Bensen Plans

[Kingchocolate]

Where can someone get a set of Bensen Plans?

Thank You
Scott

[scottessex]

From an old gyro pilot!

They are hard to get, KB plans are hard to get also.

I used to have a set I haven't run across them yet since we moved.

[WHY]

Scott if you have not started building yet I would recommend a improved version of this style, the falcon by Neil Carnes of Rotorhawk, it has the dropped keel.

[EI-GYRO]

Try www.vortechonline.com/ You should find all you need.

[scottessex]

Scott if you have not started building yet I would recommend a improved version of this style, the falcon by Neil Carnes of Rotorhawk, it has the dropped keel.

Been there done that!
I started with a KB3/bensen
then I crashed it on an engine out takeoff/hard landing.

Then I built a falcon style gyro, and the nose wheel broke off and it cartwheeled, So I decided to stop building and just buy something that was already flying.

I fly a Soma now. I am so much more happier that I am not stuck building in the hangar when the weather is so nice.

[Kingchocolate]

Thanks for the replies. I have a Bensen style aircraft. I was just wanting some plans for it. Or some plans close to it.


Thank You
Scott

[rgraffeo]

Scott,
Talk to Rod he had some plans.

[M. Pearce]

Kingchocolate,
Love that name and did notice your from Louisiana. Anyway, check ebay now and then but watch out for incomplete copies being sold. Check out the Gyrobee for a more up to date design. Gyrobee plans are FREE I think too. Did I say the magic word FREE loud enough! Bensen is old school and that's cool but it's also an unsafe old design too. But if you already have one, good luck finding the plans.

[Friendly]

Scott, Scott, Scott.??

Bill may have a set for sale. He had several that was used for a fund raiser for the club. I bought one for $20. So if you are my way call me and we can copy what you need. Arlene is still typing the Bensen Books to computer so we can put them in PDF.
Tried to call you yesterday to fly at Pollock!!! Beautiful breeze straight down the runway. Call me. 308-2400

[Charles]

Hello Mr. Kingchocolate.
I have the whole Bensen plan with the building instruction books. I can make some photocopies and mail them to you if you wish.
My email: cgc@videotron.ca

Charles Gagne
Quebec city
Canada

[Ron Iaconis]

Kingchocolate,
Love that name and did notice your from Louisiana. Anyway, check ebay now and then but watch out for incomplete copies being sold. Check out the Gyrobee for a more up to date design. Gyrobee plans are FREE I think too. Did I say the magic word FREE loud enough! Bensen is old school and that's cool but it's also an unsafe old design too. But if you already have one, good luck finding the plans.
Bensen Plans are NOT unsafe.

[giro5]

Benson plans and Benson Gyro glider building instructions with operation and flight manuals and Benson gyro copter engine installation construction and Flight manuals are availabe from vortech in Fallston MD. web prismz.com for about a 100 bucks -

The design is old but from the number still in use I don't think outdated. Put a good HS back on the keel or vert stab area and modern rotors and how many mutated clones are there out there. Or maybe I just need to get to Benson days or Mentone to get educated.

[giro5]

Scott if you have not started building yet I would recommend a improved version of this style, the falcon by Neil Carnes of Rotorhawk, it has the dropped keel.
Can someone provide me with a web site for Neil / Rotorhawk?

[Aussie_Paul]

Benson plans and Benson Gyro glider building instructions with operation and flight manuals and Benson gyro copter engine installation construction and Flight manuals are availabe from vortech in Fallston MD. web prismz.com for about a 100 bucks -

The design is old but from the number still in use I don't think outdated. Put a good HS back on the keel or vert stab area and modern rotors and how many mutated clones are there out there. Or maybe I just need to get to Benson days or Mentone to get educated.

Those plans I saw from Vortec 6 months ago were a very early Bensen with a spindle head. The guy who paid $100 for them realised, after a couple of days and flights with me, that his pride and joy plans were so out of date and dangerous.

fwiw. Aussie Paul.:)

[Ron Iaconis]

I see that Vortech is a blend of many products,,,,,,,,I believe that they are selling old,,,,out dated Bensen stuff. I looked at their web site and cannot understand the complex and confusing way that they sell RotorHawk/Vortech blades,,,and other stuff. It as my son shared with me that they have bought up a bunch of different manufactures stuff and are marketing the stuff.,

[M. Pearce]

Ron Iaconis

Bensen Plans are NOT unsafe.


Any set of plans that have not been updated to include CLT, redundant mast or Horizontal stabilizer mods is unsafe. Air Command has addressed the issue as has many others. Can you tell me then when was the last time Bensen plans have been updated to todays standards?. Ken Brock followed up with his KB's but they were not bensens then were they. If it makes you feel batter I'll re-word it. Bensen plans are not unsafe until an unsafe aircraft is built from them. Bensen Gyro's are unsafe to todays standards in my opinion!

[Ron Iaconis]

Basically, a Bensen has been flying for over 30 years very well thank you. It doesn't need a horiz stab,,,and it doesn't need CLT mod. Many, many a gyro flyer has crashed and burned in a CLT, Horiz stab machine because of many flyer errors and ineptness. So, how do we " MODIFY" the pilot?????????? Put a Horiz Stab on his " back" ? or position his prop directly attached to his physical back? Hummmm?????? Today many flyers are crashing and burning just due to their errors,,,,with all having a horiz stab and the machine being constructed with the CLT idea. Ken Brock's latest design ( the KB3 ) had the CLT high just like the " Bensen" is accused of being, and many a pilot/flyer has flown the KB3's successfully. Again,,,,,your opinion is just that.

[Ga6riel]

Ron
You will find thats not just Mr Pearce's opinion but the 'qualified' opinion of many here. Isnt it a bit like flying the Wright Flyer when you could have been flying something more modern.
The design of gyros has improved since the innovative Bensen first appeared.
The accident rate gives you better odds when a correctly designed fitted stabiliser is present.

[jlrelp]

I just went straight to Neil to get my Falcon kit hear bad things about Vortech and ther plans

[Ron Iaconis]

Ron
You will find thats not just Mr Pearce's opinion but the 'qualified' opinion of many here. Isnt it a bit like flying the Wright Flyer when you could have been flying something more modern.
The design of gyros has improved since the innovative Bensen first appeared.
The accident rate gives you better odds when a correctly designed fitted stabiliser is present.
So, basically ,,,,with many saying the same thing,,,,,that makes it correct? huh? See assiciated thread (http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=109167&posted=1#post109167)
Let's see,,,,Marion Springer, Ken Brock, Dr. Bensen, Roger Wood, Dave Prater, Ron Menzie, Johnny Hay, Carl Schneider, Bull Brown, and thousands ,,,more ,,,,all flew or are still flying a basic Bensen. All of them flew without a horiz stab,and only a close CLT with no ,,,,repeat NO "Tall Mast". The tall mast basically determined that a horiz stab be installed and CLT be more desirable.
With a tall mast the gyro will " Pendulum" that is it will " Swing" fore and aft as power is added or a wind gust hits it. My first notice of this pendulum effect was when I took my son't Rotax 503 gyro with a large diameter prop tall mast and when I took it out for a test flight( It had NO Horiz Stab and wasn't a CLT design) I landed and mentioned to Ron Menzie about the feeling that the machine swung to and fro,,,,,Ron Menzie said to me "Ohhh, I should have mentioned to you that a tall mast machine will swing to and fro" .
So,,,,We are all talking about different " Beasts" All of the newer designs have " Changed" from the Brock/Bensen designs to a very very Tall Mast and a prop thrust that is ( thrust in pounds, say about 50 to 100 pounds stronger than a Mac)this is basically what demanded the " Re=-Vamp" in a gyro's construction,,,,,,
The only resason no one mentions this is because all ( most) have decided to go with a re-drive,,,,and 60 plus inch prop and very tall mast.

[brett s]

Your "pendulum effect" above is from plain old poor design - large thrustline offset & no hstab - not from a tall mast.

[Timchick]

I don't think the "tall mast" dominators have that pendulum effect. How come they don't?

[Ron Iaconis]

Your "pendulum effect" above is from plain old poor design - large thrustline offset & no hstab - not from a tall mast.
Wrong, wrong, wrong

[Ron Iaconis]

I don't think the "tall mast" dominators have that pendulum effect. How come they don't?
Probably because of the horiz stab and high CLT,,,( I said that wrong yes tks GyroRon,,,the prop thrust line is above the CLT),That's why the two are nesessary to stop the pendulum effect of the tall mast and powerful thrust effect

[GyroRon]

Ron first off start using the correct words in your posts and it will gain you more credibility.

CLT is short for Center Line Thrust This means the thrust line ( which is a line drawn forward from the center of the prop ) is "Centered" on the aircrafts Vertical center of gravity.

What I think you mean in your posts is simply thrustline placement. Use the right words and your posts will make better sence.

[GyroRon]

I agree with Ron kinda.... A STOCK late model Bensen with the Mac engine and short direct drive prop is a safe machine.

Is it as safe as a modern gyro such as a Sportcopter, Dominator, tall Aircommand??? No. Without a proper horizontal stab the gyro is more prone to PIO which could lead to rotor unloading which is bad news in any gyro.

A Stock Bensen with the addition of a good horizontal stab will be just as safe in my opinon as a Dominator or any of the current modern gyros. Same thing with KB-2 model gyros which are not much more than a knockoff of the late model Bensen.

What people have to understand is that with the Mac engine and a short 48 inch prop, the Bensen or KB-2 gyro is Center line Thrust or nearly so. Built with modern type controls, and construction guidelines it is just as modern and safe as anything else on the market.

The problem with a Bensen is alot of people have been or will be tempted to take off the troublesome Mac engine and bolt on a more reliable and easier to use Rotax engine, or VW or even Subaru. All of these non mac engines require a much larger prop, and to make the prop work on the Bensen gyro the engine and THRUSTLINE has to be raised to allow the prop to clear the lower keel tubes. Raising the prop and engine but not the pilot results in a HIGH THRUSTLINE gyro which can easily BUNT OVER if the rotor is ever allowed to unload while the engine is making thrust. This is the problem with the KB-3, and the early Aircommands....

[brett s]

Yup, like Ron says you've got to look at the whole design - a tall mast in itself doesn't cause anything. The relationship of thrustline to cg is an important one that gets ignored on many older designs (like the original Air Command stuff) that grew out of the Bensen layout.

You can certainly compensate for small thrustline offsets with a horizontal stab - you're also better off with one on a true centerline thrust machine for that matter. Stable also doesn't mean less manueverable, as some people insist...

[GyroRon]

A tall mast does matter.... What a tall mast does is it raises the weight of the rotor, the rotorhead, and the upper portion of the pre rotator higher. Doing this it effectively raises the gyros Vertical center of gravity.... The tall mast is what helps the gyrobee to be a reasonable close to CLT gyro

[GyroRon]

I will add more fuel to this fire and hopefully Ron will not take this in a negative way, but his thoughts on this seem typical of the typical " Old Timer "

Alot of people were wrong about what they felt and what they thought was the cause of the way things flew - such as the way Rons sons gyro flew and even Ron Menzies take on it - and the reason some of the accidents happened.

Thanks to people like Chuck Beaty, most of the people who have been in the hobby for the last few years and especially those that have followed the internet forums, most of us have come to understand the myths of gyroplanes through science. For those that haven't been a part of the forums or who haven't had a chance to look at gyros from a scientific point of view it would be easy to be mistaken about all the what why and if's that gyroplanes can bring up.

I have had the chance to fly a LOT of gyroplanes. I have flown gyros with one seat, two seats, side by side, tandem, open cockpit, enclosed cockpit, Two blade rotor, Three blade rotor, Tractor, Pusher, Rotax power, Mac Power, VW power, Subaru power, Lycoming power, Mazda power, Hirth power, Direct Drive, Reduction drive, Center line thrust, High thrustline, Low thrustline, With Horizontal, without Horizontal, etc..... etc.... etc.... Saying all that, everything that the people like Chuck Beaty, Doug Riley, Udi, and many others... people who use math and science to prove their points.... Everything they have said has proved right to me by my observations flying so many different types of gyros.

[giro5]

tried twice and replys didn't take. must be if you disageree with the King Ron A you get bumped. Ron Iaconis stand by your guns. Ill bet there are more benson style and benson style trained gyro pilots than all others combined. Ill bet if you are looking for pilots with more than 400 hours in gyros benson style pilots far exceed any others. But hey, what does Ernie Boyette, Ken Brock, Chuck Vanick, Marion Sprintger, Ron Heron know.

[GyroRon]

giro5, what the heck is your point? Why would you call me the king, because I have a lot of posts?

I never said Bensen gyros were dangerous. And sure there has been alot of them flown and alot of people to fly them. But the fact of the matter remains that alot of the people who taught themselves to fly gyros back in the early days did not then and many still don't now, Have a good understanding of what makes a gyro tick.

90 percent of the time it is the "old timers" who come up with stuff like Horizontal stabs aren't needed or that they don't offer any positive benifits to a gyro. Or that a gyro is like a pendulum, and that it swings under the rotor like a weight shift trike.

Look at a Aircommand gyro. Look at what they looked like when Dennis Fetters first came out with the Aircommand, and look at what they look like today. It is a major difference between the two. Look at how long that change took to take place. People just didn't know better back then.

Back in the glory days of gyros, back in the 70's, 80's and even the very early 90's alot of people flew alot of hours in gyros that today would be deemed either totally unsafe, or substandard to todays modern gyro. That does not make a unsafe gyro safe, it just shows that a pilot can learn to fly a unsafe gyro and if that pilot flys with caution and care he may rack up alot of years and alot of hours flying that gyro.

[Ron Iaconis]

Ron first off start using the correct words in your posts and it will gain you more credibility.

CLT is short for Center Line Thrust This means the thrust line ( which is a line drawn forward from the center of the prop ) is "Centered" on the aircrafts Vertical center of gravity.

What I think you mean in your posts is simply thrustline placement. Use the right words and your posts will make better sence.
Tks Gyro Ron,,,I belive I said it correctly ,,,check my words inside the brackets on previous comments,,,up above.....sorry

[gyromike]

Tks Gyro Ron,,,I belive I said it correctly ,,,check my words inside the brackets on previous comments,,,up above.....sorry

Ron,

In your correction,

You stated that the thrustline is above the CLT.
I believe you are referring to the CG (Center of Gravity).

The thrustline can be above the CG. That makes it a high-thrustline.
The thrustline can be below the CG, making it a low-thrustline.
Or it can be centered on (or nearly so) the CG, making it a CLT.

Also, a gyro cannot be a pendulum. A pendulum requires a fixed point in space.
A 500 lb. gyro hanging from a 50 lb. set of rotors is not a pendulum. The rotors move with the gyroplane.

Here's an experiment you can perform.
Find an overhead rail with a light trolley on it, and a chain or rope.
Swing from the rope crossways to the rail. The trolley is "fixed" in the direction you are swinging, and you have a pendulum.

Try to swing in the same direction that the trolley moves and it will center itself above you and you won't swing anymore, because the anchor point is no longer fixed. Just like a gyro's rotors.

[giro5]

Ron A. I was just a little frustrated that for some reason my posts weren't going through, nothing personal. I thought you guys were piling on Ron Iaconis and the Benson style gyro. I just think the Benson style deserves a little respect despite its shortcomings. I am putting together a kb2 that will have a MAC, Ron Heron's tail group, and 22'ft Rotor Hawk blades. Origionally I wanted one as near to Ken Brocks as I could build except with a muffler but since Marie has closed up shop I am going to make some changes. Mine will also have controls (pedal and cyclic) and a seat tank like the Dominator. I do want to thank the forum for helping me find Neil for the blades and Tom Milton for the seat, and Rick W. for help with the MAC and I forget now who it was that posted the info on the freon can muffler recently.

[Ron Iaconis]

Ron,

In your correction,

You stated that the thrustline is above the CLT.
I believe you are referring to the CG (Center of Gravity).

The thrustline can be above the CG. That makes it a high-thrustline.
The thrustline can be below the CG, making it a low-thrustline.
Or it can be centered on (or nearly so) the CG, making it a CLT.

Also, a gyro cannot be a pendulum. A pendulum requires a fixed point in space.
A 500 lb. gyro hanging from a 50 lb. set of rotors is not a pendulum. The rotors move with the gyroplane.

Here's an experiment you can perform.
Find an overhead rail with a light trolley on it, and a chain or rope.
Swing from the rope crossways to the rail. The trolley is "fixed" in the direction you are swinging, and you have a pendulum.

Try to swing in the same direction that the trolley moves and it will center itself above you and you won't swing anymore, because the anchor point is no longer fixed. Just like a gyro's rotors.

I am probably using the wrong terms as far as pendulum and porposing......but to the pilot in the seat when switching from a short mast mac /Bensen type machine,,,,to a tall mast Rotax large prop machine the feeling is very noticable. I felt as Ron Menzie also related to me that I felt like I was "swinging fore and aft" I call that being on a pendulum,,,,,forget about the trolley thing I was in my Bensen Mac short mast and then proceeded to fly the tall mast machine and I felt a very noticable swinging motion fore and aft.....I call that a pendulum feeling,,,,,,call it what you may,,,,I call it a pendulum sensation.

[scottessex]

call it what you may,,,,I call it a pendulum sensation

Sounds like PIO.:)

[Ron Iaconis]

Ron A. I was just a little frustrated that for some reason my posts weren't going through, nothing personal. I thought you guys were piling on Ron Iaconis and the Benson style gyro. I just think the Benson style deserves a little respect despite its shortcomings. I am putting together a kb2 that will have a MAC, Ron Heron's tail group, and 22'ft Rotor Hawk blades. Origionally I wanted one as near to Ken Brocks as I could build except with a muffler but since Marie has closed up shop I am going to make some changes. Mine will also have controls (pedal and cyclic) and a seat tank like the Dominator. I do want to thank the forum for helping me find Neil for the blades and Tom Milton for the seat, and Rick W. for help with the MAC and I forget now who it was that posted the info on the freon can muffler recently.

Hi giro5,
Have you considered the Expansion Chambers,,,They give some added power over the freon type? Just a thought

[Ron Iaconis]

Sounds like PIO.:)
I suppose that in a PIO the gyro is on a roller coaster type attitude in that the gyro goes down and then starts to go up repeatedly and finally the blades will unload enough to flap. This to me is a rather small fore aft sensation that I felt when going directly from the short mast to the long mast machines ,,,all in about say one or two hour between flying both.

[jlrelp]

Neal does not have a web site .
his email is nealfalcon@aol.com
I also have his phone number if you want to email me and i will reply with it.

richarjl@yahoo.com

hope this helps

[Ron Iaconis]

Ron,

In your correction,

You stated that the thrustline is above the CLT.
I believe you are referring to the CG (Center of Gravity).

The thrustline can be above the CG. That makes it a high-thrustline.
The thrustline can be below the CG, making it a low-thrustline.
Or it can be centered on (or nearly so) the CG, making it a CLT.

Also, a gyro cannot be a pendulum. A pendulum requires a fixed point in space.
A 500 lb. gyro hanging from a 50 lb. set of rotors is not a pendulum. The rotors move with the gyroplane.

Here's an experiment you can perform.
Find an overhead rail with a light trolley on it, and a chain or rope.
Swing from the rope crossways to the rail. The trolley is "fixed" in the direction you are swinging, and you have a pendulum.

Try to swing in the same direction that the trolley moves and it will center itself above you and you won't swing anymore, because the anchor point is no longer fixed. Just like a gyro's rotors.


OK,,,,when I say CLT I am refering to the center of pressure of the pilot into the airstream along with the center of thrust of the prop. This reference is mentioned and my way of understanding is to have it so that if the blades become unloaded( which should never happen in the first place) the blade drag that keeps the gyro( mast position along with the pilot) from either being pushed forward ( top of mast being pushed top forward and blades hit prop) or rather a more even pressure ( AKA CLT) and the prop thrust will not push the top of the mast but rather push the mast more evenly and ending up in not having a PIO or PPO event. I hope I made a tiny little bit of sense!!!!

[giro5]

Ron I. I am pretty sure I can make the freon can muffler but wouldn't have a clue on tuned pipe. Also thought about a rotax or racing gokart muffler. My main goal is noise reduction having heard Ken Brocks machine at Marysville a few years back. I was driving 5 miles away and lost till he got it up in the air. Found the airport easily after that.

[Ron Iaconis]

I am probably using the wrong terms as far as pendulum and porposing......but to the pilot in the seat when switching from a short mast mac /Bensen type machine,,,,to a tall mast Rotax large prop machine the feeling is very noticable. I felt as Ron Menzie also related to me that I felt like I was "swinging fore and aft" I call that being on a pendulum,,,,,forget about the trolley thing I was in my Bensen Mac short mast and then proceeded to fly the tall mast machine and I felt a very noticable swinging motion fore and aft.....I call that a pendulum feeling,,,,,,call it what you may,,,,I call it a pendulum sensation.
A set of 50 pound blades when spinning around at almost 300 RPM's supports that 500 pounds of machine and you,,,,it's " NOT " a set of 50 pound blades!!!!!Dahhhhhhh

[gyromike]

A set of 50 pound blades when spinning around at almost 300 RPM's supports that 500 pounds of machine and you,,,,it's " NOT " a set of 50 pound blades!!!!!Dahhhhhhh

Uhhh....yeah, actually it still is.

If the blades weigh 50 lbs. at rest, then they weigh 50 lbs. while spinning at 300 RPM.

They may generate 500 lbs. of lift, but they still 'weigh' 50 lbs.

And a 500 lb. machine hanging from a 50 lb. set of rotors does not make a pendulum.

[M. Pearce]

Me, I just figure if your lookin for plans at least get something updated. Updated in turn does mean a little bit safer than old plans from way back. Heck I have a full set of Bannick Gyrocopter plans but I'm not going to build one even though Bannick did mention things like CLT back then. I haven't heard of one single fatality because of a bannick gyrocopter accident. It just makes sence to build something that has todays hardware intelectual upgrades included. We also have to remember that back then folks built their own wooden rotor blades as well. I am also sure the FAA was more relaxed back then too. I can only immagine and wonder how many accidents went un-recorded. Sure bensens were the safest in their day and it surely surprizes me that people back then read a book and tought themselves to fly. I'm very thankfull that Mr. Bensen did what he did and gave us one of the greatest gifts of homebuilt flight. It's just that I believe safer more updated gyro's are out there now. Mr. Bensens design to me is a perfect balance as one can get between safety and performance. I just prefer an updated aircraft with a bit more of a safety margin to offset the tiniest bit of potential pilot error.

[Ron Iaconis]

Uhhh....yeah, actually it still is.

If the blades weigh 50 lbs. at rest, then they weigh 50 lbs. while spinning at 300 RPM.

They may generate 500 lbs. of lift, but they still 'weigh' 50 lbs.

And a 500 lb. machine hanging from a 50 lb. set of rotors does not make a pendulum.

Man,,,,I cannot believe you just put your foot in your mouth,,,,,,,!!!!!!!!!!!
Listen ,,,,did you ever try to spin a gyro wheel( all spacecraft and airplanes navigate with some aid of a " gyro") take a bicycle wheel,,,,hold the axles,,,,,have some one spin the tire,,then try to move the damn axle. It presents much resistance,,,even though the wheel weighs only ,,,say 2 pounds ,,,the wheel presents the gyroscopic stability that " resists" any movement what so ever!!!!!!

[Timchick]

Ron I, For those looking for expansion chambers do you know where any are?

[Friendly]

Scott Bordleon
Did you find or get a set of Bensen Plans? Congratulations on your new Student Certificate for the sport pilot.

[GyroRon]

Giro, no problem. And no matter what anyone says, if you pay close attention to what I say here in bold print.... A STOCK BENSEN WITH THE MAC ENGINE, SHORT DIAMETER PROP AND THE ADDITION OF PROPER AND EFFECTIVE HORIZONTAL STABILIZER IS A SAFE AIRCRAFT AND IS JUST AS SAFE AS ANY PUSHER GYRO THAT PLANS OR A KIT CAN BE OBTAINED

Modifiy the Bensen gyro by changing the gyros VERTICAL CENTER OF GRAVITY TO THRUSTLINE RELATIONSHIP and you now have a gyro that is scientifically proven to be more dangerous than it was in the stock configuration.

Adding a Four stroke engine requires a larger prop and this will make it less safe.

Adding a Rotax or other reduction drive equipped engine ( that requires a larger prop ) and it is less safe.... big time!

When building the " MODERN " Bensen you need to ditch the boat tank and go with a typical gyro seat tank. Also you need to add sometype of horizontal stab. And you need to make sure to use a offset Gimble rotorhead.

GyroMikes Bensen is a perfect example - well almost - of what YOUR bensen should look like if a person sets out to build one today or to restore and update a older one. The one thing Mikes lacks is a Effective Horizontal Stab. He did move the rock shield from under the prop to the rear of the keel under the Rudder and if does help the gyro, but not as much as a truely effective stab.

Giro, from your description of your gyro it should be a real winner and as safe as anything else out there. Be proud of it, I would be!

[gyromike]

Man,,,,I cannot believe you just put your foot in your mouth,,,,,,,!!!!!!!!!!!
Listen ,,,,did you ever try to spin a gyro wheel( all spacecraft and airplanes navigate with some aid of a " gyro") take a bicycle wheel,,,,hold the axles,,,,,have some one spin the tire,,then try to move the damn axle. It presents much resistance,,,even though the wheel weighs only ,,,say 2 pounds ,,,the wheel presents the gyroscopic stability that " resists" any movement what so ever!!!!!!

Ron,

I'm aware of how a bike rim will react when spun.
But we arent' dealing with bicycle rims. We're talking rotors.

If that were the case with our rotors, you wouldn't be able to tilt the disk in flight, would you?

When you move the stick, you apply a cyclic input to the rotors, changing the pitch of the blades. This causes them to fly to a new orientation. They are not forced to a new plane like a bicycle rim. The lift generated by the blades is enough to overcome this gyroscopic resistance, yet can be controlled with fingertip pressure.

And yes, they still weigh 50 lbs. even if they are spinning. ;)

[gyromike]

GyroMikes Bensen is a perfect example - well almost - of what YOUR bensen should look like if a person sets out to build one today or to restore and update a older one. The one thing Mikes lacks is a Effective Horizontal Stab. He did move the rock shield from under the prop to the rear of the keel under the Rudder and if does help the gyro, but not as much as a truely effective stab.

You're right, Ron A. (Damn...that was painful:D )

Sliding my rock guard back did help the handling. I have flown mine back-to-back with a stock KB-2, and I could tell the difference. The KB-2 would lag and overshoot the pitch inputs, where mine wouldn't.

Moving the stab into the propwash like a Ron Herron T-Tail would be better, and using an airfoil shaped stabilizer would be even better.

An symmetrical airfoil should generate ~2.5 times the lift of a flat plate stab.

I would still like to build a T-tail for my Bensen, I just have to buckle down and "get 'er done''.

[GyroRon]

Your gyro flew good, once you got the engine running for me! lol

[Dean_Dolph]

Man,,,,I cannot believe you just put your foot in your mouth,,,,,,,!!!!!!!!!!!Uh, Ron, wrong foot, wrong mouth! If Craig Wall visited here you would have made his day! You could have joined me as a charter member of his club.

Mike, is right; the rotor is included in the mass of the gyro. And, as such, is part of the mass that must be moved by any force applied around the center of mass.

When a high thrust line (HLT) machine loses lift, for what ever reason, it will want to rotate nose down (PPO) around the center of mass (CoM). PPO=power push over. CoM = center of gravity (Cg).

A high thrust line machine has been loosely defined as one that has the prop thrust line more than 2" above the CoM.

This means that when lift is lost, a force is being applied to over come the weight of the rotor, along with the rest of the machine. A center, or low, line thrust machine does not have this dangerous characteristic. This force is always present, as long as the engine is supplying thrust, but if lift is present then the pilot and/or horizontal stabilizer will compensate to hold the nose up. Most of the time......

A pure center line thrust (CLT) machine (I doubt if there is such an animal!) will have the prop thrust line passing right thru the CoM. It will only lose altitude without a change in attitude on loss of lift. Other factors may cause it to change attitude but not the loss of lift.

A near center line thrust machine (NCLT) has been loosely defined as a machine whose prop thrust line passes 2" above or below the CoM. An effective horizontal stabilizer makes this machine stable.

A low thrust line machine (such as the Dominator) has been loosely defined as a machine whose prop thrust line passes 2" or more below the CoM.

Ron, on your Bensen, did you mount your engine 3 degrees nose down? I understand that Dr. Bensen called for this in his building instructions in an attempt to make it a CLT machine. To bad he didn't recognize, or accept, that it needed an effective horizontal stabilizer.

[Ron Iaconis]

Yes, The common practice for quite a long time( 30 years maybe) has been to raise the prop end 3 degrees, and some say it was to keep the blades loaded, probably in todays language it meant to obtain CLT. But none the less, The boat tank is not a problem,,,,many even flew or fly with 2 ( two) boat tanks mounted on the keel.
And gyromike,,,,I am sorry but a set of 50 lb blades spinning at 300 RPM's and having a gyroscopic stability has nothing to do with being able to " move" it's pattern in flight. Take the spinning bicycle wheel,,,,,,it " CAN" be persuaded to move in any direction,,,,,,just that it resists the movement and there is a processional lag to the force presented to it. the blades present a force that is somewhat stable, and it is much more stable than the 50 pounds that they weigh in a " Static" moment......sorry Mike,,,,,you are incorrect!

[Ron Iaconis]

Ron I, For those looking for expansion chambers do you know where any are?
Well, 20 years ago I received a set from the original makers( Hulon Burneet) form near Macon GA. He doesn't make them anymore on a large scale. Some people have persuaded him to make a limited few. I took his pipes,,,,,took crate paper,and copied them, took pictures, and even drew sketches of them,,,,and that is how I have been able to fabricate my own. I have made two sets since then, the lates being made just last year. If you are handy with Oxy Act,,,,or mig then you can make your own,,,,,,Iused I think 24 gauge body shop sheet metal almost exclusively( headers/main pipes and even the 18 inch tail pipe were constructed with the 24 or 26 gauge sheet metal. I used steel rods to do my welding and where the flexible stainless steel is,,,I brased them in that area. I feel that anybody that has the time and small know how can do it very easily,,,,I did!

[brett s]

You really ought to do some studying on basic aerodynamics & physics, you're just plain wrong on the whole pendulum thing. It's an old misconception that's been beat to death, not just here on the forum.

[Ron Iaconis]

You really ought to do some studying on basic aerodynamics & physics, you're just plain wrong on the whole pendulum thing. It's an old misconception that's been beat to death, not just here on the forum.
You are welcome to your aerodynamics and physics theories just as well as I am,,,,,When you sit in a lawn chair,,,,and while you are flying ,,and the thing swings forwards and bachwards,,,,( like a peddulum) then that is what I call it,,,,,and whether we said it 30 years ago or today it still remains the same,,,,,I suppose since Chuck Yeager flew over Mac 1 a long time ago,,,,,,the physics and nomenclature all has changed since then because we are all so smarter now,,,,,,a pendulum is a pendulum is a pendulum.

PS HEY did you know that a GYRO COPTER is a " WEIGHT SHIFT " contraption????????

[Ron Iaconis]

Well, 20 years ago I received a set from the original makers( Hulon Burneet) form near Macon GA. He doesn't make them anymore on a large scale. Some people have persuaded him to make a limited few. I took his pipes,,,,,took crate paper,and copied them, took pictures, and even drew sketches of them,,,,and that is how I have been able to fabricate my own. I have made two sets since then, the lates being made just last year. If you are handy with Oxy Act,,,,or mig then you can make your own,,,,,,Iused I think 24 gauge body shop sheet metal almost exclusively( headers/main pipes and even the 18 inch tail pipe were constructed with the 24 or 26 gauge sheet metal. I used steel rods to do my welding and where the flexible stainless steel is,,,I brased them in that area. I feel that anybody that has the time and small know how can do it very easily,,,,I did!
Tim,,,,,I hope you got my message

[gyromike]

And gyromike,,,,I am sorry but a set of 50 lb blades spinning at 300 RPM's and having a gyroscopic stability has nothing to do with being able to " move" it's pattern in flight. Take the spinning bicycle wheel,,,,,,it " CAN" be persuaded to move in any direction,,,,,,just that it resists the movement and there is a processional lag to the force presented to it. the blades present a force that is somewhat stable, and it is much more stable than the 50 pounds that they weigh in a " Static" moment......sorry Mike,,,,,you are incorrect!

An spinning object may be more stable and resistant to changes in it's plane of rotation, but it's not any heavier than when it's at rest.

Let's use your 2lb. bicycle rim mentioned earlier.
Hold it parallel to the floor, and spin it up to 300 RPM.

It will be resistant to tipping, but does it get heavier in your hand?

Will it be harder to move it up and down, left and right, or forward and backward, as opposed to when it is not spinning?

The mass of the rim does not change because it is spinning.
The same goes for the rotors.

A 500 lb. gyro suspended from a 50 lb. set of rotors does not make a pendulum.

And gyroplanes are not weight-shift aircraft either. ;)

[Ron Iaconis]

Mike,
I really thought that you'd know better. But I will share with you the difference between a spinning bicycle wheel and a spinning set of rotor blades.
The wheel does not have any air foil nor lifting force. The air foil creates Lift, the bicycle wheel does not. The blades develop a mass of energy so far greater than the teeny weeny bike wheel. Bike wheel only spinning at about( hand spinning) 10 RPM's as the blades spin at 300 RPM's developing tons of force( outward and inward,,,centrifical/centripital) The gyroscopic force associated with the developed mass and the lifting force of the airfoil all combined ( Ready for this , Mike) develop a " FORCE" that " IS " " Resistant" to any other force acting UPON IT !!!!! and inthere we have a teeny weeny set of 50 pound rotorblades that actually can , do,,,,,and most assuredly " RESIST" any force upon them,,,,,,and when they do " Give In " to the force they relinquish their plane of rotation slightly lagging the initial point at which the force was introduced.
Physics class 101

[gyromike]

Mike,
I really thought that you'd know better. But I will share with you the difference between a spinning bicycle wheel and a spinning set of rotor blades.
The wheel does not have any air foil nor lifting force. The air foil creates Lift, the bicycle wheel does not. The blades develop a mass of energy so far greater than the teeny weeny bike wheel. Bike wheel only spinning at about( hand spinning) 10 RPM's as the blades spin at 300 RPM's developing tons of force( outward and inward,,,centrifical/centripital) The gyroscopic force associated with the developed mass and the lifting force of the airfoil all combined ( Ready for this , Mike) develop a " FORCE" that " IS " " Resistant" to any other force acting UPON IT !!!!! and inthere we have a teeny weeny set of 50 pound rotorblades that actually can , do,,,,,and most assuredly " RESIST" any force upon them,,,,,,and when they do " Give In " to the force they relinquish their plane of rotation slightly lagging the initial point at which the force was introduced.
Physics class 101

Ron,

I understand that the blades resist being tipped from their plane of rotation because of gyroscopic forces, but these forces do not cause the blades to get any heavier!

They still weigh the same as at rest. That has been my point all along.

You cannot have a pendulum when the anchor point weighs 1/10th as much as the mass hanging below it.

The 'swinging' you are feeling when you get into these 'tall-masted' machines with no stabilizer is the frame pivoting about it's Center of Gravity.

The frame is not swinging from the rotorhead like a porch swing. The machine is oscillating in pitch, pivoting around it's CG. While it does this, the rotors are moving forward and backward overhead, like sliding a dinner plate forward and backward on your kitchen table. (The same way the trolley I mentioned before will center itself over your body if you try to swing in the same direction as the rail).

This will happen with short-masted Mac-powered Bensens, or tall-masted Rotax-powered whatevers.

A horizontal stabilizer will damp out these oscillations on both machines, aligning the frame with the relative wind. Just like the tailfeathers on an arrow keep the shaft from flailing around when flying through the air.

[Ron Iaconis]

As long as the mast hangs from a gimble or spindle head,,,,it will forever " Swing" ! Listen to what you just printed,,,read it,,,,,,You say that the gyro moves about it's CG......welll,,,let me inform you that the MAST is connected to the rotor head( gimble) and if the mast is connected to the rotor head then the mast will swing within it's CG and since it's connected to the rotorhead then it follows suit that the mast is a swingin,,,,,,,( the foot bone is connected to the ancle bone) now hear the word of the Lord!!!!!!!!

[gyromike]

Ron,

You have to consider the gyro frame and the rotors as one unit.
The trap comes when we think of them as two seperate systems.

Anything connected to the frame is a part of the aircraft (whether it hangs by a universal joint or not). Including the rotor.

It's mass is added to the rest of the components, contributing to the aircrafts Center of Gravity.

All objects rotate about their CG, unless they are constrained in some manner.
Since the rotor is a part of the aircraft, and is not massive enough to constrain the frame, it must pivot around the CG along with the rest of the aircraft.

The entire aircraft rotates about it's CG.
In roll.
In yaw.
And in pitch.

[GyroRon]

Where the heck is Chuck Beaty, or Doug Riley??? Either of them could clear this up for Ron I. to understand lickety split....

[Dean_Dolph]

Doug and Chuck have replied to similar posts of Ron's in another thread and I think they have made a diagnosis of 'Old Timers' disease! This disease isn't necessarily age related but does have the symptom of closing ones eyes to the truth and staying comfortable with a personal view of a situation.

I think GyroMike (I even made my feeble attempt!) has provided good understandable info. If Ron doesn't want to accept it, or doesn't understand what is being said well enough to ask clarification questions, then there is not much that can be done. The following quote pretty much sums it up.

"When you are talking to technically illterate people you must resort to the plausible falsehood instead of the difficult truth." - Aerodynamicist, Dr. Theodore VonKarman

The problem isn't Ron's; it is ours since we haven't found the plausible falsehood that he will accept.

Ron is a good solid gyro citizen; one who is enthusiastic about his Bensen and representative of pilot/builder survivors of 20+ years ago. I just hope that any newbie that wanders by doesn't buy into his statements.

[Ron Iaconis]

Doug and Chuck have replied to similar posts of Ron's in another thread and I think they have made a diagnosis of 'Old Timers' disease! This disease isn't necessarily age related but does have the symptom of closing ones eyes to the truth and staying comfortable with a personal view of a situation.

I think GyroMike (I even made my feeble attempt!) has provided good understandable info. If Ron doesn't want to accept it, or doesn't understand what is being said well enough to ask clarification questions, then there is not much that can be done. The following quote pretty much sums it up.

"When you are talking to technically illterate people you must resort to the plausible falsehood instead of the difficult truth." - Aerodynamicist, Dr. Theodore VonKarman

The problem isn't Ron's; it is ours since we haven't found the plausible falsehood that he will accept.

Ron is a good solid gyro citizen; one who is enthusiastic about his Bensen and representative of pilot/builder survivors of 20+ years ago. I just hope that any newbie that wanders by doesn't buy into his statements.

Sorry,,,,Dean,,,,you are nothing more than an armchair quarterback,,,,,sorry,,,,

[Dean_Dolph]

Okay, Ron, just for grins lets agree I'm a arm chair quarterback.

What about C. Beaty, Doug Riley, G. Gremminger, Al Hammer, Udi and the others here that have learned from them and understand the simple physics involved? Are you saying that they don't know what they are talking about? Just because you can't understand what you are being told does not make the rest of us wrong. Sorry, but that is the truth, old timer.

[Vance]

Ron Iaconis,

I don’t see a reason to discount Dean. Dean has been around the PRA for a long time. Dean has a sense of history. Dean has continued to support Autogiros even though he has not been able to fly. Dean is smart and observant. He has helped many understand the principles of unpowered rotor flight and stability. He is a very nice man.

I believe that if we had more people like Dean, we would have more people flying gyroplanes.

I have found it self-defeating to only listen to certain people. I have found value in listening to the words and trying to understand the thoughts.

Ron, you have a lot to offer because of the depth and length of your experience and I am grateful for the gift you give when you share that experience and your observations. I look forward to meeting you and learning from you.

Thank you, Vance

PS and Dean types faster than me

[Mayfield]

Ron,

Dean is certainly not an armchair quarterback.

He expends great effort to understand and promote safe design and safe operation.

I hope he runs for the PRA board again. He has great energy and is fair minded on the many issues confronting us.

I do have another question. I sure hope you don't take this wrong because I mean it respectfully.

In your profile you say you have 100 hours in gyros. I understand you have built 5. This would seem to indicate that you have an average of about 20 hours per gyro spread over 30 years or so.

This would not seem to be a lot of experience to support beliefs that most of the gyro community no longer supports.

Ron, There is a real good chance that I have misunderstood some of the things you have written. So I'll list what I "think" you said:

1. A gyro behaves like a pendulum

2. Rotation about some point other than the CG occurs in gyros

3. Control response is slower in a stable gyro than in an unstable one

If Ihave misunderstood, I apologize.

Again, I'm just trying to understand and mean no offense.

Jim

[Ron Iaconis]

Dean,
First off do not think that I am throwing punches at you,,,,I appreciate you and your words,,,I am truly having some " fun" with you,,,,and yes,,,,Jim I only have 100 hours logged in my gyros,,,,and most was with my first two machines,,,I do not have extensive flying experience, I do not portray to be an expert, and I truly believe that no one on the forum is an expert. That's my opinion, Jim. My main objective is to promote PRA,,,,magazine/Mentone/,and membership, and the solid stability we need for our most loved sport. I believe that most gyro people( my humble opinion) are eccentric, me a happy one in that field, anybody that can fly and stay with the sport is truly a dug-in-the-trench obsessed gyro kinda person. Whoopiee for them. I am getting very much appreciated and needed information from all participants in this forum. I fly from the seat of my pants,,,and haven't killed myself, and am very fortunate for that, and thankful too. I am not even going to compare myself with Chuck Yeager,,,,but if you ever checked into his accredidations for flying the first suprer sonic aircraft, then you would be surprised that he really did not have the credits to be placed in that position. Now to move on,,,,I don't know why I was able to successfully fly being self taught,,,,but I did my homework( reading Bensen and the Guts Manuals) and closely observing ,,,,,,Closely Observing the gyro pilots of the Cincinnatti PRA chapter 40 club and as well the glider training at West Penn Chapter 4 . I never went up in the glider trainer but rode in the back of the pick up truck ,and observed the way the glider pilot manuvered and the speed ( speedometer) of the tower,,,and just [plain and simple " picked" the braines and watched ,and read and then put it into practice. I am so happy that I was able to successfully accomplish my endeavor to be a gyro flyer( I did not say pilot) .
So,,,,,Every body have a nice day!

[Vance]

Ron, I believe your research on Chuck Yeager is flawed. He had already done some remarkable things when he was given that seat.

Thank you, Vance

[Ron Iaconis]

Ron,

Dean is certainly not an armchair quarterback.

He expends great effort to understand and promote safe design and safe operation.

I hope he runs for the PRA board again. He has great energy and is fair minded on the many issues confronting us.

I do have another question. I sure hope you don't take this wrong because I mean it respectfully.

In your profile you say you have 100 hours in gyros. I understand you have built 5. This would seem to indicate that you have an average of about 20 hours per gyro spread over 30 years or so.

This would not seem to be a lot of experience to support beliefs that most of the gyro community no longer supports.

Ron, There is a real good chance that I have misunderstood some of the things you have written. So I'll list what I "think" you said:

1. A gyro behaves like a pendulum

2. Rotation about some point other than the CG occurs in gyros

3. Control response is slower in a stable gyro than in an unstable one

If Ihave misunderstood, I apologize.

Again, I'm just trying to understand and mean no offense.

Jim
Yes Jim,
I am still saying that if a gyro hangs off the rotor head and the gyro swings ( by the way the gyro is a weight shift machine) When I check my wt & balance, I hang from the teeter bolt and make sure that the gyro /mast is at a " forward" 0-5 degrees, so that when power off one can establish a glide to auto rotate to the landing spot. The fact that the gyro hangs from the teeter bolt , and the fact that when the motor is not running,then the gyro will go from the normal ( mast at 9 degrees) ) in the Bee the rotor head is still at 9 degrees and the mast is more straight up and down( 90 or pepindicular to the keel) the gyro will then swing from the 9 degrees to the 0 to the -5 degrees froward to establish a glide. You call it what you want ,,,I call it swinging from 9 degrees back to around 3 degrees forward,,,,I call it swingin,,,,,,swingin...,,,, a swingin


And yes,,,a horiz stab gyro is slower in responce than an un stabed gyro. I am talking my first hand experience comparing my unstabed flying to the horiz stabed machine that I flew( my own ,,,both machines)

[Mayfield]

Hi again Ron,

It appears you have certain opinions that I very much disagree with.

I am responding primarily for the others that will read this thread.

The gyro is simply not a weight shift machine. It uses cyclic pitch change to maneuver.

For others reading this thread: If you agree with Ron re: weight shift, I would encourage you to do two simple experiments and then form your opinion.

1. As you perform your hang test, try to move the stick around while hanging from the teeter bolt. I think you will find that the stick forces are far too high for you to be levering the aircraft around in flight.

2. With the gyro sitting on the ground; position the blades at 3 and 9 o'clock. Then move the stick aft. You will observe the blade on the right side tip nose up. In flight this will increase the angle of attack on that blade and it will "fly" up, 90 degrees later in the plane of rotation, to its highest point over the nose. The blade on the other side will tip nose down, while at 9 o'clock, and "fly" down to its lowest point over the tail. If we freeze the blades at the 12/6 o'clock position we will observe the rotor disk tilted back which will result in an increase in lift and a climb if power is set for climb.

These two experiments should convince most folks that cyclic pitch change controls the gyro.

Thanks for the civil discourse Ron,

Jim

[Ga6riel]

simply a genious in explanation

[gyromike]

( by the way the gyro is a weight shift machine)

Ron,

A gyro is not a weight-shift machine.

To be a weight-shifter, you would have to swing the gyro frame one direction so that it would pull the rotors in another direction.

But that doesn't happen. When you move the stick, you apply a cyclic input to the rotors. They fly to a new postion (within a few revolutions), rotating the aircraft about it's center of gravity, rolling or pitching it to a new orientation.

Think about how much force it would take on the stick to cause a 500 lb. frame to swing outwards.
Then compare that to how much force we really use.

Most single place gyros can be flown with fingertip pressure.

[Ron Iaconis]

Jim,
I just went and did what you suggested,,,,and I see that the advancing blade is in a very positive angle of attack( degrees not known) and the retreating blade is at a very negative angle of attack. Yes this is how the blades are affected I appreciate your enlightenment, Thank you , Jim. This gives me from the old school opf thought some pondering and I truly appreciate it. Chuck Beaty at times would bring to the flyins a model of this very same explanation you describe,and it is becomming more and more clear to me,and I appreciate your explanations,,I want to devour these ideas for a while to see if I can appreciate the phenominum. Thank you Jim.

[Ron Iaconis]

Mike,
Thanks to Jim's help I am beginning to see the logic,,,,,I am slowly beginning to see and will enjoy the revelations that become aware to me in my own time,,,thank you too.

[gyromike]

Ron,

I was hoping someone like Jim would chime in.

I apologize if my examples were not clear enough.

[Brian Jackson]

Thank you, Jim. Hadn't heard it put like that before, but your model/explanation is easy to imagine and makes complete sense. Thanks for posting that.

[Dean_Dolph]

Ron,

Dean is certainly not an armchair quarterback.

He expends great effort to understand and promote safe design and safe operation.

I hope he runs for the PRA board again. He has great energy and is fair minded on the many issues confronting us..........JimJim, I appreciate your understanding that I join you, and others, in the attempts to make this activity safer in all areas. I don't make any claims about the depth of my knowledge but little by little I'm getting there.

There are certain people that have the ability to convey info in a manner that is clear and concise. We are fortunate to have people like you and Doug R. here. I recognize that even in the areas where I have some understanding, I have difficulty doing that. It is embarrassing in some ways but then that is the way I'm built!

Sometimes it takes presentations from different directions by different people before the audience has a light bulb moment. And it looks like Ron has had one from your last presentation. He should feel good about that since it indicates that his case of 'old timers' may not be as severe as it appeared. I thought GyroMike's explanation was pretty clear but like I said sometimes another direction helps.

And yes, it appears that I'm running for the PRA BOD again. That is if the request for a profile and picture for the magazine means anything!

I like most of what I heard about immediate and future plans at Bensen Days and want to be part of the implementation.

[Ron Iaconis]

Dean,,and anyothers out there ,,
I can appreciate your comments about what we want to say and how we type it may not always be understood or explained in a manner that all concerned will understand or agree upon.
Concerning PRA and it's future,,,,,,We need good input and implimentation of the good ideas. Some of us can really have good ideas,,and we need good people to put those ideas into action. I know that we have in our midsts peeople of that calibre. I am going to be 62 in a week,,,and I truly believe that I am no where near " old timer disease" at least I hope so. This forum has been extreemly important to me and very educational. I think that I have learned( not always the case in previous years) not to take anybody's criticism to a point that I would feel " offended" I used to get offended,,,because I was immature and hopefully I have matured just a tiny bit past that stage. I welcome any and all criticism, it helps me grow. In fact with new enlightenments like I have come to understand,,,it gives me new meaning to living,,,,,the old "" has become the new " it's a revelation" kinda thing,,,,,and I applaude it most vigorously. After all,,,,My underlying motivation is for the gyro sport to thrive and prosper, in all aspects, like safety, education, and growth. PS : I will always be a Bensen Student with only small safety implements, it has been my passion since I was 14 years old and I will take the passion to my grave!