donate money.

I would think that a grant writer could use the fact that the PRA is a non-profit organization as a start and then use statements from the PRA by-laws about safety and education as a reason the money is needed and work from there.

It would be nice to get at least a small grant to complete and maintain the PRA web site that serves the purpose of education and subsequently safety.

I appreciate the work that our web site team has done but the fact is the web site needs to be completed asap and then maintained/updated as soon as a change is needed. Our web site team members have other responsibilities that have to be taken care of first before they expend time on the web site. But if a professional tech , that does this for a living, was paid to do it then it would get done pronto because we would go elsewhere if it wasn't.

[PW_Plack]

Dean,

My guess would be that PRA would have a difficult time getting its first grant as a stand-alone. PRA might partner with, say, Georgia Tech, or some other university which has developed credibility in the field, and propose to do sophisticated modeling of rotor behavior during autorotation. That seems to be the big missing component everyone runs into in attempting to whip the safety gremlins.

Getting LSA gyros is the other big issue, but I don't see where that quest has yet reached the point of "throwing money at it".

Getting a grant just to raise PRA's head above water financially would be a long shot. It needs to be a proposal to study something.

[Dean_Dolph]

Paul, not ever being involved in trying for a grant I can't verify or dispute your position. And I don't think what I stated runs contray to it. You mentioned the LSA gyro and the FAA has already stated that until the gyro safety record improves that they won't approve including it in that catagory.

So, what if a grant request is for improving gyro and pilot safety and the testing of any new safety measure?

This could include the type of gyro testing that D. Riley has mentioned as well as looking at improving gyro training by supporting development of more instructors, improving our training methods and developing texts on gyro theory. The last one is the one area that some of us feels needs the most attention in order to fully educate our pilots. And in order to do the testing and development; airport improvements or what ever are required.

Obviously I'm just thinking out loud (I don't know how to describe it when I'm typing!) and just tossing stuff out to get everyone thinking about this.

I failed to mention that M. McKiernan already had a grant writer in mind who he says has been pretty sucessful. But I suspect that any grant writer would be relying on us to provide info to use in generating the grant request. And if Rudy, or anyone else, has a grant writer that can help that is great. The more the merrier!

I can't think of any reason not to request as many grants as we can find reason for. It is my understanding that the grant writer ends up with a percentage of the grant. But anything that is received is more than what we are receiving now. It may be that we need an intial grant approved so that we can use it to request supporting grants. I just don't know the dynamics that are involved at this point.

[PW_Plack]

Perhaps the systematic, formal, instrumented stability testing which would establish useful baselines for comparing designs might be a worthwhile effort. There would be expenses for equipment, travel, and other miscellaneous costs, but what a breakthrough it would be to have something other than manufacturer claims and third-hand guesses based on looking at photos.

[M. Pearce]

I took a grant writing class at McNeese State U. Most grants these days are centered around the benifit of the whole community. Did you know Wellfair and Food Stamps come from government grants that are surprizingly not garanteed every year. My Wife is a grant writer and and a webmaster that has gotten many educational grants for schools in our community. They do have a deadline for turning in grants. Grants are not written overnight either because a lot of thought has to go into them. A good name goes a long way in getting grants too. As for the PRA getting some grants I think they have some small problems that need ironing out first. For one, I haven't seen my first magazine yet! Grant reviewers love hearing about previous year projects and community involvement. What has the PRA done in the past to get out there and get involved in the community. Simply being a non-profit organization isn't going to cut it. Who's going to be responsible for overseeing the project and have they in the past been credible. I can't see the PRA getting a grant anytime soon because membership has a continous failing trend going. Lets face it, even governments jump from sinking ships. Not saying they don't have a chance in hell. When grants are being reviewed emotion is the last thing they are looking far. Grants reveiwers want to see hard facts and accountability. Grant reviewers want to see what and how the money is going to benift the whole community. I can't see where the PRA has done anything for my community and/or for the most part it's own members. I know some get to go to the airport and enjoy it if they have time and can afford it. Does the PRA have a good record of accountability? Does the PRA reach out to educate it's members or do they sit back and cash membership checks? Does the PRA have every members interest at heart? Has the PRA progressively reached out to the community and done anything to help that community? I just don't think the PRA is in the position to be asking for a grant at this time. After all, the PRA is mainly comprized of hobbiest, not community activist. How can we ask our government to support a hobby or some wild haired idea of technological gyrocoptoral sub sonic advances when many a private company has failed with their own monies? You would have to find a very bored grant writer to take this one on! Grants are not just free money that is passed out for being good looking. A lot of work has to be done even after a grant is granted. And if for some strange reason some of that extra project money is left over at the end of term, the government will most likely want that back.

[route66]

While a grant is a shot in the dark and has possibilities, I really think it is up to the members to step forward to make it happen. It is up to our club to decide what is most important whether it be a magazine, website, education or member benefits. I am sure it would ruffle a few feathers if the decision is to not publish a magazine although with the website, members would receive way more info with a reduced cost if it was used to it’s potential. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy my magazines and the shelf they occupy, but does it really have to be that way? The PRA website has been tweeked by somebody and is starting to look like something. Thanks to whoever and my hat is off to you. It has the potential to fill a lot of needs and desires of not only the seasoned pilots but everyone interested in our sport. If the PRA had a positive direction and goals set it is just a matter of making it happen. Some might want to argue this point, but money is easy to find if there is a valid reason. I guess what I am saying is rater than look for freebees we should look at ourselves to make it happen. This forum raised money for a few projects with nothing more than a posting. I was amazed at the people who donated for the flower fund and others that helped with the hanger at Mentone. It just shows that gyro people care and are there!

IMHO, let’s forget the freebee’ grants and make this a group we are all proud of. There might only be a few of us, but when we unite, nothing should be impossible.

[Dean_Dolph]

........ And if for some strange reason some of that extra project money is left over at the end of term, the government will most likely want that back.Mark, while you make some good points, the fact is that the pursuit of grants doesn't necessarily mean pursuing one from any government. And in fact that isn't the direction I would take.

There appears to be considerable private foundation money available. The one, and only lead, I passed on to M. McKiernan appeared to be of this type. I didn't check into it very far but it also appears that there are many aviation related grant sources out there.

It would help, before rejecting the idea of 'free' money, if several PRA members volunteer to continue the investigation of aviation grant sources. I would suggest that those who would like to participate in such activity, contact G. Gemminger, the PRA volunteer coordinator about setting up a grant investigation coalition.

In the end, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[Dean_Dolph]

......I really think it is up to the members to step forward to make it happen. You got that right! This organization can only move forward with the involvement of the members. This is a case of 'there is no free lunch'.......It is up to our club to decide what is most important whether it be a magazine, website, education or member benefits....... Brandon, until recently, the magazine was the only visible benefit for PRA members. The other more valuable benefits such as the 5209 training exemption and a PRA sponsored conduit to the FAA, and other agencies, are less visible and consequently usually not thought about by the individual member. Now that a web site available, there is another very visible benefit. But at the moment all gyro enthusiasts, members and non members alike, are benefiting from it. And that is good. However, when the members only section is available then I believe we will see the real power of it. The members only section will provide a very strong incentive to join the PRA. Until then, the magazine is the one benefit that most members expect and pay for.I am sure it would ruffle a few feathers if the decision is to not publish a magazine although with the website, members would receive way more info with a reduced cost if it was used to it’s potential...... I doubt if there is a more passionate PRA web site proponent in gyroland than me!

However, I never, I say again, I never want to lose my magazine. So, I would be the first in line with ruffled feathers. Both the mag and web site are info sources and both have strengths and advantages. I see no reason to abandon one for the other. ...... The PRA website has been tweaked by somebody ....... What you are seeing is the all volunteer PRA web site team at work. The effort is coordinated by BOD member Tim Blackwell and I suspect that most of the work is done by another talented volunteer, John Alexander. However, I feel that the web site is of such importance that, when the PRA is financially able, we end up contracting out our web site mod, update and maintenance needs. ....If the PRA had a positive direction and goals set it is just a matter of making it happen.....I believe that, starting with Bensen Days '06, where the future of the PRA was a serious topic of discussion, that all indications point to a more focused effort by the BOD to identify direction and goals. I trust the new BOD to do what is necessary.

If you polled those of us that attended either Bensen Days and/or Mentone '06, I believe you would find that the majority came away with new enthusiasm and hope for the future. Some might want to argue this point, but money is easy to find if there is a valid reason.....I'm not so sure about this.

If this was the case and the money was 'easy' to find then we wouldn't be having this dialog and a reason for this thread wouldn't exist. There has been sort of an impromptu brain storming session (hopefully it hasn't ended!) in this thread that might have a valid reason or two to include in a grant request. .....This forum raised money for a few projects with nothing more than a posting...... It just shows that gyro people care and are there!Caring responses are one thing we can always depend on. .....IMHO, let’s forget the freebee’ grants and make this a group we are all proud of. There might only be a few of us, but when we unite, nothing should be impossible. I don't see any reason to forget about pursuing grants. But observations, opinions and suggestions from you, and others who care, are what are going to determine what direction is taken and the success of the effort.

[gyroplanes]

You mentioned the LSA gyro and the FAA has already stated that until the gyro safety record improves that they won't approve including it in that catagory.


Gyroplanes ARE already in LSA !

It's the factory built SLSA that we are excluded from.

We have many LSA certified gyroplanes out there right now.

You can buy or import any factory built gyroplane (that meets LSA regs) and certify it LSA for the next 17 months.

[Desert Flyer]

I know a thing or two about Federal grants. I've been auditing them at various entities for almost ten years.

You can go to www.cfda.gov and see all the federal domestic grants there are. CFDA stands for Catalog of Federal Domestic Assistance, There is a good section on the web site about how to write a grant proposal.

I scanned the listing and saw one program, CFDA #20.108 Aviation Research Grants, that the PRA would likely be eligible for - especially the aircraft safety technology portion. However it says there are no discretionary funds available, so FAA sponsorship would be required.

I guess the first step would be to determine exactly what the goal your trying to accomplish is (website improvement?), and then see what programs are available in the catalog. Each program in the list describes its application process.

[Dean_Dolph]

Gyroplanes ARE already in LSA !

It's the factory built SLSA that we are excluded from.

We have many LSA certified gyroplanes out there right now.

You can buy or import any factory built gyroplane (that meets LSA regs) and certify it LSA for the next 17 months.Yeah, I knew that but didn't differentiate between LSA compliant and SLSA machines. And I believe it is the SLSA machines that will legitimize the gyro in a lot of people's eyes since they will be expected to meet the ASTM standards. The amatuer built machines being certified now aren't required to meet them.

Also, do you want to tell everyone what happens after 17 months?

[Dean_Dolph]

ThanX for the input Dan.

I talked to my youngest daughter (B.S. psychology, M.S public health) this a.m who has experience in grant writing (which she hates!) in the health field and found that in her involvement that they go after private funding first and only go after government money after private funds have dried up. I could tell that she didn't want to get any closer to grant writing than she had to and was in a hurry to get off the phone! Dad gets no respect; where did I go wrong!

Edit to add: The way I see it; grant money would be used to carry out the mission of the PRA which is to - well, rather than type it in here, I would suggest that anyone that is interested, take a look at the PRA by-laws on the web site and see what is said under 'Purpose'.

The definition of what vehicles are covered under 'purpose', such as the web site and the magazine, might be a stretch but it seems to me that if info is being conveyed, that contributes to safety and etc., that we would be satisfying the intent. Then there is the suggestion by Paul Plack and etc. to consider.

[gyroplanes]

EAA RECEIVES WISCONSIN TOURISM GRANT

August 17, 2006 - Last Friday, August 11, Wisconsin Tourism Secretary Jim Holperin presented EAA with a Joint Effort Marketing (JEM) grant of $28,400 to promote the "Good Ol' Days" aviation history event coming to the EAA AirVenture Museum this weekend. JEM grants allow non-profit tourism organizations to better promote their event to a wider marketplace, and helps tourism destinations to work more closely with the state to showcase the unique events throughout Wisconsin.
"Wisconsin organizations, agencies, and destinations such as EAA have so many wonderful ideas and programs designed to attract, entertain and educate travelers," Holperin said. "We know the effect that additional marketing funds have in making sure as many people as possible know things such as Good Ol' Days are happening throughout the state."

Rick Larsen, EAA vice president of marketing, accepted the grant in a presentation at the Paine Art Center in Oshkosh, which also received a $28,000 grant to promote its "Electric Tiffany" exhibit of original lamps.

[Dean_Dolph]

Yeah, the EAA really needs that grant!

But it does show what can happen if an organization as financially stable as the EAA goes after a relatively small grant. I say small because when it is compared to the other EAA income and assets its a drop in the bucket.

This is a case of the rich getting richer....

[Mike Schallmann]

Dean

Im disappointed in you to slam EAA in that way --
EAA had their duck s in a row and went after the grants that they could get --why dosent the PRA get their s**t together and go after some of the monies available.

Im the PRA15 president and Ive become very jaded in my outlook of the PRA in general. In short the PRA hasnt done a damn thing to help out the individual chapters or the general membership. All you get for you dues is a CRUMMY magazine --( that has lost its pizzaz--if it ever had any) -- sure I'll continue to pay my dues --only to maintain our Chapter charter. Im tired of the company policy that WE are the PRA --in reality it aint so --the Pres and BOD are the PRA --they need to get something going or our ORG will fade into oblivion---

[Chuck Roberg]

Im the PRA15 president

Really glad your not our chapter president.

[Mike Schallmann]

Chuck--Im glad your not a member of our club!!! Does that make you feel better now!

I tell it like it is --what has the PRA done for YOU or YOUR club ??

[Dean_Dolph]

Dean

Im disappointed in you to slam EAA in that way --
EAA had their duck s in a row and went after the grants that they could get --why dosent the PRA get their s**t together and go after some of the monies available. Hey, Mike, disappointing people in one way or another is my purpose in life! It usually quickens the pulse of weak hearts so I’m doing a public service.

One thing you did with this note was to get me to clear my desk in search of a ’06 issue of Sport Aviation that had EAA’s ‘05 financial statement. Never found it but the desk looks much neater! So, I’m going to go out on a limb and try to remember what I read and what I made reference to in an earlier thread.

With this disclaimer, ‘as I recall’, the EAA had almost 1 million dollars of income off its investments in ’05. So, Mike, if we had been having a face to face conversation when I said that “Yeah, the EAA really needs that grant!” would you have accepted that sarcastic comment as one of reality? I certainly wasn’t slamming the organization but pointing out a fact.

I’m an EAA member. But it irritates me that Tom P. editorializes that they are here for us when in fact the organization, that his father started, has evolved into a family run business that feeds off the backs of volunteers. I’m not knocking how effective they are at making money or the benefits that all the aviation community receives from the EAA. But I am pointing out that a $20+K grant is not even a good size drop in their bucket while the PRA, as another organization that wants to serve its members in the same way, struggles to get into a financial position where it can. It is not easy to get our act together when we are an organization of true volunteers and don’t have a paid staff like the EAA. Im the PRA15 president and Ive become very jaded in my outlook of the PRA in general. In short the PRA hasnt done a damn thing to help out the individual chapters or the general membership. All you get for you dues is a CRUMMY magazine --( that has lost its pizzaz--if it ever had any) -- sure I'll continue to pay my dues --only to maintain our Chapter charter. Im tired of the company policy that WE are the PRA --in reality it aint so --the Pres and BOD are the PRA --they need to get something going or our ORG will fade into oblivion--- I’m puzzled by your comments since in my dealings with you in the past you seemed be willing to go the extra mile to help. I guess it takes a while to get ‘jaded’.

I’m like to point out that you are making the same error as I did at one time, whether you want to accept it or not, in thinking that you, I and the rest of the individual members aren’t the PRA. To say that Rusty and the BoD is the PRA is abdicating personal responsibility. This is what I’ve disappointingly come to expect from today’s generation but not some one like you. I’m wondering why you are doing this; just tired of the effort or what?

Another common error you are making is saying that the only benefit the member gets is the magazine. I like getting the magazine just because it is something tangible and connects me with the rest of the organization. But I don’t consider it the prime benefit the PRA provides me with. I could repeat what has been repeated ad nauseam about the other benefits but I’m going to let you determine what they are. If you really care it isn’t hard, it just takes a little thought.

[Doug Riley]

W-e-l-l...

Yes, the PRA is just us rotorcraft folk, and a small bunch we are. Still, a magazine full of nothing but volunteer article contributions reads either like a church bulletin or like an extension of various manufacturers' P.R. departments. I hope that we can admit that this is not exactly cutting-edge journalism. Admitting it doesn't mean we have to blame the volunteer officers, but we might as well get beyond denial.

Bensen in his heyday put out a somewhat more entertaining magazine. There was plenty of the cornball church-bulletin/senior-citizen-news style stuff, to be sure. However, Bensen himself wrote technical articles in which he SOMETIMES would disgorge a little of his rotorcraft engineering knowledge. He also licensed articles from other publications. I suspect he subsidized the magazine, maybe on the theory that it mostly benefitted his company's sales anyway.

Dean took my name in vain earlier in this thread, suggesting that I help with a grant proposal. I can help with drafting or pitching the thing. I have no technical credentials (an econ. major doesn't count for much), nor any experience writing grants. It's an art in itself. One of our college-professor members probably has some actual experience in grant apps, or knows someone who does.

[Chuck Roberg]

Dean and Doug, While at the life members meeting one of the members brought up grants. Sorry I'm poor at remembering names. But he writes grants and voluntered to try and get some kind of grant for the PRA. I believe he said, once you get the first one and get your foot in the door it becomes a little easier.

Dean you were there. Maybe you could add more.

[Dean_Dolph]

Dean and Doug, While at the life members meeting one of the members brought up grants......Dean you were there. Maybe you could add more.Chuck, I believe the guy you are talking about is Mike McKiernan, a past BoD member and according to the chapter contact list, the prez of Chapter 25.

If so, then he isn't a grant writer but had knowledge and experience with one. I gave him a lead in to a possibility and I don't know if he followed up on that particular one but I do know that he is pursuing one and has had at least four meetings with the grant writer.

I hate revealing the stuff that is happening in the background because then it builds expectations for things that may never happen. But Mike isn't only a volunteer, he is a super volunteer and he has several projects in the works that hopefully the BoD will bless. I know that he has communication going with them thru Greg G.

Others have also made proposals, so things are happening. And I heard thru the grapevine that PRA has gained 100 members since Mentone. I can't vouch for the validity of that info.

[Dean_Dolph]

W-e-l-l...

Yes, the PRA is just us rotorcraft folk, and a small bunch we are. Still, a magazine full of nothing but volunteer article contributions reads either like a church bulletin or like an extension of various manufacturers' P.R. departments. I hope that we can admit that this is not exactly cutting-edge journalism. Admitting it doesn't mean we have to blame the volunteer officers, but we might as well get beyond denial. Doug, I don’t think anybody, which includes the BoD and the mag editor, is in denial about the quality of the magazine or its content. Money may not be a cure all but it would go a long way toward improving it. Rick has said a number of times that, if the web site took on some of the load, mag pages could be freed for other uses.

If we ever get back to the point of where we can afford more pages (and color!) then there is enough tech stuff in 60’s & 70’s issues that could be recycled to keep the mag full for a year or two. The vast majority of the present membership has not seen those articles and most are just as relevant now as they were when they were first published. I’m sure you remember the days of editors such as Kas Thomas and company that included Chuck B. There is new stuff that has occurred since that could be interspersed that would keep us ole timers happy. Paul Plack made the comment about getting article contributors out side the PRA and I can see a benefit to doing that – if they are free and we can afford the number of pages! Once there is money available then asking for free lance submissions certainly would be in order.

Dean took my name in vain earlier in this thread, suggesting that I help with a grant proposal. I can help with drafting or pitching the thing. I have no technical credentials (an econ. major doesn't count for much), nor any experience writing grants. It's an art in itself. One of our college-professor members probably has some actual experience in grant apps, or knows someone who does. As Erkel, or what ever his name was, would say, ‘Did I do that’! I can’t find where I did that in this thread but I might have overlooked it. Now, I have done it in other threads and make no apology! I know I gave you a heads up somewhere on a post by P. Plack where he mentions partnering with Georgia Tech, or another willing institution, to pursue some testing like you have suggested.

It goes without saying that if you get an opportunity to inquire about some grant writer that it might be useful. If everyone that might have a lead in follows up then sooner or later we should have some success.

[PW_Plack]

Dean said,

If we ever get back to the point of where we can afford more pages...

Dean, some of the vounteer submissions in the magazine tend to ramble, and might be edited to save space. Also, is it me, or is the print in Rotorcraft about twice the size of the fonts used in other magazines?

[Dean_Dolph]

Dean said,

If we ever get back to the point of where we can afford more pages...

Dean, some of the vounteer submissions in the magazine tend to ramble, and might be edited to save space. Also, is it me, or is the print in Rotorcraft about twice the size of the fonts used in other magazines?Editing saving space? I guess I don't know enough about magazine editing to comment on that. Now, if I were contributing there difinitely wouldn't be enough as there is. Or to look at it another way; editing mine would certainly free up more space!

As far as the font size is concerned I never noticed but my ole eyes need all the help they can get! I just compared the Rotorcraft font size to other mags I read and it looks like you are right in that there appears to be a size difference but it doesn't look like twice the size. But then again this isn't an area I'm familiar with. You may want to discuss this with Rick Gilley.

[Ralph]

Dean,

The sad fact is, the magazine doesn't have a fraction of the interest or usefulness that it did when Paul was the editor. This last issue we had 15 pages (!) devoted to flying platforms and jeeps. A fraction of that might have been an interesting history article, but the machines were a total washout except for hovercraft, and those guys have their own websites and interest groups. Such a spread makes even less sense when we are supposed to be cutting back coverage to save money. Reprints of selected past articles would be infinitely better then what we have at the moment. If you have joined the PRA in the past five years, the magazine may look OK. If you are a long-time member, you know better.

I don't envy Rick's problem - less money, fewer members, fewer aircraft, and fewer manufacturers. Let's take the best of what's available today (don't settle just because you have to fill the pages) and then go for some good stuff from the past!

Ralph

[Dean_Dolph]

Ralph, I can't find anything in your post that I can take issue with and since I'm a nit picker that is rare!

I think that Paul Abbott was a jewel but there are not many like him around so there wasn't much of a chance that he could be replaced. We can't go back to yesteryear so, we need to quit feeling sorry for ourselves and deal with the situation as it is.

We keep bringing up the quality/quantity problem here but it is not going to be solved on this Forum. I would bet it is on the BoD priority list somewhere but where it resides is a question. I suspect that until the financial situation is improved that they are not going to address the magazine problem.

Would an improved mag help the financial situation by attracting more members? Maybe. Maybe not.

The thing that is known is that the mag has been cut back in size/quantity and color has been dropped. And as G. Kaminski has pointed out; it is not something we can be proud of. I have faith that things are turning around and the issues are being addressed. But there are so many of them that there aren’t enough resources to handle them all at once.

When I say resources I mean volunteers and money. We have a volunteer coordinator and the plea for help has gone out. Now it is up to the membership to respond or show some patience while the available volunteers do what they can.