Cross-country performance

[rtfm]

Hi there,
I was speaking to one of my helicopter pilot friends the other day, and he mentioned what a mission it had been flying in his R22 from Auckland to Wellington - not a flight I would have thought to be particularly onorous. He seemed unequivocally of the opinion that to undertake a similar trip in a gyro (even a fully enclosed one) would be nigh on impossible. At the very least, in his opinion, it would be an extremely uncomfortable trip. He seemed to think that the amount of 'flying' the pilot would have to do would be extremely tiring compared to the relatively hands-off flying that a fixed wing aircraft pilot would experience on the same trip.

This was a sobering point of view, because I am particularly keen on cross-country flying, and was hoping to do so in a Gyro. I am strongly considering buying a UFO, or something similar, which I understood was particularly well-suited (cruise speed = 100mph, endurance = 6hrs) to cross country flights.

Comments?

[Gordon Gibson]

I think in general, helicopters do make harder work of long cross-country trips but my belief is that one of the latest generation gyros (Sparrowhawk or a Little Wing) would be a different story altogether. These CLT machines with decent HS's tend to have much less 'workload' as you fly along. My only experience is going from a standard B8M to a CLT/Tall tail and even that was a big difference, especially in bumpy air.

6 hours endurance implies about 120 liters of fuel (assuming the engine is a 2.2 or 2.5 ltr Subaru) does it not? Where would they put all the fuel? :confused:

Gordon Gibson

[rtfm]

I6 hours endurance implies about 120 liters of fuel (assuming the engine is a 2.2 or 2.5 ltr Subaru) does it not? Where would they put all the fuel? :confused:
Gordon Gibson
Hi,
16 hrs? No... That must be a typo. I meant 6 hrs.

Each seat is backed by a full-height (ie from the floor to the top of the seat back) moulded tank, which fit snugly into the curve of the fusalage. These tanks are right on the vertical CG, so as they become depleted, it has no effect on CG. If I remember correctly, each tank holds 54 litres. At the cruise speed of 100 mph, the UFO-HeliThruster under optimum conditions will use 14 liters per hour on average. Giving you a range of approximately 600 miles of range with a 1 hour fuel safety margin. 14 liters per hour = US gallons of 3.70 per hour = Imperial gallons of 3.08 per hour...

Duncan

[Gordon Gibson]

Hello Duncan

I had a look on my last post and it says '6' so I don't know, maybe it comes up '16' on your screen.

I saw the UFO at Dannevirke and now I recall the tanks are big and behind the seats so yes, there is a huge fuel tank there. 14ltrs per hour (pushing the machine @ 100mph) seems extremely good fuel economy, thats a major achievement for a 2.2 Soob!
See if you can email Andy Keech, he has just flown his LW right across USA as well as heaps of other long distance stuff. Must be comfortable.

Thanks, Gordon Gibson.

[birdy]

Gordon,The RAF has a safe 5 1/2 hours with the 914 & 80l

Duncan,
I'v spent full days mustering alongside R22s and I was much less stuffed at the end of the day than the other bloke.I'v never flowen choppers but there would be alot more pilot input in a chopper,mustering on rough,windy days.[and my machine is supposed to be a handfull??]

How many hours has your mate done??If he is a relitivly low hour bloke,the nerves in rough air would nock you up quicker than the actual flying.

[PTKay]

Hi,

I am afraid UFO is a real UFO. (nobody has really seen it working).

Since many months I am trying to get more info on this craft, and
all what you see on their web page is outdated message from mid 2003
that they are buliding their new factory.

I am afraid what they claim on their page it too good to be true.

I have seen somewhere else a report (I dont remember where) where somebody was fighting with the UFO kit replacing some of the elements (engine covers) with another construction. The fiber glass was too heavy for the ship, it never reached the performance....

But maybe I am wrong.

I would be more than happy if anybody could correct me and give some real up-to-date information on UFO.

PTKay

[rtfm]

Hi,
The new UFO factory seems alive and well. As I entered (last Sunday morning) there were eight UFO's lined against up the wall, draped over with various coverings looking for all the world like giant alien eggs busy hatching. All have been sold, and parts for another run of 10 machines were neatly stacked to one side, ready to be assembled. In the middle of the floor stood Geoff's own machine - in stunning silver. According to Geoff, two problems are hassling him at the moment: (1) overheating of the Sub EJ25 powerplant - which he could solve immediately by placing the radiator outside the fusalague in the airflow - but it would spoil the otherwise superb lines of the UFO and (2) fitting a better prerotator. Apparently he's considering powering it from the PTO (power take off) point of the EJ25 engine, which has a pulley at the front of the engine. A belt would drive the blades, but he says he needs to be careful not to extract too much hp from this source because one can damage the Harmonic Balancer.

Not much by way of 'solid' info, but the UFO certainly doesn't seem to be a UFO...

Duncan

[PTKay]

Duncan,

thanks for the update.

Great to have sombody from the Kiwi land on the forum who can give first hand information.

If you see Goeff next time, tell him, he should do something about his web page, because it is drastically spoiling the image of his company, left as it is for many months without update etc.

The image is: the company is in trouble or dead.

Happy to hear they are doing well, I really love the shape and performance of this machine.

PTKay

[Aussie_Paul]

Who is Geoff? Aussie Paul.

[rtfm]

Hi,
Yes, it is unfortunate that the UFO site is so poorly maintained, but help is on the way. One of my companies, rtfmsoft.com specialises in aero-related websites, and I have built a new site for the UFO. They are looking at it at the moment, and I hope they decide to use us to run and maintain the new site for them. It will have its own discussion lists, interactive pages, lots of photos, breaking news etc. Maybe even a web cam, so that we can all see what is ACTUALLY happening on the factory floor...

Problem is, Geoff is great with gyros, but not big on IT. Watch this space.

Duncan

[rtfm]

Hi AussiePaul,
While the UFO was designed by Mac, Geoff Price is the engineer who actually builds them. The new factory is on his estate out at Whitford, just south of Auckland.

Duncan

[skypuppy]

I just completed a 633 nm X-Country this past week in a Sparrow Hawk. You won't break any speed records but I find it a very comfortable aircraft to fly. Night X-C is also pleasant.

[birdy]

Yeh, the Oz nationals were held 1800km from ere, and it took me 2 days[ 20 hours] to get there, but who's counting. I can't think of a better way to veiw the world, than ina gyro.

[Udi]

I just completed a 633 nm X-Country this past week in a Sparrow Hawk. You won't break any speed records but I find it a very comfortable aircraft to fly. Night X-C is also pleasant.
John,

Did you fly the SH back from Buckeye? What kind of engine do you have on it? How was the performance when you got to Denver?

Udi

[skypuppy]

That is the problem ...... he was in an R22

[skypuppy]

No, I flew it from Denver Colorado to Oklahoma City and back to Denver. The engine is a 2.5 Subaru.

[OzyRuss]

[QUOTE=rtfm]Hi,
The new UFO factory seems alive and well. As I entered (last Sunday morning) there were eight UFO's lined against up the wall, draped over with various coverings looking for all the world like giant alien eggs busy hatching. All have been sold, and parts for another run of 10 machines were neatly stacked to one side, ready to be assembled. In the middle of the floor stood Geoff's own machine - in stunning silver. According to Geoff, two problems are hassling him at the moment: (1) overheating of the Sub EJ25 powerplant - which he could solve immediately by placing the radiator outside the fusalague in the airflow - but it would spoil the otherwise superb lines of the UFO and (2) fitting a better prerotator. Apparently he's considering powering it from the PTO (power take off) point of the EJ25 engine, which has a pulley at the front of the engine. A belt would drive the blades, but he says he needs to be careful not to extract too much hp from this source because one can damage the Harmonic Balancer.




If you believe that they are alive and well, 10 machines stacked up ready for assembly, order books FULL..........bla, bla, bla

Then why is it so..................NO ONE knows anyone with one, NO ONE knows, or has heard of ANYONE buying one.
To MY knowledge..........there is only 2 or 3..........WORLDWIDE that actually got into the air................with HEAPS of assembly problems

getting any qualified answers here, is like chasing rainbows.

This gyro world is small, and we get to hear of man and machines, we get zip feed back re "UFO's" from ANY owner, flyer..............WORLDWIDE.

Are you getting the picture now......................

[Aussie_Paul]

Hi,
The new UFO factory seems alive and well. As I entered (last Sunday morning) there were eight UFO's lined against up the wall, draped over with various coverings looking for all the world like giant alien eggs busy hatching. All have been sold, and parts for another run of 10 machines were neatly stacked to one side, ready to be assembled. In the middle of the floor stood Geoff's own machine - in stunning silver. According to Geoff, two problems are hassling him at the moment: (1) overheating of the Sub EJ25 powerplant - which he could solve immediately by placing the radiator outside the fusalague in the airflow - but it would spoil the otherwise superb lines of the UFO and (2) fitting a better prerotator. Apparently he's considering powering it from the PTO (power take off) point of the EJ25 engine, which has a pulley at the front of the engine. A belt would drive the blades, but he says he needs to be careful not to extract too much hp from this source because one can damage the Harmonic Balancer.

Not much by way of 'solid' info, but the UFO certainly doesn't seem to be a UFO...

Duncan

That is 2 years ago and we have not seen any major developments other than they crashed the company test aircraft twice!!!!

I took Geoff Price flying at the Dannevirke flyin last January, in one of our modified Rafs, as well as the the main NZ recreational aviation CAA guy Rex Kenny. It was a great flyin.

There is a lack of gyroplane knowledge at the UFO factory.

Aussie Paul.:)

[OzyRuss]

Dead rite there paul...........if you have a gyro background, and you poze the REAL questions to em...............you get mirrors and smoke screens.

When you show em up as flawed.........they then spin you, "sorry, our PR dept was a little over the top.............bad communication"

Yea........rite

The concept has merrit, looks just great, but hey..........still a LONG way to go, before you unleash it to buyers. So reign in your sales promos, coz, doing what you are doing now, will permanately tarnish a possibly great product.

[Chopper Reid]

Its pretty ordinary if you have a factory gyro with heating problems [UFO ]. Its all very well to have this streamlined gyro but it has to be a complete package.

I'm particularly interesed in why it takes so long to assemble the thing. I have heard the figure of $100,000 to complete one. This has to be a typo surely !!

[Aussie_Paul]

Its pretty ordinary if you have a factory gyro with heating problems [UFO ]. Its all very well to have this streamlined gyro but it has to be a complete package.

I'm particularly interesed in why it takes so long to assemble the thing. I have heard the figure of $100,000 to complete one. This has to be a typo surely !!

It is no more a factory gyro than my Firebird is!! They can't yet be supplied as a turn key or complete kit aricraft yet. The same as my Firebird yet!!! But not long now.
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Firebird has components coming of the CNC machinery as I type. I hope by the end of the week that I will have enough components to start assembling components to the first two Firebirds. I already have them sitting on main gear with the keel and lower mast attached. I took a cabin to the vehicle upholsters for carpet and they already have the upholstery for the seat tanks sorted. Very, very comfy. I have 3 tails and 3 cabins in stock and the h/stab mould will be finished this week. Instrument pods are sorted as wll as the wheel pants or wheel spats as we used to call them.

So, 6 weeks should see 2 real Firebirds sitting ready to be finished off with the time consuming, another 6 weeks I suppose, wiring plumbing etc. as well as starting number 3 and 4. After certification in NZ approx. Oct and then Oz approx. November, turn key Firebirds will be able to be bought and or ordered. FINALY!!!!! It has been like watching grass grow hasn't it?:D
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Not a typo Brian but you have to double that figure. It has been built with payed labour. You can imagine how that adds up when everything on it had to be designed from scratch. The one I am thinking off has Raf blades, Raf rotor head, Raf redrive, Raf pre rotator, Raf rotor brake. Everything had to be specifically designed to work within the UFO airframe and cabin.

I told the owner not to paint it as I reckon there may be some "adjustments" having to be made after I test fly it.

The workmanship is superb, as the pics show. I am sure that we will be able to make it a beautiful and well performing gyroplane with a UFO cabin.

Aussie Paul.:)

[OzyRuss]

Brian......there's one up here, the guy bought the kit some yrs back, I'm pretty sure he would love to get rid of it............a bloody nitemare to build, nothing fits, components poorly made. He has even thrown away some kit stuff, and modified "RAF" and other makers gear to get this piece of !@##$% built. It is costing him mega bucks. As to factory support..........zero
There is definately a case here of misleading sales "spin"
Do yourself a favour, give em a ring, makeout you want to buy one..........maybe. The sales hype is staggering..........in part, yes sir we got em lined up on our production line, order books are full, you better get your order in asap.
And yes sir, 1200FPM, 2 up, fully loaded, by the way, that's at 90 kts. O yea, using 15 Lph
And yes sir, we are exporting them all over the world.

!@@##$$%%%^^^&*($#@ load of garbage:mad: :rolleyes:

[Chopper Reid]

....all that glitters is not gold...........

[Steve McGowan]

Long X-cuntry's are better in my feelings. Runway work is ruff on any machine..

I did 40 hrs in about 2 weeks at Buckeye flying time off 23Y when it was first built, and 40 on my SH in 3 weeks.. It couldn't have been done in another machine without as much comfort. And still do instructions in the middle of all that.

These machines are like Cadillacs.. Heavy and comfortable to fly..

Hey Paul.... The FIREBIRD is Lookin FINE.... I like it.

Steve

[StanFoster]

Steve: Your quote about the SH being like a Cadillac...heavy and comfortable to fly. That says it right on with very few words. :)

They are very comfortable to fly...:)

Stan

[bones]

Not a typo Brian but you have to double that figure. It has been built with payed labour. You can imagine how that adds up when everything on it had to be designed from scratch. The one I am thinking off has Raf blades, Raf rotor head, Raf redrive, Raf pre rotator, Raf rotor brake. Everything had to be specifically designed to work within the UFO airframe and cabin.

I told the owner not to paint it as I reckon there may be some "adjustments" having to be made after I test fly it.

The workmanship is superb, as the pics show. I am sure that we will be able to make it a beautiful and well performing gyroplane with a UFO cabin.

Aussie Paul.:)
From what you seen Paul what does this machine look like,, what adjustments are you talking about?

[Aussie_Paul]

From what you seen Paul what does this machine look like,, what adjustments are you talking about?

I'd rather fly it first before I say too much, BUT doors on and engine failure may have it swapping ends. Because it is set up with lots of heavy Raf parts and the original UFO u/c, the axle could have to be shifted somewhat.

Aussie Paul.:)