Engine Out

[Gyrobound]

I've been seeing this a lot in the posts and was wondering if this is something inherent in gyros in general or just certain engines. Everyone keeps saying don't fly over anything you can't land on if your engine goes out.

Which engines quit more than others?

How often can one expect their engine to go out in flight?

Is it something to do with the gas, filter, or just gyro engines?

How safe can a gyro be if everyone keeps having their engines going out?

I must admit, I haven’t been seeing a rash of falling gyros lately so does anyone have any facts or figures?

Just very very curious. One of questions that make you go HHHuuuuuummmmmm? :confused:

Scott

[gyropilot]

Scott,

I think the admonition not to fly over something you can't land on can be thought of as cheap "life insurance." This is not just a gyroplane thing. This same warning is passed around amongst ultralight and experimental aircraft circles as well.

Almost every pilot will experience at least one engine failure sometime in his or her flying career, whether it's in a fully certified aircraft, an experimental, or an ultralight. This is why the prudent pilot regularly practices simulated or real engine-out procedures... **** happens!

Just as with regularly practicing engine-out procedures, it follows then that it's also prudent to always have a suitable landing area always within gliding distance. Gyroplanes typically fly at low altitudes (for fun and to avoid faster fixed wing traffic) and they also have a relatively steep glide ratio... typically 4:1 to 5:1. They therefore don't have the luxury of gliding long distances to a suitable landing area, unlike a fixed wing aircraft cruising along at 10,000 feet with a 13:1 glide ratio (or whatever it is).

Now obviously some engine installations are more prone to failure than others, and some aircraft handle engine-out landings better than others. Gyroplanes are arguably one of the safest aircraft when it comes to dealing with an engine failure. You can't stall, you only need a small landing area, and your touchdown speed can be zero (if done correctly).

As far as rotorcraft engine installations go, many configurations are underpowered for the work they're required to perform... this is especially the case with helicopters. As a consequence some of engines are forced to operate at high power settings most of the time, which makes them prone to premature failure.

Combine overstressed engine setups with poor preventative maintenance, and you've got the preverbal "accident waiting to happen." Also, a lot of 2-stroke engines are used in single-place gyroplanes, and they absolutely DO NOT tolerate poor maintenance! In the world of ultralight and experimental aircraft, often proper maintenance is overlooked or completely ignored.

But an engine failure isn't inevitable and is completely avoidable. Still, the prudent pilot will have that "life insurance" by keeping a suitable landing area within gliding distance at all times whenever possible. The day you're greeted by silence from your engine is the day you'll be glad you did!

Best regards,

John L.

[rehler]

Scott, you asked: "How safe can a gyro be if everyone keeps having their engines going out? I must admit, I haven’t been seeing a rash of falling gyros lately so does anyone have any facts or figures?"

Here's my ideas:

First of all the main reason gyros are safe is because they do not "fall" out of the sky when the engine stops. A gyro with the engine shut off is still under complete control, lands the same as always and does not need a runway. These are good features, as opposed to other aircraft.

I have talked to ultralight pilots over the years and they seem to have the same number of engine outs as gyros, so it is not the type of aircraft that makes the difference. Natually you hear of gyro engine outs here since this is a rotorcraft forum.

IMHO another consideration is that, in general, gyro owners are "cheap" (I am). This is a main reason they are attracted to gyros, as gyros are probably the least expensive and easiest to build aircraft available. Very often "cheap" equals "unreliable" engines. Buying a $2000 auto engine and converting it is less reliable than buying an expensive aircraft engine, but because gyros are safe it is worth the savings. Buying a too small rotax 2-stroke engine and running it at its limits is less expensive and less reliable than buying a more powerful but more expensive one. Flying with a Rotax 447 or 503 to save money rather than a 582 is a common example. But gyros work a lot harder than fixed wing aircraft (much more drag) and need more power for the same weight aircraft.

[Gyrobound]

John, Ken, thanks for the reply. I was only being funny when I said I hadn't seen many gyros falling out of the sky lately. I know from the posts that gyros are the safest flying machine out there. I was just seeing a lot of references to engine failure and wanted to know if it was a common problem. I thought maybe due to the inherent nature of flying low and doing a lot of manuvers was a cause of these failures. I know when I finally get my gyro and am in the 40 hour flying period after certification, I will be practicing that proceedure a lot as well as getting familiar with the craft and my own abilities.

Thanks.
Scott

[gyropilot]

I know from the posts that gyros are the safest flying machine out there.Scott,

A slight correction:

Gyroplanes have the potential to be the safest aircraft flying if designed and built properly.

Sadly, there are a lot of them flying today which are very poorly designed, unstable, and as a result they're quite risky to operate. Many gyroplanes have literally "fallen" out of the sky due to lethal design flaws. This fact, along with a lot of pilot stupidity, has over the years earned gyroplanes a bad reputation among the general aviation community.

Regards,

John L.

[Heron]

Scott:
I have been following gyros pretty close for the last 3 years, have been in alot of fly-ins and never seen an engine out.
Heard of many: right at take off a wire came loose, a spark plug thrown out, seizure, dry shut offs.
The most famous is the Mac Attack, and a few Rotaxes years back seizing for improper lub (cheap practices again)
Never heard of a Subaru stop in mid air, a few hicups and thats all.
It seems we are getting to mature in this aviation category.
thanks
Heron

[Gyrobound]

John, you are right. The newer designs with correct HS and CLT are, or should be, the safest thing flying. As soon as you add the pilot element in you can shoot that theory all to h... fast. Since I haven't even taken my first flight in a gyro yet I want to get all the training and input I can in the safest machine with a reliable trainer. Searching through this forum is great as well. I have learned quite a bit just going through all the different topics as well as contacting some of the manucaturers. I am looking to buy the Sparrow Hawk kit when I have enough $ to do so. Have heard great things about the stability of that machine. So thanks for your input John and I'm sure we will cross paths again.

Scott

[Gyrobound]

Heron, that is nice to hear. The kit I was thinking of buying uses the Subaru engine. Not that it still couldn't happen I'm sure. Always good to be prepared.
Scott

[Mike Hook]

Scott,

I have the same reservations on engine out's. If I were to have one coming off what I want to be my grass runway on the farm it would be into a hollow with 60 ft trees. Not a pretty picture. That is the problem here in southeastern ohio there is nothing but trees, brush and hills we are surrounded by national forest with no roads. So a engine out is not a option.
I also am looking toward a sub 4 stroke for realiability.

Mike Hook

[Gyrobound]

Mike, tree's don't sound to soft to have to emergency land into. Ouch
Hey, on a different subject, What did you have to do to get a runway in your back yard? In a few years I will be moving to a more country setting and wanted to buy a place that had enough field acherage to put in a strip to fly out of. Do you need any special permits or approval or certification from FAA?
Scott

[Mike Hook]

Scott
I don't think there is any requirements for a grass runway on your farm. That is what I am working on right now I have a ridge top out by the cabin and it is open north / south for 700 feet. I know this is a little short but taking off into the wind and using a prerotor there should be no problem. I intend to shoot some grade here so it will drain off side to side and to make sure no humps in runway. I will use my tractor and rent a dozer as I need to work up ground and use 14 ft disk and cultipacker to made grass seed bed firm for planting some sort of a short grass that is resistant to drought and cutting.
I am sure some of the others have better ideas than me and are have much knowledge on the faa reg's if there is any at all for this sort of runway.

Mike

[Gyrobound]

Thanks Mike. I will start a new thread.

Scott

[StanFoster]

Scott: My first engine out was in a Bensen with a 90 horse mac. The float broke. I had seven more in that Bensen before I sold it. I had the ignition quit a couple of times. The bolts holding on a jug sheared off once. Fuel pump failure. Cracked a crankcase ionce. blew out a sparkplug.

Then I retired it and got my Air Command with a 532. Little did I know I was going to have 10 forced landings in that machine. I flew it ten hours and the ignition quit on me. Fixed it...quit again. Took the motor out...and had all new seals and igintion put in it. It ran fine for about 20 hours...then the ignition kept acting up. I was flying looking for a landing spot all the time. After my 18th engine out....I said nuts to it and put in a new 582 bluehead last May 15th. End of problems. I then logged 120 hours till I sold it Nov. 15th and bought my RAF to finish building.

I have my 40 hours flown off in my RAF without a hiccup or anything. I am on top of the maintenance and it looks like I may have something dependable. Time will tell...and I still never fly over anything I cant glide out of. I will have more engine outs....maybe 5 years from now...maybe tomorrow.

[CLS447]

Stan, Thanks for bringing that up. I still have a Mac 72 for sale, I havn't tried to fly with it yet,anyone else care to try?

My 447 has never quit since I bought it & started flying it in 85", "knock on wood". The only trouble I had was when I believed what a gauge told me & I tried to set the timing(dual points)! I'm convinced that the only way to do it is the way I ended up doin it...with the engine off the machine, on a running stand upright. That little engine has served me well,but she's getting old.Not bad considering I recieved it in damaged condition. Still flying with a badly chipped fan casing, but the fan shroud covers it.

I plan on flying the hell out of my new Sub EA-81. Such a beautifully simple engine! Damn Japs! I love Subarus!

Hey Stan, why do they want you to break the EJ-22 for 20 Hrs? Hows the carb heat working?

Oh and guys, if you want a backyard runway, I hope that you don't have neighbors because they will probably try to ruin your fun!

[StanFoster]

Scott: I was told the EJ22 has chrome rings that need to be seated in. I just followed directions and tied it to a tree for three days. Drove me nuts trying to work in my stairshop and doing a walk around every 20 minutes.

The carb heat is working well....my carb temp gauge is staying out of the yellow in this warmer weather...when I add carb heat...the temperature gauge goes up 5-6 degrees celsius.

[StanFoster]

Scott: One thing I have learned is not to get complacent with my gyro flying. After installing that new 582 in my Air Command and getting 30-40 hours in it.....euphoria starts to creep in and complacency with it. The longer I flew...the more I had to rely on memories of how serious an engine out can be.

I still fly with sufficient altitude to glide out of hostile landing sites. Last year I flew to Mentone in my Air Command and had to land at Monticello, Indiana for a fuel stop. There is a nice little body of water/trees to cross after my departure from the airport. I went up to 2500 feet as this was high enough to glide out of this hostile surroundings under me. I had a small headwind which had me figuring roughly the turn around/fly straight ahead point while crossing this water. No wind would make this point a little less than half way as just turning around costs altitude. A fairly stiff headwind could make this point 3/4 across or even further.

Now that I am getting confidence in my EJ22 in my RAF...I have to keep reminding myself this thing could quit anytime....yet it may run for years as well. I know I could more than likely cross Lake Michigan with it....but yet would never fly out more than I could dead stick it back.

Stan

[CLS447]

Stan, It's Chris not Scott. Is RAF actually installing the chrome rings or what and why?

Did you get any more carb ice is what I meant?

[Caribean_gyro]

Engine outs!! # so far. The first one in a side by side aircomand 532 landed in a swamp. ALmost dye due to quick sand not the gyro. The gyro was dismantled and pulled in a small boat. second time I spit a gasket in my MAC but landed back in the airport OK. Third time a check valve broke and fule was going back to the tamk vs the 2 carbs in my MAC. LAnded next to a 100 foot radio station in this hillbilly porch.

Does who know me knows my face is always read but the house owner frak out seeing an martian dress in orange blakc glose and full face helmet land flawlessly in his front yard.

Bottom line practice,parctice and more practice. as Stan said alwasy thiknk she will quite stay awake
Chuck P. :rolleyes:

[StanFoster]

Stan, It's Chris not Scott. Is RAF actually installing the chrome rings or what and why?

Did you get any more carb ice is what I meant?
Chris...sorry about the name mixup..I had just posted something to Scott and had you two mixed up. Cant tell you why the chrome rings...

As far as carb ice...I had a little last week. It was 37 out and the dewpoint was 34 if I recall. Anyway my carb temp gauge was reading about 0 celsius and after I pulled the carb heat on ....there was a little hesitation about 20 seconds later like some ice was melting and going through.

[CLS447]

Thanks Stan, I think I'm gonna try to replace My big K&N air filter with the same RAF airbox that you have. If it will mount on my Weber carb, it's the nicest carb heat setup I can find. I'll just weld a cuff with hose takeoff to my exhaust. Do you know what it would cost from RAF? Does it contain a K&N filter?

Then if I could mount the sensor in my carb for the temp gauge I would feel a lot better about the icing thing! I'm trying to get Larry B. to remove his airbox so I can try it out for fitment before I go & order one.

[KenSandyEggo]

Chris, the filter that came with the carbureted engines was bought by RAF at the Granger Farm store in town. Linda told me this one time when I called to find out what it was. They had no idea. After a lot of parts catalogue research, I found the manufacturer and the NAPA equivalent. I have the number at the hangar if anyone needs it.

If anyone has the RAF muffler, the baffles inside will eventually fall apart and you actually will be getting heat to the carb constantly. The exhaust system is made from mild steel. I had the thing rewelded a couple time for cracks, but fixing the inner baffles would have been a major project, so I had a couple headers made and attached 2 Super Trapps and tossed the original. The setup worked so well for me, that Jim Mayfield decided to offer the same thing with the Sparrowhawks. They get the headers from the guy that made mine and he can attach a carb heat box on one of the manifolds if you're still using a carb. I think there are some pics of my setup on my website.

[CLS447]

Ken,you don't mean the whole airbox,do you? Was it just a paper element? If you could give me the part# I would just get the K&N replacement right away.

After a bit of surfing I found a supplier that had several different Supertrapp tunable endcaps in different diameters to just weld onto the ends of you tubes, not the megaphone ones. They werent cheap, maybe $75-$100 each, and I already had the stainless parts from Joe Souza for the oval can setup.So I'll give this a try. I'm hoping for quiet but tunability for performance would be nice. How much more performance can you get out of a 4 stroke EA-81 by tinkering with the exhaust? I don't know.

When money allows, I will need an exhaust system for my KB-2 with EA-81. I think I'll get a pair of them and make 2 short pipes similar to yours. I like the idea that they won't be near the radiator, & they probably won't weigh as much. Then I can screw around with the amount of discs in the ends so I can squeeze the possible 400HP out of it! ha

If I need just a little bit more performance out of my EA-81, instead of jumping right to the EJ , I would love to get a Red Prince P-tip like yours! But it's a big commitment for the Questionable gains. What made you switch from Warp Drive to the Prince? Thanks buddy!

[KenSandyEggo]

Yes, Chris, it's a paper element. I don't believe K&N has one that will fit. At least we couldn't find one. I found mine at NAPA. I'll get the number for you in a day or two. It's made buy some obscure company, but NAPA carries the equivalent.

As to Trapp mufflers, if anyone gets the megaphone type like mine and mounts them vertically, be sure to take them apart (easy when they're new), and remove all the Fiberglas packing. Even though they advertise it as sustaining great heat, it will cinder up and fall to the bottom and clog the discs. When your normally 5K turning engine will only turn 4K, you'll remember that you forgot to take out the packing. I found that the more disks in the Trapp, the better the performance. More disks gives more rpm at full throttle.

I tried to answer about the Prince in another thread. I think I got it because it was supposed to be quieter, which it is. The airport rats thought I got some kind of a new muffler system. I also found that the increased thrust on the take-off roll was very noticeable. Top speed doesn't mean much on a draggy gyro, but a hangar neighbor got one after seeing mine for his Lancair 235. He picked up 15 knots on his top end. :eek:

[Gyrobound]

Well guy's it sounds like the subaru engine is tops here and I guess I've never seen a subaru on the side of the road now that I think of it. Stan, I hope your luck holds out on the engine never quiting since 85. We can all only hope that is the case.
Great to hear from everyone.

Scott

[StanFoster]

Scott: You must have read something wrong. I have had 18 engine outs since 1985...not waiting for my first one. :eek: Stan

[Gyrobound]

OOOppps sorry Stan, guess your luck ran out a long time ago than. Glad to see you made it through all 18 though. Not looking forward to even one but will most definatly be prepared if I do. Training, training, training. Can't beat it.

Scott