How Safe Is It?

[jfka2020]

Hi...i was referred to this forum by an old high school friend of mine...i was classmates with his older brother...and by chance...saw an email of his with a picture of his gyrobee...

I tried hangliding in san francisco...the early 80's then switched to paragliding ( easier to carry) but was soon shot down by my wife who was concerned about my safety....thats was 20 years ago! Sheesh! How time flies!

She told me to grow up and forget about flying. That NOT for married men who have families she argued.It didnt take much for her to scare me and make me forget my wish to fly.

Now that i saw my old friends gyro...and him saying how safe it has become...my flying juices are flowing again.

:)

Are there any statsistics out there that say how many or how few accidents there have been in the last 10 years with gyros compared to 20 yrs ago that i could show my wife to justify buying one. Money is not the object. The problem is the fear factor.

How safe is it?

Pls help me with figures...I am in my mid fifties now and my family is totally dependednt on me...I have 2 kids in high school still.

I hate to bring it up but can you help me and my wife quell this fear one would normally have of its safety?

Thanks.

[John Stahl]

This week that is the question that we all have been asking ourselves.
How Safe Is It?

This forum has brought the Gyro community very close. We don’t like to loose a forum brother and when we do it hurts like Hell.
That’s why Safety has become a top priority for us on this forum.

There are many types of safety.
The safety that a well designed Gyro can provide.
The Gbee was designed in 1991 there are a lot of bees in the sky today.
If I’m not mistaken The Gbee had its first fatality this week. It appears to have been caused by an engine out during takeoff.
Sparrow hawk has a great record but there was a fatal crash last march. The cause has yet to be determined.

The design of these gyros wasn’t the cause of the crash but mechanical malfunction.

Proper flight training has also improved the safety with in the gyro community. Twenty five years ago most fatalities happened with in the first 100 hours of flying a gyro. The pilots were self thought back then.

The next type of safety that the gyro community needs to begin to focuses on is pre flight inspections. The mechanical malfunctions may have been detected had there been a more thrall preflight inspection.

The biggest bugger for gyro safety is stupid human tricks. Pilots become complacent and cocky and get in to trouble. You are the only one that can evaluate how your character will affect your flying.

One of the problems that our spouses have, with Gyro’s is, that a gyro just doesn’t look like it should fly. Therefore it can’t be safe.

If you buy or build a well designed gyro, Get proper flight instruction, and pay attention to details. Then you have done all that you can do to be safe.

[jfka2020]

thank you for your reply john...

"If I’m not mistaken The Gbee had its first fatality this week. It appears to have been caused by an engine out during takeoff.Sparrow hawk has a great record but there was a fatal crash last march. The cause has yet to be determined."

where are these records kept?

pls direct me to a statistics page.

[Paul_Zurawski]

Have you been up for a ride in a two seat gyro yet? If not, get an hour or two of dual before you buy a gyro. Sitting out in the open is different, and its not for everyone.

[Brian Jackson]

Joseph,

I must say that John Stahl was spot-on in his reply.

I am not aware of any single web page that proves to a wife these things won't kill you. If there were I think most of us would have printed it off long ago:) My wife doesn't like my GyroBee being built at all, and has said so. But this design has been flying since 1991 without incident until last week, which was not only a shock to the forum, but especially the GyroBee community.

Of the dozens, possibly hundreds, of GyroBees (and others) currently flying, the loss of one was a true shock to this forum family. It's an incredibly popular design, so statistically the odds were bound to catch up.

As was pointed out, there are inherent risks. This is true for any sport, including football or baseball. The risks are dramatically lessened with proper training, again true with any sport.

Chosing the right aircraft greatly contributes to your safety most of all. As a group we've learned much since the '60s Bensen era, primarily with the physics of the ships themselves. Centerline Thrust, Center of Gravity calculations, Horizontal Stab placement... there's truly a plethora of engineering advancements that have collectively contributed to the safety of Gyro flight.

Nonetheless there's no "vaccination" against every conceivable flight scenario. Accidents will happen. It's the risk we agree to whenever we fly, drive a car, ride a motorcycle or walk down the street. We "anny up" and place our bets with everything we do in life. We could hide in a closet and die of clogged arteries, but have we lived?

Joseph, I can sympathise with your situation. All of us here have questioned the sanity of pursuing our sport at one time or another. But just like engineering an airfoil, everything's a trade-off (to use the analogy.) My wife finally accepted the fact that this is what I'm going to do. Training is a must, and everything will be done "by the book." I won't even taxi until my CFI says it's OK. It's not only smart, but the wifey likes it when somebody else can boss me around:D

I'm not quite there yet, but building a gyro with a wife involved requires a certain degree of diplomacy. Consider it a compliment... she loves you and wants to keep you around.

Respectfully,
Brian Jackson

[scottessex]

The question comes up alot, There is no good answer, riding motorcycles is not inherently dangerous by itself, but factor in people that don't pay attention, riding too fast for conditions, deer etc.
At least when you are flying no one is going to turn left in front of you!
The main problem with gyroplanes is that for years there was no dual instruction available, now there is. But, people still think they can teach themselves to fly.
Would you teach yourself how to scuba dive? Parachute, race nascar? No you would want to get proper training.
45,000 people die in car accident every year, but no one will give up thier car, it is accepted risk. Horseback riding seems to very dangerous also.

Proper training, proven design, proper preflights and calm weather conditions all help promote safety for pilots especially while building up hours.
I have had a crash, engine out on takeoff, I was very fortunate to be able to walk away unhurt, The training kicked in, and seemed like a bargain at ten times the price when you are in a situation like that.

Like Brian said, you can live your life in the closet or sit on the couch, but is that really living?

Weigh your risks and decide what you want. cheers.

[Steve McGowan]

Long time ago I heard my Daddy say something that Hank Williams had sang in a song...

Tricycle, Bicycle, Automobile, Five Legged Woman, and a Ferris Wheel

If one don't Kill Ya, Then the other Will.

At the time I thought my Ole Daddy was Drunk.. Later on I found out he wasn't. Just the facts of life..

Training,,, NAW... it ain't worth a dime.. But when something happens and you don't know what or how to resolve it without killin yourself..

Kinda Like INSURANCE,, It's not any good till you need it..

Oh Yes,,, Thanks Guys ,, Louisiana is fulla good folks... BOO Dro and I really enjoyed ourselves.

me&BOO DRO

[jfka2020]

thank you all for the kind and thoughtful...insightful replies.

i will take paul Z's advice and go for a ride on a two seater gyro...if i can find one in the philippines. i think there is one in the old subic or clark us army and navy base.

i was just wondering...can one equip his gyro with one of these?

this might just take care of my problem....and if so....didnt the plane that crashed recently have one of these parachutes?.... if not...why not?

http://www.basd.net/technology/STEEP/Technology/3.6/Parachute%20Design_files/image015.jpg

*j*

[Paul_Zurawski]

Main reason a parachute may not/wont work in a gyrocopter....rotor blades. The parachute would get tangled up in the rotors. If you had a power push over, and the rotors stuck the rudder, and broke off, by then, the gyro is usually tumbling end over end. Parachute would still get tangled up.

[skier]

I think that Cirrus is one of the only manufacturers that puts the parachutes in their planes. From my understanding they are expensive and heay additions, both of which are not condusive to airplanes.

Personally, I think the idea of the parachutes for airplanes is a really good idea. It has saved a few people's lives in the Cirrus.

[Brian Jackson]

The FAA does allow, from my understanding, an additional 15 lbs. beyond the Ultralight weight limit for a ballistic parachute. The problem is in it's deployment. Your rotor is already a sort of parachute because you're flying in autorotation. It breaks your fall, plus adds lift. Hence GyroCopters are really powered gliders.

As was mentioned in a pervious post, where would you mount a parachute? The only logical place would be above the rotorhead. But that doesn't make sense when you consider you won't need it unless you're tumbling... in that case you're deploying it under you and land on it... not much good.

A third option is to place the device on one landing gear leg. In my opinion this is the safest option but does alter the flying characteristics... which is a no-no. Even so, in immediate deployment you have, say, 3 or 4 feet of axle strut length. Compare that with a 24 foot rotor. If the blades were still attached it would take very little attitude change before the two fought each other.

In addition, consider the statistical probibility of losing the rotors in an upright, controllable position. For the miniscule trade-off in perceived safety, the very act of adding a BRS may contribute to the emergency.

[Brian Jackson]

I didn't think of the cluster plate hard point where the keel meets the mast. It might be possible to attach & deploy a BRS from there at an angle that didn't interfere with the landing gear or tail surfaces. You'd still land upside down but probably alive. Again, this would only work in a no-rotor situation.

[Friendly]

what happens if by some accident the chute opens in normal flight?
As everyone has said as nice as can be said. Flying is risky, you do everything to make your machine as airworthy as possible, you train to make yourself as airworthy as your machine, and you stay as right as you can with your fellowman and God in-case you are in a situation that can not be resolved without a crash.
As Steve said, something will eventually get us all. Two cars passing each other on the road with only a few feet between them and 55 MPH is only 4 feet away from a 110 mph impact.
On this earth Gravity Rules, It always rules, flying is learning the right of passage. It will Judge you the entire time you exercise this right. NO EXCEPTIONS!

Steve
we are indebted to you for showing us so many of the road signs to obey less we pay! We were blessed to have you with us for two weeks.

[Hognose]

Statistics... ah, there's a problem.

The world is made up of 200-odd countries which all collect data differently. And there is no place that aggregates the data. Then, on top of that, there is a problem in specifying the safety of some activity; and that problem can be named as, "compared to what?"

You see, you can go to the US accident investigation organisation's, NTSB's, website (http://www.ntsb.gov/). You can search it for all accidents, or just fatal accidents, on category "gyroplane." And you get a list of accidents.

But what that tells you is that one can crash, and that some people who crash are injured and killed. What is missing in figuring out how safe this is, is the denominator of the ratio. (Or even what are the units for the denominator. Are we looking up, say, fatal accidents over hours flown? Or fatal accidents over gyros registered?). And even if we decide what the denominator should be -- hours flown in gyros, perhaps -- we discover that no one is keeping that statistic for light GA in general.

Even the insurance underwriters and actuaries, whose job it is to understand and manage these risks, don't have very good quantitative data.

So what I will do, is give you an opinion (!) on the safety of gyro flying, as compared to parallel recreational activities.

In my opinion it is much riskier than motor racing at the club level (SCCA, NHRA etc), somewhat less risky than motorcycle racing, and much less risky than BASE jumping or climbing high mountains. It's probably about as risky as riding a motorcycle on the roads. (I've done all these myself, except base jumping).

Gyro flying is riskier than flying normal, non-experimental light aircraft. It shouldn't be, but it is. You can ameliorate these risks by choosing your machine with care, getting plenty of training (an instructor in the plane with you is "training wheels" for gaining experience safely, over and above the knowledge he or she can pass on to you! Instruction is the WRONG place to save money), and conducting rigorous periodic and preflight inspections.

Again these are only my opinions. You may decide that I have misplaced gyro flying along that continuum of risk, after you know more... everybody has his own opinion. And everything in life is a risk, from eating a hamburger to taking a bath.

cheers

-=K=-

[Harry_S.]

We all appreciate your posts, Kevin.

Your posts speak from experience and practicality. Thank you.


CFWMDF
Cheers :)

[Jazzenjohn]

Great reply John

<there's no "vaccination" against every conceivable flight scenario. Accidents will happen. It's the risk we agree to whenever we fly, drive a car, ride a motorcycle or walk down the street. We "anny up" and place our bets with everything we do in life. We could hide in a closet and die of clogged arteries, but have we lived?>

Excellent Brian.


<As was mentioned in a pervious post, where would you mount a parachute? The only logical place would be above the rotorhead. But that doesn't make sense when you consider you won't need it unless you're tumbling... in that case you're deploying it under you and land on it... not much good.>

I'm not so sure about that. It may have been a fine place for a chute in the last Sparrowhawk accident and also possibly the Bee as well (there may not have been enough time for deployment there.) The other issue with rotorhead deployment is rotor spin. Chutes don't open well twisted up. There may be a solution using a bearing but then you wouldn't have directional control under canopy. That might be less of a problem that the alternative...

[Phil_Ruffin]

Main reason a parachute may not/wont work in a gyrocopter....rotor blades. The parachute would get tangled up in the rotors. If you had a power push over, and the rotors stuck the rudder, and broke off, by then, the gyro is usually tumbling end over end. Parachute would still get tangled up.

Everything I have read where someone saw the gyro going down said it was inverted or nosing straight in. I have never read where one tumbled to the ground. I always thought once inverted it stays that way, but it is possible that I have missed a post that said one tumbled in.

Any way, when I can afford it I am going to mount one most likely where the red spot is. I feel like if I am going down either nose first or inverted a chute mounted on the bottom pointed away from the gyro will work.

If I have to come down inverted and it drags me across the ground alittle, I still feel like I will be able to fly again.

And as Ron would say,,,,,,,,Just my 3.25 cents...:D

[Timchick]

Phil,
Have you ever parachuted with a round canopy? Every landing is pretty hard. Even when you turn the canopy into the wind and do a PLF (parachute landing fall) it still is a pretty hard landing doing it on your feet. I don't think landing upside down and potentially on your head would be very survivable. I don't think the mast would fully absorb the impact and the next thing below the top of the mast is your head.

[Olbod]

You cant cheat death.
When its our turn to go, thats it.
Clue is, make the most of life !

[Phil_Ruffin]

Hey Tim, how's it going?

I have parachuted before but not with a round canopy. But I have never seen a parachute land without some kind of drift involved. Never seen one just come straight down.

By the time I would get to the ground I could stop the rotors. If there is any drift at all the mast will drag across the ground turning the gyro on it's side. I can live through with some road rash! :)

It may be a hard landing but it will most certainly be softer than driving into the ground at a 100+ mph.....

The chute cannot be as impratical as some might think. If I am falling to the ground I would rather have it to try than to not have it and be wishing I did.

[Timchick]

Air Command used to have a BRS on their 2-place machine. I wonder if an anchor point could be mounted on the mast and have another anchor point with a release similar to a parachute riser at the bottom of the gyro. The initial deployment would hang the gyro upside down and then once suspended under canopy the blades would be stopped and the release lever could be released allowing the gyro to fall right-side up?

[Hognose]

I think that Cirrus is one of the only manufacturers that puts the parachutes in their planes. From my understanding they are expensive and heay additions, both of which are not condusive to airplanes.

Cirrus is the only FAR 23 certified aircraft manufacturer that makes the BRS (or as their version is called, CAPS) standard at this time. The whole rig weighs just under 40 lb but it's designed into the airplane. I believe that there have been five successful deployments with eight lives saved so far. There has been one out-of-envelope deployment which failed, and one attempt to deploy the chute where the pilot didn't pull hard enough (!) but survived an ordinary crash landing anyway.

Cirrus intends to put a parachute in its forthcoming personal jet. Another manufacturer is committed to a parachute in its jet (but I cannot name that firm at this time). In addition, the Symphony trainer offers BRS as an option, it is available on Cessna 172 and 182 aircraft as an STC (the old C150/152 chute has been discontinued) and it is standard on the Flight Design CT and optional on many other Light Sport Aircraft. I believe it is standard on Czech Aircraft Works' entire line (CzAW president Chip Erwin is a big believer in BRS chutes).

It is also standard on many European JAR ultralights; I've seen two post-deployment Pipistrel Virus LSA-equivalents over there. All in all, about 200 people are sucking oxygen today because they had a BRS chute. With 20,000 chutes shipped, about 1% of them have been activated.

I have personal friends who are alive because this technology works. I also had one killed because his installation wasn't safe -- chute wrapped around his pusher prop, and he and a student went in. So like everything in aviation it rewards attention to detail.

cheers

-=K=-

[Phil_Ruffin]

Tim, You are exactly correct, the 2 place AC in theory, would deploy from the bottom. Then after the blades could be stopped a release was pulled. Then the main cord to the chute would pop some small guage strapes loose that held the main cord to the landing gear and mast as the gyro flipped right side up.

Pretty cool I think and well worth it should you ever need it.

[jfka2020]

"I am going to mount one most likely where the red spot is. I feel like if I am going down either nose first or inverted a chute mounted on the bottom pointed away from the gyro will work.If I have to come down inverted and it drags me across the ground alittle, I still feel like I will be able to fly again."

thanks for your idea...i think that when the day comes when i fly, i will be taking your 3.25 cents...and getting one installed too.



http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=21410&d=1148166349

one more dumb question, brian mentioned:

"FAA does allow, from my understanding, an additional 15 lbs. beyond the Ultralight weight limit...:

im 235 lbs...and counting......can elephants fly? with an added parachute?

another pedestrians question...dont gyropilots wear parachutes too?

[jfka2020]

"dont gyropilots wear parachutes too?"

that must be the dumbest question ever aksed on this forum.

shows you i know next to nothing about flying.

im not worthy of flying.

[jfka2020]

i guess surfing on ones computer is probably the least riskiest most entertaining sport unbeknowest to man....

it is a sport isnt it?

:)

thanks for all the replies to a birdbrained newbie who still thinks he will fly one of these days.

[Vance]

The only dumb question is the one unasked. Ignorance is cureable.

Thank you, Vance

[jfka2020]

The only dumb question is the one unasked. Ignorance is cureable.Thank you, Vance

that is soooo profound vance...there is hope for me after all...but...

whats the answer?

they do... don't they?

they wear parachutes dont they?

don't they?

pls say they do.

humor this 55 yr oldidiot.

[Udi]

Sorry, Joseph, but there is almost no way to jump off of an out of control gyro. First of all, we usually fly too low to jump. Second, an out of control gyro will be hard to get away from - you know - the rotors may chop you up on the way out. I have always worn a parachute when I was flying hang gliders but rotorcraft are just not conducive for that sort of backup.

Udi
p.s. to answer your original question - I have three little girls and I would not go flying without proper life insurance. Yet, I do go flying because when I don't I feel miserable looking up to the sky every time any aircraft goes by, wishing I was there...

[Hognose]

"one more dumb question, brian mentioned:

"FAA does allow, from my understanding, an additional 15 lbs. beyond the Ultralight weight limit...:

That's on the weight of an ultralight gyro. The MACHINE has to have an empty weight of 254 lb. or less, but certain safety equipment does not count against the weight, including a ballistic parachute.

Note that this refers to US ultralight regulations, which allow operation of unregistered single-seat flying machines, by unlicensed pilots, if they meet certain rules. Note that "unlicensed" does NOT mean "untrained." As you live in a different country, you have to comply with the laws there; I dunno what the Republic of the Phillipines says about experimental and ultralight aircraft. Most aviation regulations are very similar worldwide and follow the lead of the USA and the European Union (the regs even have the same numbers) but one part where there's wide divergence is experimental and ultralight aviation.

By "ballistic" chute, we are referring to an airframe parachute that is rapidly deployed by a rocket to lower an entire aircraft to the ground.

im 235 lbs...and counting......can elephants fly? with an added parachute?

Still on the parachute thing, eh? There are some gyros that are weight sensitive and some that are much less so. I know that RAF gyros have lifted a guy who was 350+ (not that I recommend you get that big). I am 250 myself -- 50 pounds added since an accident ended my running life -- and fly. I would be a bad match for, say, a 447-powered Gyrobee. (Don't sweat the terminology. You'll pick it up).

another pedestrians question...dont gyropilots wear parachutes too?

Normally, no. If you have decent net bandwidth, go to the YouTube site and find Tim Chick's gyro videos and you will see that they're normally flying fairly low. (He has posted links to them in teh Flying Photos thread). That makes a chute pretty useless -- you need about 1000' to exit an aircraft and land under an emergency chute, and that's if you're athletic. Even a military chute that's used for deliberate parachute jumps and opened by static line needs a rock-bottom minimum of 300 yards/meters. Lower than that, you're a lawn dart.

Coupled with the lack of utility of a chute, is a lack of need in most cases. There is a unique safety feature of gyroplanes, they can land in very small spaces and even with zero roll, with an experienced pilot. In other words you can often bring it right down like a helicopter, even in a confined space. Unlike a helicopter, though, you'll be taking it apart to bring home to the airport in a truck. An off-airport landing can be a non-event, or it can bend your gyro -- forum members have experienced both. One member put his gyro down in the middle of a busy city street after an engine failure; he damaged the plane but he and his passenger (his wife) walked away. He didn't even get a ticket!

The incidents we have discussed where a ballistic chute might help mostly involve a loss of control. That's a typical reason that these chutes are used on fixed-wing ultralights and certified aircraft, too. Unlike a chute on your body, which requires you to unstrap, get out of the aircraft, get separation, pull a ripcord, etc., a ballistic chute needs less altitude. The lowest deployment I'm personally aware of was only 75 feet above the ground (that's not inside the deployment envelope, that particular ultralight pilot just got very, very lucky).

Contrary to people's fears that pilots would pull the chute where it is not needed, in practice they are more likely to not pull it where it is needed.

An advantage of a ballistic chute is that, if the pilot becomes incapacitated, a non-pilot parachute can bring the aircraft down safely.

From extensive talks with Cirrus folks, from the founders the Klapmeier brothers on down to customers, it's pretty clear that the actual decision-maker on plane purchases is often a non-flying wife, and the chute prevents a lot of "spousal vetoes" on flying.

cheers

-=K=-

[Steve McGowan]

Mad Max hada chute on his two place when I first met him in Okeechobee Fla. around 1990..

It's never been tested that I know of..in any configuration..least not on a gyro.
Hey,, but if it works once,, thatd be enuff for me..

steve

[jfka2020]

http://www.sportcopter.com/frequently-asked-questions.php

[Brad_King]

Larry Neal is the one that developed the ballistic chute system on the AC. It was indeed configured as stated. The number one problem with a chute on a gyro is not tangling in the rotors or unintentional deployment, its the altitude that gyros normally operate at vs fixed wing. We had the chute on our club trainer but very rarely did we fly more than 500'-1000'.

Brad King
N6372K
Mad Max II LTC

[jfka2020]

do you recall the mars landing?

they had a baloon that opened and bounced the rover? whith the camera that bounced its way to the end till it came to a compete safe stop.

im going to look for that video.

http://powerweb.grc.nasa.gov/pvsee/publications/mars/images/bounce.jpg

cant they do that with small craft?

or people?

that baloon worked like a charm...why do we have to wait 5 yrs 10 years before they commercialize that? why do we have to lose one more life like Alvin S. White when he could have pressed a button when he heard his gyro sputtering and a baloon would have enveloped him in a few seconds and he would have bounced his way to live and tell the tale?

sorry to keep bringing it up but after reading all your really HELPFUL replies...it is clear that a parachute might not have the time to open at the low heights one would normaly fly and can get caught on the rotor blades and **** up the fall even more when it could have glided to the ground....im going to make sure i do a LOT of gliding to the ground exercises...and after all the videos and pics i saw i didnt see anyone wearing a parachute.

i have learned a lot from your insights on this delicate subject that no one really wants to admit...its like living in san francisco and enjoying one of the most beautiful cities in the world and hardly giving a second thought about the earthquake that is coming sooner or later and feeling somewhat secure in the insurance they have taken out....its the price you pay to LIVE i guess...

i am going to fly one of these days...i will be looking for a two seater gyro in the vicinity...but i heard there is one a few hunderd kilometers away and its one of those poweredparagliders and noy a gyro.

which leads me to the obvious newbie question: and straying from the safety subject)

there is a differnce isnt there?...what the MAIN difference between power gliding and gyro?once you are up there and flying i would assume the feeling is the same.

asides from the most exhillerating feeling... of flying one can ever experience...better than sex...anyone can have sex but not everyone can fly.

i know that feeling from my beginners hang and para gliding days 20 yrs ago.
i got a taste of it then and i have never experienced that feeling ever again and am looking forward to on a regular basis...there are some beautiful spots around here that ive been drivin by forever that id love to fly by.

[jfka2020]

There is a thread devoted to this accident here (http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8537)[/QUOTE]

THANK YOU for the link....went there.