Idiots [Archive] - Rotary Wing Forum

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Chuck_Ellsworth

11-26-2003, 07:56 AM

When I first posted here I made a comment that referred to idiots. In retrospect I should have known it would turn into a flame war. So allow me to re state my comment and delete the word idiots and replace it with " *Risk takers ". There are two basic groups of risk takers. The first group are those who have the background, experience and understanding through proper training of the risk involved in the high risk flying being under taken. This group perform " High Risk" flying in a structured and legal enviorement. The second group are the low time untrained / self trained pilots who attempt high risk flying with skills that are not tempered by common sense and fear of the consequences due to ignorance and a lack of respect for the rules of safe flight. ( Read, *ego driven ) I watch the interaction between the members of this group and one thing stands out that is note worthy. * I have yet to see any professional knowledgable members of this group defend or brag about risky unprofessional flying . Maybe it is that group that the newcomers should pattern their flying and thought processes after. Chuck E.

ToddP

11-26-2003, 08:19 AM

Every aspect of aviation or any activity for that matter has a certain amount of risk. *The key is identifying the risks involved, and deciding upon your acceptable level of risk. I thought about this quite a bit while I was working on my instrument rating. *When it comes to instrument flying, there is ALWAYS a reason to cancel. *A person just needs to understand the risks involved and then decide what risks they are willing to accept. Gyro flying in my eyes also had some very identifiable risks. *When researching accidents, there are two key factors in nearly all accidents: *1. *Pilot Training, 2. Machine Stability. For gyro flying to reach an acceptable risk level for me I: 1. *Purchased a dominator gyro, considered by most to one of the best designs for stability. 2. *Did 10 hours of dual instruction with gyro instructors. After completing these two items and being very careful in my assembly, gyro flying has reached an acceptable level of risk for me. Your level of acceptable risk also will go up with experience. *For example, right now I won't fly in winds exceeding 10 mph, but in time that number will probably increase. Now Chuck talked about the "risk takers". In my opinion, these would be the people that haven't identified the risks involved. *The only reason they're risk takers is because quite frankly, they haven't thought about it or haven't educated themselved enough to realize the risks involved. *The Darwin awards (http://www.darwinawards.com/) are full of people that didn't consider the possible risks involved. * This is just my opinion

Hognose

11-26-2003, 04:25 PM

Greg Gremminger has written some very good stuff on the subject(s) of Aeronautical Decision Making (ADM), and the personality-types that are at risk, and why this is particularly a concern in gyro flying. Most of these papers are available at Magni USA. Guys like Chuck and Todd know about this stuff already, but for the lurkers that don't: http://www.magnigyro.com/USA/features.htm I'd start with the ADM article and then any of his several perorations on thrustlines, stabs, and stability are worthwhile reading. He is not only a good guy who spends plenty hours in a gyro, he understands the aerodynamics and engineering, and he can write (there are other things on the page he didn't write, which are also good). cheers -=K=-

Hognose

11-26-2003, 04:28 PM

Oh, yeah... Idiots... on that subject, I can honestly say I've never known a true idiot who stuck with it to the point of actually learning to fly (idiots that tried to fly without learning, well, they're different). But I have known a number of smart guys who died from one dumb stunt. Sometimes it was their first and last dumb stunt, sometimes it was just their last. cheers -=K=-

Screw

11-27-2003, 01:47 AM

I just want to know why so many are so interested in judging?   Everyone started out with 0 hours.  Just because pilots live to be old farts doesn't always mean they are the Bob Hoover. They flew to their level of comfort, as all pilots do. My grandmother still drives.  Not very well, and she hates riding with anyone because they drive like idiots to her.  Comfort level. Not everyone can fly.  You have to pretty on the ball to obtain a license in the first place.  So idiot is not an applicable word. I agree that people often fly outside of their comfort and capabilityies, which sometimes leads to the death of themselves and others. Please come down off the cross.  Most private pilots fly for personal enjoyment.  All enjoy it until they die.  Whether they die @ 94 in bed or 34 trying to loop a gyro, they are all pilots not idiots. As far as your theory on Risk Takers, Isn't that a comfort level issue?  I mean what makes one person comfort might make another uneasy? Excuse me, I didn't go to Embry Riddle, and I don't emagine I every will, so does that make me an uneducated whatever it was you said? I guess the point I'm trying to make is not everyone has access to the higher levels of education, therefore, what do about them?  They couldn't possibly understand the risk involved in doing a maneuver that might kill them right? That's ok.  I'll leave the judging to more qualified people to judge. I'm going flying!  I might even do a "short field" landing if that's ok with you boss?

GyroRon

11-27-2003, 02:21 AM

Good post John.

ToddP

11-27-2003, 04:44 AM

You know the problem with winter?  We have way to much time to talk theory and other BS.  I can't wait for spring. I've haven't spent alot of time reading regular fixed wing or ultralight forums, but it sure seems like we spend alot of time talking physics, theory, mental attitude etc..  Holy cow, in the other forums I think they actually talk about how much fun it is to fly!  I'm starting a new thread.  Please offer your best flying story - Lets talk about something fun.

PW_Plack

11-27-2003, 06:05 AM

Judging the decision-making of other pilots, and talking with each other about those decisions, is a worthwhile part of learning about risk. The generalizations about character which sometimes result can get tiresome. Besides...generalizations are always wrong!

Heron

11-27-2003, 07:47 AM

Decisions . . .Decisions . . . John made a very good point there! I think those that want to make a point should name an especific situation and pilot (or student) to ilustrate it. And than we can debate it at different levels and with the participation of the one who create the situation. I will not learn much gyro stuff from Chuck E. if he does not start flying and showing his skills in performing and teaching. In the other hand Ron came aboard not to long ago with some aviation experience and gave us sort of a "cockpit  view" on his training, building and now over the edge (or not?) maneuvers. I know that I may never be a pilot and if I learn to fly I will have to be on a dual seater with another pilot for long flights. If I loose sight on my right eye I will not be able to fly with the left one alone. Born defective (not my brain you slick, this one I messed up myself) ::) Thanks Heron

Chuck_Ellsworth

11-27-2003, 12:35 PM

Steven. Thanks for the kind words. And I am always calm, that is how I got to live this long in this business. If you want some more entertainment go and rent the movie "Below" by Merimax. That was the last movie we worked in... when you get to the end of the movie read the credits. When the credits get to cast in order of appearance you may recognize the first name.  ;D Chuck E.

GyroRon

11-27-2003, 01:18 PM

I just want to go on record that although I may seem like a hotshot reckless pilot - I am not.  I will agree I do fly more agressivly than some - but I am a far cry from many of the more aggressive pilots out there! Anyone who has seen me fly should be able to vouch for me. Vouch for me guys!!! I also want to go on record that I never fly without a extremely good pre flight inspection. I think some of you would be surprised how many people just throw some gas in their machine and hop in and hit the sky. I have spotted so many things in pre flights that would or could have put me down it is scary!!! I also very much want to go on record that I DID, yes I said DID..... Get training before flying my gyro. I considered " teaching " myself but decided that was not smart and went and got training. I also was not anywhere near as informed about gyros as anyone lucky enough to have a computer and the internet - neither of which I had ever had before flying gyros. BUT.... getting back to my training, I spent the entire 2001 Bensen Days fly-in - all 10 days worth -  either in Steve McGowans trainer or in his gyro tent slash waiting area, learning from him in the air and on the ground and listening and learning from everyone around me. I trained until the end of the fly in and was preparing myself for the trip to Macon to get more dual when at the end of the fly-in as everyone was leaving and helping Steve pack up I was told by steve to go home and fly, I was ready in his eyes. I did exactly what he said and the next weekend spent a day at the airport running up and down on the mains and crowhopping and finally flying my gyro. Bottom line is I did not just hop in a gyro out of the blue and go out flying. I have a solo sign off on my medical slash student certificate to fly my gyro. ----- I also want to add to that... Since then I have put well over 250 flight hours in gyroplanes. In that time I have had two engine out landings, I flew for several months with no pre rotator - hard to do when you were trained and used to a prerotator! and in all this time I have not come close to banging up a set of blades or damaging a gyro yet. I am not bragging, I am just pointing out that I feel I am past my teething stage and rating or no rating, I deserve to be considered a - up to this point anyway - successful gyro pilot. I also want to go on record that  I did recieve training prior to flying fixed wing as well. I completed a structured flight course from a USUA flight center and completed both ground and flight instruction and got my ultralight pilot rating - yes there is such a thing and it is reconized by the FAA as they as grandfathering in " ultralight pilots" in the sport pilot program.  I did teach myself some of my skills such as how to fly a tail wheel airplane, and how to fly a power parachute. I also more or less taught myself aerobatics in the Phantom - with help from others that also did aerobatics in the Phantom. Maybe not the smartest thing to do, but so far it has worked for me - no problems with the PPC, or the aerobatics, and haven't groundlooped a taildragger yet - which by the way I am endorsed for tail wheels in my log book now! ------------ I think the thing that people have held against me for so long - besides that I can be a ass sometimes -  is the fact that I never did get my pilots certificate. And in their eyes I am just some backyard, rebel, self taught, yahoo, flyer. Well I am NOT that at all. I Started in ultralights where a rating was not required. After getting into our local aviation scene I found that what seemed like the majority of the pilots in this area either flew with no rating or expired medicals or something along that line. Sure there are plenty of the " backyard, rebel, self taught, yahoo, flyer" pilots out here, but needless to say If I didn't have my rating I wouldn't be the black sheep, more like join the club.... So I guess you can say I used that as my excuse for not getting off my butt and getting my rating since I was moving into heavier and faster iron. Well that was a sorry excuse and one I can hopefully put behind me. As most of you know I DID get off my butt and have been plugging away at my private rating to get legal and truely learn more about flying. I knew little of weather and airspace, and FAR's etc... because I was a fair weather local flyer and didn't need that knowledge. Now I am excited to learn more. --------------- Last I want to go on record that I do have respect for my elders and especially folks like Chuck E.  He has been there and done that, and I bet he could keep us entertained around the campfire for days with his flying tales. I don't purposely want static with him or anyone else here. I don't like his choice and use of certain words at times and I just can't leave it alone, It is just in my nature to get involved rather than sit and watch. But I know that the best thing is I should just mind my own business..... So sorry Chuck for being a ass to you. anyway just felt like clearing up a few things. Happy turkey day.

Chuck_Ellsworth

11-27-2003, 01:39 PM

And happy turkey day to you Ron. :) Just remember why we celebrate thanksgiving... I am not a US citizen but I have spent most of my life as an admirer of your country. I grew up in Windsor Ont. so that makes me an American by the culture I was exposed to. I was proud to see the look of respect on the faces of our soldiers in Iraq when G. W. showed up in a surprise visit on Thanksgiving It matters not what our private politics are we should be proud to have a leader who understands the importance of our military. So there ....all the best to my American friends on this holiday, one on which we can put aside our disagreements and be thankful we are free. I have lived under the terror of some of the worlds most brutal regiemes and know just how fortunate we truly are. Chuck E.

Hognose

11-28-2003, 05:06 AM

If I lose sight on my right eye I will not be able to fly with the left one alone. Don't count yourself out, Heron. You learnt to drive OK, right? It is quite possible to learn to fly and get licensed with only one working eye. It is possible to get up to a Class II medical (I don't know of anyone who has a Class I, but that might also be done).  The process is called Statement of Demonstrated Ability and leads to a Special Issuance medical with a waiver of the usual vision standards (as described here: [ur]lhttp://www.aviationmedicine.com/eyes.htm[/url]) In short, what must happen is that you must show the FAA that you CAN fly safely, correcting for the single eye. Show them that you can do it, and they will often agree. cheers -=K=-

Hognose

11-28-2003, 05:15 AM

I was proud to see the look of respect on the faces of our soldiers in Iraq when G. W. showed up in a surprise visit on Thanksgiving You probably know, if many of us yanks don't, that Canadian soldiers have been deeply involved in the war in Afghanistan. We were glad to have 'em. I have lived under the terror of some of the worlds most brutal regiemes and know just how fortunate we truly are. Oh, come on, Chuck, Pierre Trudeau wasn't that bad, was he..? LOL. Thanks, and best wishes back at you. cheers -=K=-

GyroRon

11-28-2003, 05:24 AM

Yeap Heron we have a one eye fellow that flys out of our airport. He did the thing Hognose was talking about. He can fly pretty darn good too, He flys a RV-6 powered by a Mazda RX-7 engine. Matter of fact some of you may have heard his name as he contributes articles on Rotary engines to Kit planes magazine from time to time. His name is Ed Anderson

Heron

11-28-2003, 08:09 AM

I will look him up Ron . . . . . .and thank you an Hognose for the encouragement! But here is the thing: I have been trying to drive with my right eye closed and there are too much I canot see out of the left! I know I can fly and I will give it a try, but staying around the pattern is something not in my plans, I want to go places. The back up pilot should be sine qua non, if I have any problem with the good one (It happened before riding a bike), I will not be able to pinpoint much from up there, I've seen pics with landmarks (quite big) covered by the clouds shadows and thats exactly what I see, a big shadow. I will not be able to land or spot hazards that are airborne. Funny thing is I can outshoot DAve D. with my poor lefty . . . (here we go) ;D thanks Heron

Vance

11-30-2003, 04:22 AM

Hi Heron, I only have the right  eye and have learned to fly helicopters and gyroplanes.  I have to have a medical check ride for each endorsment but the FAA after a year of challanges have granted my medical.  A better example is my father, he only had one eye and was a very well known barnstormer and test pilot who never crashed a plane.  You can look him up on the internet, same name as mine.  My friends offered to get me a 40 foot teliscoping white cane when I was doing autorotations in a Robinson 44.   Good Luck, Vance Breese

Heron

11-30-2003, 04:37 AM

So. . .there is light at the end of my tunnel vision . . . Glad to hear that, I will leave the final decision for later when I am up there and can experience what is like. Thanks Heron

Vance

11-30-2003, 09:06 AM

Hi Heron, I do have to practice and try harder but that makes it even more fun.  Knowing where to flair is much easyer in a gyro than a helicopter but getting it wrong creats more challanges.  Don't give up.  Thanks for reminding me of the fun of meeting a challange head on.  Good Luck, Vance

Al_Hammer

11-30-2003, 04:06 PM

Vance, I did look him up, and you weren't kidding about your father's credentials as a test pilot. Very impressive. I like that white cane idea.  But which hand would you hold it in? cyclic hand , or collective?

Vance

11-30-2003, 04:20 PM

Hi Al, Left seat, left hand. *In a Robinson 44 if you let go of the cyclic it doesn't stay in the sky very long. *A 22 is even more unstable. I would have to let go and grab the colective at the end of the flair.*A person with one eye has depth perception nearly as good as two above 50 feet. *It's below 50 feet that I need to cheat. *I didn't get along with my dad so that's why I am so ignorant about flight. *Thank you for your help.

Al_Hammer

11-30-2003, 05:02 PM

Yes, collective hand sounds like the one to use.