Start of the end.

[automan1223]

I believe we will see the end of the oil economy as we know it. For starters high prices will force other companies on the sidelines to get going and perfect other technologies. Ever since I started turning a wrench, and my love of airships I knew the power of hydrogen. Unfort, the hindenburg gave hydrogen an undeserving bad name. Anyone who does research on this disaster will come to find that the skin of the airship was the blaze everyone sees. With fuel prices going nuts I think that the hydrogen economy will spell the beginning of the end for oil rich nations. With the ability to generate hydrogen from h20. No country will have a stranglehold on the worlds economy.

Of course it will take some time but hydrogen can convert most gasoline engines. I know they are working on fuel cells but the reality is electric motors have limits and there will still be a lot of old iron that could benefit from conversions.

However the dark side of this is that the gov is cracking down on small companies that are getting close on perfecting a hydrogen system. Since they may steal the dollars from large corps I will leave it to your imagination and search google on this trend.

google "hydrogen conversion" leads to some interesting reading.

Time is way overdue.

Jonathan

[Ga6riel]

Jonathan
I beleive that you are correct in your assumptions
and I think Birdy (posted elsewhere) is also right
the future fuel will be a captive of 2 things
how easy it is to convert from what we have now and
who gets the research and funding to make it happen on a scale that will be effective.

I cant see hydrogen in our future for anther 15 years at best, despite the promiss it offers, and we really need to act quicker than that.

PS: water is a valuable resource too

[Hognose]

Right now, hydrogen is not economical. However the cost trend for other fuels is up and the trend for H is down.

This might be a good time for Prof. Jim Dunn to get his moribund electric airplane project at WPI going again.

There is an interesting article (not mine) in Aero-News on fuel prices in Alaska. Basically, where they only get a barge of Avgas once a year prices are still low. Where they go through a lot, they're as high as $6 a gallon.

cheers

-=K=-

[robertstodaro]

"The skin is the blaze everyone sees"

You might want to look again. The skin goes up in a flash.

But imagine if that volume of gasoline went up in flames

[automan1223]

If you knew what they made the skin and other interior parts out of you find out the hydro is the least of the worry.

Hydro burns with a blue / clear flame.

The ship went up with orange and red flames. Very dramatic but I will let you do your own home work and learn that, like many other things the truth is not what you think it is.

Even old stale gas goes up with a hoomph. watch any car burn up and there is no way you can convince me any flamable fuel is safe yet we deal with it.

Jonathan

[Cobra Doc]

On "Nightline" tonight they will be featuring a company in Tennessee that makes alcohol kits. Amazing how time have changed. My late father-in-law, from Tennessee, did 11 months in jail for essentially the same thing. I wish I could remember their website. I'll check the radio station's website. They also sell conversion kits to convert any vehicle to straight ethanol.
Fox news also carried a segment on the electric street legal vehicles available here in the valley. They had about 10 models and most of them were under $10K. The 65 mile range didn't impress me, until I remembered the fact that I only drive 24 miles round-trip everyday when I car pool, which is just about every day. (My reasons for carpooling have nothing to do with saving me money, or time, or gas. My passenger/co-worker needs the help.)
Provided the alternative fuel makers keep "big oil" out it, we will see changes. The big oil companies had their chance and screwed it up. We don't need to protect foreign oil interests any more. Like "Detour" Dan Beech said this morning after helping interview the still-maker rep, while still up in the Cessna 172, "When Americans have their back to the wall, they punch a hole in the wall."

[david holmes]

Just had a report from a friend in Germany. Gasoline is $12 a gallon!!!!

WHY HAVEN'T THEY COME WITH ALTERNATIVE FUELS?

[Crash one]

UK fuel price works out at $6.17 per US gallon. I watched a programe on TV last night it was mentioned that sea water contains 30 times the energy of gasoline. If someone came up with a system to seperate the hydrogen/oxygen out of water quick enough to burn it in an engine the UK government would fence off the beaches & charge us fuel tax to flush the toilet!

[Brian Jackson]

If someone came up with a system to seperate the hydrogen/oxygen out of water quick enough to burn it in an engine the UK government would fence off the beaches & charge us fuel tax to flush the toilet!
That's been the Holy Grail of physics for eons. Unfortunately it requires more energy to separate the hydrogen molecules from the oxygen than you gain from the results, using traditional methods. However, I can envision massive offshore structures that "bend" to harness wave energy for hydrogen production. I can also envision massive pontoon networks anchored via cables to the sea floor to take advantage of tidal forces. None of these by themselves is a solution, but combined with wind, solar & geothermal energy I can see that collectively these technologies could help reduce our insatiable appetite for oil.

[scottessex]

That's been the Holy Grail of physics for eons. Unfortunately it requires more energy to separate the hydrogen molecules from the oxygen than you gain from the results, using traditional methods

Thank You Brian, that one small fact seems to be missed by most of the media and talking heads.


Maybe we can just go back to steam, and burn corn like all these new furnaces they advertise.
http://www.americasheat.com/

[Crash one]

That's been the Holy Grail of physics for eons. Unfortunately it requires more energy to separate the hydrogen molecules from the oxygen than you gain from the results, using traditional methods.
This is true Brian but perhaps the operative part is "using traditional methods"
It wasn't long ago that the Holy Grail was for man to fly like the birds. A while before that the notion that you could kill a deer from 100 yds by pointing a stick at it would have been laughed at. We did not grow wings, we did it a different way, nor did we use just a stick, we invented the gun. It will be a few years yet before the gas tank runs dry. I may be a hell of an optimist, but wave nor wind power is not going to run my car directly, not without an awful long extension lead, so hydrogen separation or batteries are going to improve massively or perhaps there is something else. One thing I am sure of, some radically forward thinking person is one day going to hit pay dirt, just like Wilbur & Orville.

[PW_Plack]

At the moment, most hydrogen fuel is derived from natural gas, which doubled in price itself during this past winter's heating season. So far, the use of electrolysis to get hydrogen from water has not become widespread.

The return in popularity of nuclear energy may change that. Nuke plants are not very efficient when run to match consumer use patterns. They can't just "throttle back," so they need to find something to do with the energy late at night. Separating water would be ideal, since as much power as needs to be diverted could be routed to that use.

We can't compare gasoline prices among countries. The real cost of gasoline doesn't vary by much worldwide. In Europe, most of the "cost" of gasoline is imbedded taxes, which will be there no matter what fuel is burned.

[M. Pearce]

Scott,
I worked at most of the local refineries around my hometown and was basically a boilermake/welder. With todays technology a steam powered car or truck would be the thing to have. Jay Leno has some old steam powered cars, get this, 700 ft pounds torqe at takeoff. Steam would be a very powerful alternative if it were out there for the ordinary folk to see. I have worked on some steam turbines that had main shafts 2' in diameter. Todays ceramics and long life chrome lined cylinders would make a steam engine run like a bat outta hell. And if you like air conditioning in a car, steam can power that too. Imagine having a steam powered turbine generator car reginerating it's batteries by burning a couple corn cobbs while your at work. Electric motors have all their torqe up front just like steam engines so tires would be a big problem if you have a teenager. I'd love to have a steam powered car. I bought an old military tent stove about four years ago and was converting it into a steam boiler. They call these little tent stoves Cherry Bombs because they glow red at night. I coiled a bunch of stainless tubing inside the top and sure put out some hot water. I'm going to make a high pressure stainless boiler tank for inside it later and hook it up to the tubing. The tank is gonna be to create steam and the tubing will then only be used to superheat the tanks steam. The tubing didn't hold enough water but it was promising. I was burning old motor oil cut with diesel but gonna try corn cobs next. Then when perfected that sucker is gonna get hooked up to a small generator. Boilers and steam is definately an overlooked source of power here in the U.S.

[Crash one]

I would go along with all you say Mark. Mobile steam power has been ignored for years in favour of the ease of turning a key for instant start/go systems.
If modern technology was used to build flash boilers, condensers etc it could work. what about the boiler in my shower? it's only about 4" square & don't take 5 secs to burn me if I let it! how much more improvement is needed to go superheated?

[JByrd]

(Repost, my original inflation data were wrong, sorry. The numbers and statements are fixed here in blue. Yes, sometimes I do have to admit my errors, even at work).

There is an easy to use inflation calculator located at:
http://www.westegg.com/inflation/



The idea for alternative fuels is not new.

There are a lot of unfounded rumors that companies have developed cheaper and easier to use alternative fuels. I hear the claims too. When people make claims I ask them to show me the data. Do not tell me what you think, show me the data and let the data speak to me. I have no commercial interests at stake.

The reason for dependency on oil is because oil is relatively easy to handle, so plentiful,and contains the highest BTU per pound density of any fuels, including alcohol.

Hydrogen is very dangerous to handle. Period. Just the shear gas friction of a hydrogen leak is enough to cause a flame. Several years ago the Shuttle was refueling with H2 and a fuel leak developed in the fueling system on the pad, crews inside and all. The whole structure should have exploded and burned right on the spot. Providence was watching.

I would politely suggest you read some parts of the document at:
http://www.hysafe.org/index.php?ID=68

to obtain a better feel for handling hydrogen. Refueling with H2 is and never shall be a routine matter. If you or I think otherwise, Mr. Dead will pay us a visit in short order.

Back to gasoline. In 1971 when I was about 12 years old on the ranch gasoline was 19 cents per gallon and off-road (farm) diesel was 12 cents per gallon.

The consumer price factor since then (1971 to 2006) has increased about 4.76 times. The 2006 dollar only purchases about 21 cents of what the 1971 dollar purchased.

So if gasoline was 19 cents per gallon then, the equivalent cost should be: 19 x (100/21) or $0.91 in todays dollars.

For diesel, road diesel (taxed) was 17 cents per gallon. The equivalent cost would be: 17 x (100/21) or $0.81 in todays dollars.

For most of my driving lifetime 1977-2006, fuel has consistently increased in price from what it was in 1971 (3 years before the oil embargo). For 1988 to 1997 I generally paid $1.55 to $1.83 per gallon. The rest of the world can only envy that price.

Right now we are paying $2.93 per gallon. I say so what. It is about (2.93/0.91) or 3.2 times the amount as it was in 1971. We can still afford it because not that many people are driving less. Some are, but still not that many.

(the following is still true)

We could plunder Iraq, and some of you have impled that is what the US has done. I would suggest to you that $2.93 here at home is proof that that is not what has happened. We pay for our fuel. We went there not to plunder the country but to stabilize it. Saddam is behind bars where he belongs. The Lion of Babylon is in a cage waiting to receive his just desserts.

I would suggest the statement "We must depend less on foreign oil" is a direct no-so-coded message that you and I will pay more at the pump to make that happen. The same president said long ago that he would be the education governor of Texas. The result of that is my parents are now paying $1.67 per $100 evaluation on FARMLAND. I only pay $1.32 per $100 evaluation here in Newport News. All those new schools in Texas look like palaces. A lot of contractors made a BIG DOLLARS by paying largely Mexican labor at under-market labor rates.

Jim B.

[GyroRon]

Gas is down to 2.68 a gallon at the station down the street from me. Yippe!