heli vs Gyro

[gyro]

I have heard numerous times that gyros are safer than helicopters...Why? I have about 15hrs in about 3 different helicopters and a few hundred in gyros.
I know that response time is critical when the engine quits in a heli, is there something else I'm missing:confused: seems to me that both a heli and gyro stay in the air when the engine runs and falls when it quits.
I practiced auto rotations in helis and it seems quite safe. Altitude can make a difference but the same goes for a gyro.
I'm sure this post will spawn a wide variety of opinions but let's have it.

[Paul_Zurawski]

Has to do alot with mechanical. Gyros dont have tail rotors, gearboxes, or transmissions that can fail. Alot of helos go down, not from engine failures, but from one of the components listed.

[Vance]

In my opinion, you have one of the two main ones nailed Paul. An engine out in a helicopter requires a relatively complex series of actions done at close to the correct time, where as with a gyroplane, you just look for a place to put her down and you even have more options there.

Paul Z has the other one, too many critical systems in a helicopter and too many things to manage.

You can trim out a gyroplane to fly hands and feet off. Most helicopters don’t take long to fall out of the sky with inattention. Rotor speed takes care of itself in a gyroplane.

On the other hand, landing a helicopter doesn’t require a well-timed flair at the correct altitude. As a blind guy this is important. I just keep descending until it touches down. Helicopters are much less risky in a crosswind landing and less likely to hit something climbing out.

Thank you, Vance

[Mike Schallmann]

Vance --there is absolutely no need to ever do a cross wind landing in a gyro --with a zero ground roll possible why put yourself in that situation.

[Vance]

Hello Mike,

I have found more than once that in gusting wind conditions the wind direction can change during the landing. I have found that obstacles can create a situation where a crosswind landing is appropriate. I have found that some airports do not provide an opportunity to land into the wind. I have found that sometimes I make mistakes. I have found that I don’t always know which way the wind blows. I have watched others flying a gyro tip over because they found some reason to make a crosswind landing. Ever covers a lot of ground.

I have landed across the runway to avoid a crosswind landing. I have used a confused, as opposed to a stabilized, approach to avoid a crosswind landing. I know that there are options.

I feel, given the number of gyros that have tipped over doing crosswind landings, to suggest that there is absolute no need to ever do a crosswind landing questions those that have found a reason.

Perhaps as my skills increase my reasons for cross wind landings will decrease.

Thank you, Vance

[gyro]

Paul Z...you stated

Has to do alot with mechanical. Gyros dont have tail rotors, gearboxes, or transmissions that can fail. Alot of helos go down, not from engine failures, but from one of the components listed.

Ok.... gear boxes, transmissions when the fail do they lock-up and simply cause the rotor to stop? or do they fail to supply power to the rotor? if the latter could not an auto rotation still be acheived?

If the tail rotor fails can the power be cut to stop couter torque and go into auto rotation? or is the tail rotor spinning esential to keep you straight in a auto decent? I know I can land my gyro without the rudder just guiding it with the stick.

[gyro]

Vance, I see you fly an R44 is there complexed procedure to landing the thing in the event of an engine out?

[brett s]

A main transmission failure in a helicopter is generally fatal, because they either sieze or are damaged enough internally to cause enough drag that you can't maintain rotor rpm in autorotation.

Tail rotor failure depends on exactly what goes wrong (is it not turning at all, has it departed the airframe, or is it just a control failure?) what you're doing at the time - in cruise flight & over a suitable landing area, you've got a shot. If in a hover or at low speed with a total failure, all you can do is roll off the throttle & make the best of it - and you've got very little time to do that or you're definitely screwed.

Just like if the engine quits - not much time to react or rotor rpm can drop below the critical level.

[Vance]

Hello Paul, They seem complex to me. Assuming I am going faster than 70 mile per hour and I am at more than 500 feet, I have to quickly drop the collective, manage my rotor speed in the green arc by adjusting the collective, find a place to land, find which way the wind blows, maintain my airspeed, attempt a restart, call in the emergency so they can find me if I make a mistake, turn off unnecessary switches and shut off fuel,flair at forty feet, level the ship at 8 feet and pull collective just before touch down. This seems complex to me compared to an engine out in a gyro. The FAA feels that I don’t multi task well because I have landed on my head too many times so it may seem less complex to others. Being blind in one eye makes it more difficult to find forty feet.

In my experience with other helicopters with higher inertia rotor systems, the timing and management are less critical but all the steps are still there.

In a gyroplane, I look for a place to land, call in the emergence and flair at five feet. Sometimes there are confusing maneuvers to land on my chosen spot, but that is the same in a helicopter.

Thank you, Vance

[gyro]

Brett, you brougth up a good point on the tail rotor. I guess if the controll linkage malfuntioned and locked it where it was pulling one way or the other then you trapped in a spin and have to attempt a rather difficult spin landing!

[Paul_Zurawski]

Gyro....Brett covered it. True...a helo can auto just like the gyro...but an auto in a helo is an emergency manuever...in a gyro...its normal ops, unless the engine quit. The helo is mechanically more complex than the gyro, which can give you more items that can fail, which can put you into that autorotation mode.

[Rotor Rooter]

This laterally symmetrical helicopter; Never experienced a tail rotor failure.
Includes a rotor governor.
Has the overrunning clutch located after most of the power train.Transmission, rotors and flight controls in one compact package.
http://www.unicopter.com/FlettnerPrincipalAssy.jpg
Simply add; blades, motor, fuselage and pilot.


This Principal Assembly is 60-years old.
Just think what could be SIMPLY made today. (http://www.unicopter.com/Dragonfly.html)

[quadrirotor]

Yes Dave! You are pushing the thread in the right direction... ;)
Futhermore, swash-plates are simpler; the compactness of the design allows a lot more overdesign!...:)

[brett s]

I'm still waiting for Dave to actually build & fly something, he's been posting this stuff for several years now :)

I'd love to see a simple, affordable helicopter - where I disagree is all the effort solving problems that don't really exist. They aren't *that* hard to fly now, just takes proper training like everything else. The average student gets a PPL in about the same number of hours for helicopters as airplanes in the studies I've seen.

[Rotor Rooter]

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[gyrofly]

To any Helicopter pilots out there that have flown MS Flight Simulator.

Is the program anything like the real thing or is it harder? It seems like hovering is like trying to balance a spinning plate on a stick or a spinning basketball on a finger, either of which I cannot do and is just a matter of time before it bites over...
Ron

[Timchick]

Someone posted a link to this helo simulator in another thread. This is as close to a real-life simulator experience as you can get.

http://www.heli-chair.com/

[skier]

I only have 1.8 hrs helicopter time, but I found real helis to be easier to fly than the MS sim

[brett s]

MSFS is pretty useless for helicopters, it gets so many basic things wrong. But unless you start drifting backwards (then a flaw in the flight model bites & you go out of control), it's actually more stable & sluggish than a real light helicopter...

[karlbamforth]

Flying helicopters is very much seat of the pants flying. Its the same for fixed wing (just a passing fad) and gyro's but probably more so for helis.
Most of the feeling of movement is picked up by your backside, eyes and ears, its very difficult to accuratly replicate this in a simulator and virtually impossible with a home type computer sim.
Or to put it another way, flying is essentially a feedback loop. Feedback when flying for real is picked up by all your senses, when using a computer it is limited to your eyesight.

[ptope]

if your wanting a fairly accurate flight model for helicopter, Get X-Plane, extend a stick so it has the correct gearing ratio and get some pedals, and rip out the throttle control from the stick and mount it in a collective made from copper pipe. thats my little homemade system. Crude, but it works just fine. the flight model of X-Plane is fairly accurate, it has translational lift, disymetry of lift, tranlsating tentancy ( drifting in direction of tail rotor) plus much more.. ive been using it for a couple of years now, and i just started my helicopter training. and i climbed into the frasca FAA cert, and logable flight sim, and i had no problem flying around or hovering..The autos are right on, and the start procedures and shut down procedures can be duplicated in X-Plane. its about as close to the real thing you can get thats affordable and keeps you indoors.. i built my whole system for about 250.00 US and that includes a copy of X-Plane.

check out www.X-Plane.com
and www. X-Plane.org

[keffer]

I spent about 30 hours on MS Flight Simulator and was able to hover on my first lesson. The autos suck in MS but the rest is fairly good. I think getting the cordination of the controls right is one of the most importain things to learn early on. If it saves you one hour it is worth the cost.

[quadrirotor]

The main difference between the gyro and the helico is the efficiency:
If you take one of each with same paid load and same engine, the helico wins:

Take the Safari and the Sportster, both of them with 500lbs of paid load and the same engine 160 hp Lycoco...At all speed, the rate of climb of the helico is twice the one of the gyro...

It doesn't mean that the gyro is a peace of junk...But you must know that simplicity and afordability have a price: long takes off and ROC anemic...Jim Logan said: "put more power!...", and pay with petrol what you need in performances...may be it is a solution to some extent...

[Vance]

Hello Andre,
I feel that assuming that the performance figures quoted for experimental aircraft are accurate and a basis for type comparison is not reasonable.
Thank you, Vance

[quadrirotor]

Vance, i calculated the performances, from the theory.

[Vance]

Hello Andre,

Sorry, I misunderstood.

Neither my calculations nor my personal experience gives the helicopter that much of a performance advantage. I believe there are too many variables to be able to make an apples to apples comparison.

I believe that a person can be moved through the air for les money in a gyroplane than a helicopter, especially in the arena of experimental aircraft.

I believe that a gyroplane requires less maintenance than a helicopter.

I have found that there are fewer critical systems in a gyroplane.

For me, a gyroplane is more fun to fly than a helicopter.

I believe that a gyroplane is easier to build than a helicopter because of a significantly lower parts count.

Thank you, Vance

[quadrirotor]

Give me your numbers, Vance...If you can, some owners get rid off of their ROC, too depressing!

[Rotor-Head]

seems like the common agreement is Helicopters have more critical parts.. Much less can go wrong in a gyro (mechanically speaking). anything can go wrong in both (operationally speaking).

[OzyRuss]

Spot on..........

Too many newbies attempt to become trained for the least amount of bucks, too many "strive" to become "solo", sooner rather than later.

Too many newbies strive to acclaim........" I was soloed at ****hrs "
Too many newbies are let loose way to soon, and "generally" trained in "user friendly conditions".

If training was extended, the other statistics would decrease.

[Racer]

I like what you have pointed out JTravis1, You have some very good points. When I was introduced to Gyro's everyone was bragging on how easy they were to fly and how safe they were. Made it sound like a guy could just hop in one and take it for a test flight just like taking a used car on a test drive. I feel this is a bad way to present gyro's. When I started training I was not taking it seriously enough because of all these misconceptions I had been told. Since then I have found these things take alot of skill and talent to fly, There are many things you must know and oh yeah, They do not fly themselves, If someone believes they do and tries it he or she could easily kill himself trying (if he does not roll before takeoff.)
I am still in training and I have alot of respect for those who have become good gyro pilots. I am sure that once you get trained and get some practice under your belt flying becomes second nature and they are very safe, but let me tell you from first hand experience in the beginning these things are like loaded mousetraps ready to snap and take you out.
I suggest when telling people about there safe characteristics emphasize in the hands of a trained pilot.

[Vance]

Hello Andre,

I am sorry you misunderstood. There are any number of books that can give you a complex way to calculate expected performance of a helicopter. There are also several sources to predict gyroplane performance. When I use these I do not get the 50% performance disparity that you describe.

My experience with helicopters and gyroplanes also does not back up your statement.

That doesn’t make you wrong, I am sharing my opinion.

You have not presented your numbers or your method of reaching your conclusions. I don’t see the value in presenting mine.

Thank you, Vance