Crazy Ivan [Archive] - Rotary Wing Forum

MattPearson

11-08-2003, 12:39 AM

Steve, Getting some actual flight time would be very helpful. I think you may be misunderstanding how our rotor works in a gyro. *A pilots low level flight speed has nothing to do with how fast the rotor is turning. Once a gyro is in the air it's keeping the rotor loaded that matters. Relative wind flowing up into the rotor and the weight the rotor is lifting in essense keeps the blade disc loaded. This is how most gyros in a gentle breeze to light wind are able to "hover" with power on. The speed at which they rotate is based on many factors such as disc loading, density altitude, flying weight, etc... Flapping the blades in a gyro is really something that can only happen in a couple of instances. The main one being trying to spin up the blades on the ground during a taxi . If you add too much power too soon, the unequal pressure on the advancing blade causes the retreating blade to "smack" down or flap into the ground or whack off your tail. This is not good and will send you home.  The second occurence is in flight and usually is the after effect of a Power Push Over from a HIGH THRUST LINE gyro. This is not good becasue you will be dead.

Aussie_Paul

11-08-2003, 12:32 PM

When I  saw the "Ivan" video, the first thing that I noticed is that the drift string is quite often not centered. It is really a sloppy pilot showing off and relying totally at times on his engine to stay alive. Nothing different to "loop the loop Jim", who is prepared to take the risk that the engine won't stop at the critical point from where there is no recovery, only death. To each their own risks!!!!! They are both great videos though. Aussie Paul.

DougKspokane

11-08-2003, 04:10 PM

I not flying, yet.  Obviously, I do not have the experience most of you have.  I mentioned the "crazy Ivan" video on Rotorcraft Forum a while back because - as someone just getting started - I thought that it enticed novice pilots to try something that would require skills they would not have.  After thinking about this more, I believe that some maneuvers *MIGHT* be good ones to LEARN (from a CFI), such as cross-controls and slipping for crosswind landings.  Yes?  No?  I will draw the line at flying under things, grazing the roofs of cars on the road or "buzzing" the photographer, however!  :P  I also think that flying low toward a grove of Aspen and then pulling up under full power is something that should only be done if you are absolutely, positively secure in the god-like knowledge that your engine won't quit at the worst possible moment... Murphy's Law, anyone?  :o

donshoebridge

11-09-2003, 01:38 AM

While I was reading Steve's post, I began to think about people's preseptions of aerobatic pilots at airshows.  Take Sean D. Tucker for example.  When he does his "Harrier Pass", his tail isn't but 30-50 feet off the ground and his forward airspeed isn't much better than a run.  In Sean's case, if he has an engine out during this, it's all over!  However, in a gyro, the chances of surviving are much greater, even if you are flying under a bridge, or buzzing a Ford Explorer.  Though "Ivan" may be viewed as crazy, and a risk taker, let's put it into perspective.  Those on the aerobatic airshow circuit are at a much higher risk of suffering a fatal accident than Ivan is.

GyroRon

11-09-2003, 04:04 AM

Why is everyone worked up about this guy flying under a bridge? There was places under there to land. I say big deal. The things he did that I thought were risky were to the low to the ground flying on the prop behind the powercurve stuff. Everything else was reasonably safe. If you think otherwise go up and try some of it and maybe you will change your mind. Gyros can do things that may look dangerous but from the pilots seat aren't. Gyro Ron's 2 cents.

Chuck_Ellsworth

11-09-2003, 10:39 AM

You don't see anything wrong with flying under a bridge?

GyroRon

11-09-2003, 11:11 AM

Chuck first off did you see the video were talking about? If not please do. In this case the bridge appeared to be a very large bridge and very high off the ground. Was it a risky manuver? Well as opposed to straight and level at 8000 feet yes. but was it a truely dangerous manuver? I say no. Go watch the video and tell me why I am wrong.

Chuck_Ellsworth

11-09-2003, 12:56 PM

I do not have to look at a video to determine if flying under any bridge is acceptable. One of the biggest reasons gyros are looked down on by the general pilot group is to many  gyro pilots flaunt the laws of aviation by performing dumb stunts such as flying under bridges. As long as there  are gyro pilots who demonstrate unprofessional flying stunts gyros will be seen as a fringe group of missfits in general aviation. As far as being dangerous is concerned I could fly an Airbus Airliner under the Golden Gate bridge without any real danger being involved, but would that be smart? Chuck E.

Screw

11-09-2003, 01:06 PM

Geez, It's not like the dude was flying a Rotodyne.

robertstodaro

11-09-2003, 01:10 PM

I did not see anything outragous with the mans flying. I also did not see any difficult being preformed. EXCEPT flying an open machine in the winter.   DANG! People don't do the fun stuff at flyins because of traffic. Get those same guys on their home turf on a weekend and you'll see the real show.  IMHO

donshoebridge

11-09-2003, 09:56 PM

With all of the stupid human tricks that happen on a daily basis by people that come across as being sain, I'd have to say that flying under a bridge ranks real low on the totem pole by comparison.  Examples, BASE jumping, aerobatics in an ultralight or hang glider, several of Sean Tucker's tricks (the Harrier Pass, the inverted ribbon cut, etc.). IMHO, if Ivan would have had sponsership stickers from Aeroshell and Hartzell props plastered all over his gyro, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.

GyroRon

11-09-2003, 11:44 PM

Don, what is wrong with aerobatics in a ultralight?

Aussie_Paul

11-10-2003, 12:07 AM

G'day Chuck. You make some very good comments about the gyroplane fraternity ranking in the overall aviation scene. One "cowboyish" gyro club in Oz was invited by a reputable aero club to fly at their local airfield. One gyro pilot must have turned up a little early and without so much as a briefing from the local pilots of the area about local operating protocol took off. He must have thought that he was back at the local gyro strip in a paddock and raced around the country side at low level. As this area was the home of thoroughbred race horse breeding and training establishments, there was quickly a number of complaining 'phone calls to the local areo club. The gyro pilot had no radio and they just had to wait until he landed. Guess where that left the gyroplane fraternity in the eyes of the local fixed wing aero club and the local community!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That sort of irrisponsible flight behaviour really affects those of us, who, though we love to have a bit of fun, pick the time and the suitable place, and do our utmost to be neighbourhood friendly. Credibility is earned, it is not a right!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is going to be a long haul to be accepted as equals in the aviation community when gyro clubs allow this sort of behaviour. Ok, off my soap box!!!! * *Aussie Paul.

robertstodaro

11-10-2003, 12:17 AM

HEY!   what have you got against BASE jumping

Chuck_Ellsworth

11-10-2003, 02:53 AM

Hi Paul. You and I are probably wasting our time with some of the people that fly gyros and post here. Trying to point out the difference between  flying any aircraft with regard to the normal rules of safety and common sense and the desire to act like an idiot will be lost on some of these guys. I will never forget my first gyroplane ride when I went to the RAF factory for a demonstration of their gyro. Their president and only pilot took me up and without any warning started to do a very low flying demo in a nearby field. By very low I mean about two feet off the ground. Needless to say I asked him to climb up to a safe altitude and demonstrate how their gyro handled. The RAF video also had lots of low flying as part of their slick, sick, selling scam. Until the gyro fraternity weeds out the morons who gravitate to this segment of recreational flying we will continue to see a never ending high rate of fatal accidents. But both you and I already know that. Keep up the good work. Chuck E.

Chuck_Ellsworth

11-10-2003, 03:33 AM

Steven: You find my post to be elitist? Why would you make that comment? Chuck E.

donshoebridge

11-10-2003, 03:50 AM

Ron and Robert, There's nothing wrong with aerobatics in an ultralight or BASE jumping.  I just think that more people would be willing to fly under a bridge before they did either one of those activities. Chuck, The main reason I got excited about gyros in the first place is because of the low and slow flight characteristics, the engine out performance (if you can call it that), and the maneuverability.  I didn't get excited about gyros just so I could fly at 500+ AGL within a 1 mile radius around a specific airport.  I'm sure there are many people here that would say the same thing, or similar.  But then again, I'm not going to be flying under anything either, except clouds (OT). All of the morons flying gyros today could die right now and it wouldn't make a difference, because there is a large pile of morons that are willing to take over where the first batch left off.  And we all see it every time some self proclaimed pilot finds a gyro for sale at a garage sale, and within a month they've killed themselves.  I have no idea what Ivan's flight experience level is, and it doesn't really matter.  Considering the situation of when and why the video was made, Ivan was obviously doing a bit a Show Boating.  But what can be done about it now or in the future?  Nothing!  People are still going to do it. Hell, even Jim Fields (HoneyBee) did some maneuvers is his promotional video that some would call "risky" or "dangerous".  And he did it with only a few hours (6 total I think) of gyro experience.  In fairness, Jim did have about 100 hours of UL experience, if that really makes any difference.  Yet, I haven't heard a single person complain about that.  How about all of the people that fly the tight loop around the big tree at Mentone every year?  They're are at corn top level, 45+ degree bank, 1/2 a mile from any suitable landing area, and low!  Not very smart, but who's going to stop these people? Oops!  Gotta go.  The wife wants her box of soap back.

Chuck_Ellsworth

11-10-2003, 07:02 AM

I am sorry some of you feel that my opinion regarding safety and flying is elitist. I probably look at it from a different perspective. Allow me to explain about low flying and safety. My background is aerial application and fire bombing and I am an approved airshow demonstration pilot,  all of my flying was and is based on proper training and having to continually prove competency by passing flight checks. Self taught low time pilots may not be the best judge of competency. Or for that matter safety. If anyone sees me as elitist there is not much I can say except by being elitist I get paid good money to teach advanced flight training.  ;D End of rant. Chuck E.

Udi

11-10-2003, 07:36 AM

Chuck E, Your criticizing of unsafe flying is fine, but your attitude is totally arrogant.  This may be news to you but you are not smarter than everyone else and your opinions are just that -your own subjective opinions. By the way, statistically speaking, the risks you are taking as a fire bomber are much higher than the risks Ivan is taking in his movie.  I don't know what the excitement was all about, but Ivan is not really doing anything dangerous.  He was demonstrating the maneuverability and fun of gyro flying. Flying towards the trees and making a sharp turn was more of an optical illusion.  The trees were far enough and he didn't even get close to them.  (The young guy in the RFD Dominator video is doing the same kind of flying). Flying close to vehicles was also an optical illusion.  The pilot was flying straight and level above the road between the two cars.  From the camera point of view it looked as if he was landing on the roof of the other car.  So, none of you safe pilots ever flew 10 feet above the runway straight and level? Paul mentioned the skidding “stunt”.  What's the big deal with skidding?  There is nothing unsafe about it.  The rotor doesn't care that your airframe is not aligned with the flight path.  Skidding should be part of flight training, and there is nothing unsafe about it. The only part I thought was a bit risky was flying under the bridge, and again, the risk was pretty low.  I wouldn't go so far and compare that to the Vaneck's loop.  Doing a loop with a gyroplane will result in death if anything at all goes wrong.  Flying under a bridge is really a tame trick in comparison. Udi

Chuck_Ellsworth

11-10-2003, 08:02 AM

Udi : My comments were not about the movie... They were directed at a poor attitude by many gyro pilots. Nothing more , nothing less. As far as my being arrogant Udi.. you can go pound salt. How does that grab you for being arrogant ? Chuck E.

GyroRon

11-10-2003, 09:53 AM

Gee glad to see I am not the only one who feels Chuck E likes to talk down to people. I will go pound my salt now Chuck!

GyroRon

11-10-2003, 10:01 AM

Don, Flying aerobatics in a Ultralight can certainly be dangerous. BUT..... the level of danger depends on what model of ultralight, how it is maintained, what type of aerobatics are being performed and the pilots experience. It may or may not come as a surprise but there are several ultralight airplanes that are rated for aerobatics. Some are rated stronger than is possible to achieve due to the slow speeds and lack of energy due to the light weight. The Phantom and Hurricane models of ultralights are rated for over 9 G's plus and minus. There are also some Quicksilvers that were factory built for aerobatics. These are just a few that quickly come to mind. Of course there are also many ultralights that are too frail to be tossed and turned and yanked and banked. It is up to the pilot to know the limits his or her aircraft is designed for. One big plus is the fact that nearly all ultralights can be set up with a ballistic parachute.

Screw

11-10-2003, 10:07 AM

I don't get it.  What does pounding salt mean? ???

Screw

11-10-2003, 10:08 AM

If Butt holes could fly, would this place be an airport? ;D

GyroRon

11-10-2003, 10:11 AM

I am not really sure what Pound salt means John. Yes things can get heated can't they!

Screw

11-10-2003, 10:20 AM

GyroRon

11-10-2003, 10:26 AM

Good post John. Like you I feel that there are a lot of people who make statements about what is safe or not, without having firsthand experience of what their talking about. I am sure chuck has rotorcraft experience though. He has more ratings than I have hairs on my butt. but is he out flying his gyro on a regular basis? No.

Screw

11-10-2003, 10:32 AM

Hey Ron, PLease don't mention Butt hair.  I think of Klingons orbiting uranus. How come your a "Posting Machine Member" and I'm just a "Member?"  I have as much Butt hair as you.

Chuck_Ellsworth

11-10-2003, 10:46 AM

John: I first received gyro training in 1992, I have flown several types snowbird, parsons, RAF, the one that is built in Marysville Ca...cant remember the name of it but Joe gave me some stick time in it. I received my U.S. commercial on a Mc J2 somewhere around 1994 I think. Having spent fifty years flying for a living both fixed wing and helicoper including heavy lift helicopters I feel that the gyro is a very safe machine as long as it is a safe design and it is flown with due regard to airmanship. Bottom line is I do not think that simple gyroplanes such as are flown for pleasure are all that difficult to fly. The aerodynamics are slightly  different than helicopters but learning the basics is not rocket science. Dont bother asking me for exact hours on gyros, lets just say I have g flown gyros enough to understand how to fly them and I passed the FAA exams and flight test for the commercial...for what ever thats worth. I have not bothered much with posting in the gyro forums for the past couple of years due to the snotty attitudes of some of the posters. Gyro Ron comes to mind, he never misses a chance to make snotty comments directed at me. I guess I may have been a little short with Udi as I don't know him. My feelings about Gyro Ron of course are based on my history with him. Hope that covers it. By the way I never ever flew under power lines when aerial applicating, either with aeroplanes or helicopters. When power lines were a consideration we pulled up early and flew headland lines for coverage. It is a matter of safety. So as far as I am concerned anyone here that doesen't like my attitude is free to have their opinion, I just get a little testy being insulted by strangers. Chuck E.

GyroRon

11-10-2003, 11:05 AM

" Gyro Ron comes to mind, he never misses a chance to make snotty comments directed at me" Chuck, In the past you have made as many if not more attemps to make snotty comments towards me as I have you. All the ratings in the world won't keep you from being a Arsehole, and that is my only beef with you. I, like others, don't like the I am better than you attitude that you have sometimes shown. And the RAF bashing just kinda get's old too. But look, Believe it or not if we were to meet in person someday, and not have our colorful past, I am willing to bet we would get along just fine. Just ask John... He will tell you I am nicer in person. 8)

donshoebridge

11-10-2003, 11:36 AM

Ron, Concerning the aerobatic UL's, I know there are aerobatic UL's out there.  The point I was trying to make was that, in general, people's perception is that they are to fragile for such stunts.  That's all. No disrespect intended Chuck.

Chuck_Ellsworth

11-10-2003, 12:23 PM

I have met many of you who inhabit these forums and look foward to meeting you again. However I do not respond to well to anyone who publicaly refeers to me as an arsehole. I was one of the first on these forums to warn the gyro community of the problems with RAF and their product. For years I was subjected to put downs from several posters in Norms forum, time has proven that my warnings were accurate. Sadly there have been many deaths in that product, deaths that could well have been prevented had they had earlier access to Norms forum. I do not need the admiration or aproval of anyone that posts here, that was not my motivation for all the years of keeping the safety issue front and center. Those of you who know me will understand who and what I am. Those who think of me as an arshole can go  fu.k themselves.. There now, I think that should clairify my position.  ;D Chuck E.

mcbirdman

11-10-2003, 12:42 PM

Steve Says "While your comments are understandable it is only your opinion after all. * *The majority of gyro pilots got into the sport for the very reason some take it beyond the reasonable -- gyros are the most maneuverable of aircraft. " Lets see, you take a person with world wide experience coupled with even more make and model certification than I am thinking you have and you minimized it down to only one persons opinion. *You took the few short words from a person that is able to speak volumes of experience and then carry it with the same weight of consideration as a wanna be flier. *I guess you get what you pay for. *Some people get tired of being presented with *the same poor ideas and become frustrated at the shortsighted views. *There will always be people that walk with the personal knowledge of been there and done that and the young bucks who's enthusiasm flows out of their mouth so loudly they can't *appreciate it. *When they speak after being questioned about what do they know anyway -these newbies only sometimes find that maybe they were the ones who weren't listening and learning. *It takes someone *taking the time to care by writing - sometimes strongly - to drown out the less important but welcome enthusiasm to get to the point. * *Who then is really being short or disrespectful ? I know gyros are manuverable. *I am not sure that is the reason we should be flying *such manuvers . *Such flying is beyond the power curve same as an airplane or whatever. *It is still pushing the envelope from normal recoverable flight paramaters and eliminating any safety lines. *It is no different than flying an airplaine at below published stall speed or ignoring manuervering speed. *Why is that different? *It would seem fire fighting or air rescue is often done out of neccesity and better left to the proffesionals. *Seing such films of proffesionals in action we are aware of the danger and the reason for risk. *Final responsibility rests on the pilot. *That video was interesting and fun to watch but it comes down to hot dogging and does end up leaving an impression for the viewer - that this is normal flying that anyone can do. * I don't know if it is crazy, I am just not sure if it is smart. *

Screw

11-10-2003, 01:09 PM

dvs1

11-10-2003, 02:04 PM

well guys;I had a good laugh.Reading all of this bickering,this is what I learned from this post.If any person don't agree with another. than that who is the arrogant arshole can go what to himself? Where can I find this video,sounds intrestering?!!

Chuck_Ellsworth

11-10-2003, 02:36 PM

John: This will be my last comments on this subject. What possible difference does it make when I last flew a gyro or if I am flying a gyro as I write this? What difference does it make if I " got my rating and moved on" Are you suggesting that unless I fly a gyro constantly I am unable to understand the issues surrounding gyro flight? No need to talk to Ron about his name calling. Ron has demonstrated a lack of respect on more than one occasion, of course it really is of no great importance in the grand scheme of things as long as he preceives himself as some kind of an expert that is fine with me. So I guess we can leave things at that. Chuck E.

Screw

11-10-2003, 03:11 PM

Screw

11-10-2003, 03:17 PM

BTW, What the hell is "Pounding Salt?"

Udi

11-10-2003, 03:31 PM

I don't care how many ratings a person is holding or how many gazillion hours they've got.  The first rule for communicating on a public forum is showing some respect to your fellow members. Let me quote a few sentences by Mr. Ellsworth, all from today: To Paul: You and I are probably wasting our time with some of the people that fly gyros and post here. Trying to point out the difference between  flying any aircraft with regard to the normal rules of safety and common sense and the desire to act like an idiot will be lost on some of these guys. Until the gyro fraternity weeds out the morons who gravitate to this segment of recreational flying we will continue to see a never ending high rate of fatal accidents. But both you and I already know that. To Steven: You find my post to be elitist? Why would you make that comment? Yeh, I wonder why?? To Udi: As far as my being arrogant Udi.. you can go pound salt. How does that grab you for being arrogant ? (I had to look this one up...  :-[  gross... ) To Ron (not directly): Those who think of me as an arshole can go  fu.k themselves..   This guy has got a real problem with his attitude.  If you think you know a lot and want to share your wisdom with the group, that's great.  But this kind of snotty attitude and street language is not going to make people want to hear what you have to say.   Udi-

Udi

11-10-2003, 03:40 PM

John, I had to look this one up...  Here is the explanation to "go pound salt": http://www.wordwizard.com/clubhouse/founddiscuss.asp?Num=4826 I guess this is common language for high-time multi-rating super-smart know-it-all aviators.  What do you know. Udi-

Chuck_Ellsworth

11-10-2003, 04:25 PM

I have read all my comments. It is a fact that the gyro community is looked at as a fringe group, many of you complain about it yourselves. Some of you don't care for my attitude thats your privilege. Chuck E.

mcbirdman

11-10-2003, 05:56 PM

I never said anyone should/should not be put down.  I have read the stupid article by Wallis in Rotorcraft magazine.  Would such a piece be expected of a guy with all those records and years?  Still - there it was....I have been reading this the rotorcraft conference for several years.  It just seemed as soon as someone said something in regards to safety, something he must consider proffesionally, it was diverted over to something like - And I should listen to you because you are...... ----   If a person comes right out and says what they have done and all their accomplishments and then their comments I would tend to agree that the person is flashing their "badge" of authority.  On the other hand if someone steps back and says "show me your badge" it seems like they are somehow going to measure it first before they will listen.  People were saying what they were flying as if it made a difference to whether or not they would consider it dangerous.  I think the point being made is the same as the point in previous post that any machine flew under it's limits of safe recovery is not a smart thing to do and does show a certain lack of judgement or at least lack of concern.  It doesn't matter if it is a j3 or a gyro or a one seater or 10 seater as he pointed out.  There is no safety to fall back on and leaves viewers with the wrong impression as it is not ambulatory or firefighting, just hot dogging to impress others.  It is succsessful in that regard. It is clear that the more a person types the more there is to pick apart.  Even a few words picked out can seem to weaken an otherwise very strong message.  The opposite of this is a short to the point comment from which a lot of tone could be imagined.  This conference is great though don't you think?   jtm

Aussie_Paul

11-10-2003, 06:27 PM

Hi Paul. You and I are probably wasting our time with some of the people that fly gyros and post here. Trying to point out the difference between *flying any aircraft with regard to the normal rules of safety and common sense and the desire to act like an idiot will be lost on some of these guys. I will never forget my first gyroplane ride when I went to the RAF factory for a demonstration of their gyro. Their president and only pilot took me up and without any warning started to do a very low flying demo in a nearby field. By very low I mean about two feet off the ground. Needless to say I asked him to climb up to a safe altitude and demonstrate how their gyro handled. The RAF video also had lots of low flying as part of their slick, sick, selling scam. Until the gyro fraternity weeds out the morons who gravitate to this segment of recreational flying we will continue to see a never ending high rate of fatal accidents. But both you and I already know that. Keep up the good work. Chuck E. Chuck, I was a little upset but not surprised with your inclusion of me in your post. I am afraid that I am closer to a lot of these people than I am to you. You have always had a way with words Chuck, unfortunately it is often not a nice way. You and I started out fighting because you kept telling me how good you are. I think that it was very unfair of you to include me in your post. Yes guys, I have a bit of a mouth, BUT I am out there actually improving things, not just bagging Raf and you guys.  Chuck, you and I have learnt to put up with one another and when you come to Oz one day we will have a drink and chew the fat as it were. Recreational flying is not in the same stream as what you do professionally for a living. I know safety is safety BUT when you only involve and risk yourself the stakes are not so high. That is why the CPL standards are higher than the PPL standards which are higher than ultralight standards. It is the degree for the intended purpose. Chuck please do not get upset with me, but I feel that my passion for gyroplane flying sits with a lot of the posters here, and I would rather not have them throw me in the same basket as yourself. I was hoping that I had earned more respect than that. Maybe I havn't. Cheers Chuck, until we meet one day. Aussie Paul.

Fiesty

11-10-2003, 11:35 PM

Chuck: In this world we have quite a few would-be experts(drips under pressure). The old axiom--all that altitude above you and runway behind you is of no benfit! I love low time inexperienced experts! There is very  few old BOLD pilots. You and I have seen a lot of fools in our time and they all react the same.  Experts Keep up the work,  maybe someone will listen to you and Paul. Randy, CFI Rotorcraft (helicopter and Airplane).

Udi

11-11-2003, 02:04 AM

Randy, I am afraid you too have missed the point. *All of us come to this, and other, forums to share ideas, discuss issues - including safety, and most of all - learn. *We really appreciate the presence and contribution of experienced builders and pilots like Ausie Paul, yourself, and many others. *I do believe Chuck E. has much knowledge to share with this group but nobody likes to be talked down to. *We are here to discuss ideas, not to be preached to. *You can't expect people to take your words as gospel just "because you say so", and it doesn't matter who you are (unless you're my wife... ). Udi-

Chuck_Ellsworth

11-11-2003, 02:50 AM

Paul: I apologize for having mentioned your name . I understand your position and will respect it. With regards to my visiting you in Australia, I would feel uncomfortable Paul, what if someone in the gyro world found you talking to me? So thanks for the offer. I will find another group to discuss flying with and leave this one to its own resourses. I have never and will never associate with any group that considers me to be some kind of a virus that may infect their sterile world. Chuck E.

Whirlydog

11-11-2003, 03:54 AM

>:( *WE will allways reap what we sow. *You may be the most knowledgeable person in the world, but when you give advise and it is laced with "you are a stupid idiot" aditude, very few will hear the message. *You have sown a seed of desention that comes back at you manyfold. * I think what everybody is asking, looking, expecting from each other on this forum is respect. *Thus to recieve this respect, *all we have to do is treat each other with respect, that means no name calling and treating any others opinion as stupid. *We all have different knowledge and experiences that can benifit each other. *I am sure most of us have heard the phrase "If you can't say something nice then don't say anything at all". *If we want to talk safety, then talk safety, *if you percieve a design flaw on somethig, then you can degrade the design and discuss solutions all you want, but if we attack the designer, he is forced to defend himself and all usefull info goes out the window. * Treat each other respectfully and we all gain respect and knowledge back, if you show disrepect toward others opinions and or persons, expect to receive disrespect back. *It is as simple as that. * If you don't want to be called an arrogant bastard then don't be an arragant bastard. Most of us are hear to learn, *and enjoy a free discussion of ideas, new theorys, accomplishments, ect. *If the only way you can express your opinion/knowledge is through criticizing, then I say good ridence, becuase you have become more of a nuisance, than helpful. Let us continue to learn and gain respect for each other, and may this forum allways be a place of learning and enjoyment. * :P *

TommyRust

11-11-2003, 05:54 AM

Observation. It sure did not take long for this nice new forum to stoop to the senceless and assinine name calling like the old forum. Gentilemen agree to disagree. Nothing is sacred. When I was a kid I was told a bumble bee could not fly because when its wings and body were measured it was not aerodynamic.  But it still fly's. The sport of flying has aways had those individuals that pushed the envelop and there has always been someone to say they were crazy. Lets learn from each others sucesses and mistakes and be civil in our intelectual intercourse.

Heron

11-11-2003, 06:38 AM

I just can't believe what I am reading here! As I go down to the posts I move from analysing the skills of the pilot, the professionalism of the video crew and what message they are trying to convey to analysing the deep circumvolutions of the human mind . . . You guys should not be picking on poor ol'Chuck like that, he is a legend you know? Here we go again . . . Chuck? Are you saying that you are leaving this Forum on your first battle? Are you losing it? Since when you started doing things on peer pressure? Oh! Oh! C'mon, lets get back to the subject . . . Heron

Aussie_Paul

11-11-2003, 08:10 AM

No No No Chuck, please have that drink with me. I would not give a s**t who saw us together. We may have different views on a number of subjects, BUT I would be honoured to be seen with you discussing what we both have done in aviation. I would love to hear the Calalina, firebombing, film making flying etc stories, as I am sure that you would love to hear how, as a 12 y/o I towed my dad with my 65 y/o grandmother sitting on his knee, in our gyroglider in 1961. Nan had come out to the farm tell my dad that he should be more responsible. "you have a young family" she said, but Nan had a ride and loved it!!!!!!!! Never a word against the "odd type" of flying machine after that!!!!! Some of the things we did back then, like towing the gyroglider around country roads, with me broadsiding the car around a 90 degree corner, and Dad going out wide like a water skier to maintain airspeed. Ivan has a bit to learn yet!!!! LOL Aussie Paul.

Chuck_Ellsworth

11-11-2003, 08:31 AM

Of course I will come to visit you.... I was just trying to snap you back into reality Paul. ;D Remember the good old days when you thought I was a total idiot? Why I remember you even tried on that "  how much time do you have on Gyros and the RAF " when I stated the thing was badly flawed and aerodynamically unstable. What saddens me is all the innocent people that are no longer with us due to ignorance of the very simple facts of gyro aerodynamics and believing you can ignore physics like some here have been trying to flog for years. Yeh, Paul one day I will just appear, hell I will bring my Australian CAA documents just for fun. So don't worry Paul I would love to visit you, quite frankly I admire those who change their beliefe systems once they see the light. All the best to you and your family this coming holiday and new year.... Chuck E.

Screw

11-11-2003, 08:48 AM

Chuck, For the record, I don't want you to leave at all.  I think you input is of great value. Again, if I offended you, it wasn't my intent and you have my appologies for being blunt.

Chuck_Ellsworth

11-11-2003, 09:16 AM

John : No problem at all. *;D You couldn't offend me if you shoved a uzi up my as.. *;D In fact in Africa I've had it threatened and didn't work worth a damn. With me what you see is what you get, no grey areas just up fromt me. *;D Those who are offended by such arrogance can go back and read my comments on what to do to themselves. *;D So maybe we will find common ground. Chuck

airRanger

11-11-2003, 11:24 AM

CHUCK E. said.......... I have never and will never associate with any group that considers me to be some kind of a virus that may infect their sterile world. Chuck E. Wheeeew,   I thought he'd Never back down!

DougKspokane

11-11-2003, 02:32 PM

Holy crap!  What happened while I was gone.  Here I sit in my motel in Boise trying to get more information about gyrocopters and I find THIS?!  I thought the discussion was about "Ivan"... not Chuck and John and Paul and ...  ...  Wow!  Cool your jets and get back to the subject matter, ok?

Heron

11-11-2003, 10:34 PM

Thanks Doug . . .that's more likely! Let me see . . .hmmmm .... WE were talking about this excelent machine that looks like a Dominator (is it Ernie?) and this pilot that seems to know what he is doing and had a script to follow. Now you add some plains in Russia that look very low altitude and very cold air, possibiliy the most dense other than the poles and you see this gyro in the air dangling as it was suspended in strings. Get yourself some knowledgeable video crew and voilá . . .you have a great gyro video. Now comes the hard part: There was idiots, there are idiots and there always gonna be idiots, thank you very much! (use that guy's tone) If a student sees this video and goes out on his own trying to replicate the tricks, than he is an idiot and video or no video one day his idiocy will catch up with him. Disclaimer here for other events that can lead to an accident. I ask God to protect that pilot so he can live long and give us more of that drooling kind of flying . . .I have plenty of napkins! . . .and Chuck . . .aw forget it! thanks Heron

barnstorm2

11-12-2003, 12:16 PM

Been under bridges many times myself... Course I was in my boat. It is neat. There is a sort of psycological barrer there somehow. My girlfriends daughter Kristina is actually afraid when we take the boat under the big bridges in Cincinnati, she 'can't watch' and closes her eyes... go figgure. ??? Anyone know if you can fly under bridges in Mexico or Canada?? Maybe we could hold a fly-in there and get it all out of our systems! ;D

schipperke

11-13-2003, 06:58 AM

???  Where is the video?

Screw

11-13-2003, 09:01 AM

;D

donshoebridge

11-13-2003, 09:50 PM

The video in question can be found at Rotor/Wings Sports TV's website.  I don't have their URL handy.  WARNING: The file size is huge! Don

gyromike

11-13-2003, 11:13 PM

Here is the link for the Russian video: http://www.rotorwingsportstv.com/russian700.wmv There are two other videos also: http://www.rotorwingsportstv.com/roc700demo.wmv http://www.rotorwingsportstv.com/gettingstartedprogressive.wmv

scottessex

11-14-2003, 07:13 AM

Jesus Christ! Ya'll call that dangerous!?  :o So is riding a bicycle without a helmet!! I can't believe everyone has their pantys in a wad over this. Hell they fly military jets under the golden gate bridge, And I have seen films of a C-130 landing on a carrier!! We used to re-fuel HH-53's in flight.

DougKspokane

11-14-2003, 08:10 AM

I just getting into gyrocopters, so I have everything to learn.  I suppose - for me - the question is more "does this type of video excite skilled pilots to fly like that or does it incite novices to try it and most likely hurt themselves."  What are we teaching our young?, kinda thing.

schipperke

11-14-2003, 10:07 AM

Thanks, downloaded the clip. * Basically a yawnfest. If the guy is a good swimmer, then go for it. *You wouldn't catch me flying that low over water, so when the engine decides to poop out I'd be sinking. *On the other hand, I can remeber an isolated incident around 1980 where someone flew a 152 under the Chesapeake Bay Bridge... * *Big problem with flying under bridges, is there are sometimes cables hanging from them, ouch! *Much of the flying looked like what students do unintentionally, lots of slipping, getting behind the power curve, and uncoordinated flight. No Special Skill - Just Dangerous

Chuck_Ellsworth

11-14-2003, 10:41 AM

I finally had a chance to watch the film. Some comments. Low flying over a snow covered surface with flat light is very risky due to the difficulty of judging height much like glassy water. What would the verdict have been if he had hit the photographer? As for the bridge thing, seems he did it on different days judging by the surface of the water. But the question remains , why fly under a bridge to start with? Quite frankly it is my opinion that demonstrations such as these can leave the impression that this is normal for gyro flying. Just my own thoughts on it.

Thumpernator

11-14-2003, 03:06 PM

Can I get in on this?   ;D First of all, I don't believe the arguement that something should not be done because a viewer may think they can also do it.  I watch a motorcycle road race and see those guys laying those bikes over so far that I wonder why they don't fall and break their necks.  A person 'should' have enough sense to realize that those riders are professionals.  I, for one, am not going to try to ride my motorcycle in the same manner. What should really be analyzed here is Risk and Error Management.  Included in that is the recognition of the Risks and managing them.   Each maneuver can be analyzed for the risks involved and then deciding whether the maneuver is worth doing. For instance, what are the risks in flying sideways close to the ground?  Several come to mind, such as; 1.  Low altitude flight 2.  Equipment failure 3.  Weather conditions 4.  Pilot experience with the maneuver 5.  Etc, Etc Each item should be analyzed to see if the risks can be managed to a level where the risk is minimal and acceptable. Errors should also be considered.  In other words, if the pilot failed to apply enough power and started to sink, could that error be managed to recover?  Or would that error lead to making another error?   When accidents/incidents are analyzed, the bad ones are usually the result of an error that was mishandled which led to another error, and another, etc,  and then the whole situation had the snowball effect. Just to give you guys an example, consider this.  Airlines fly two engine jets across the Atlantic up to 180 minutes (the 180 minute rule) from a suitable airport (a suitable airport is one that can handle the aircraft and has weather conditions which would permit an instrument approach procedure for that aircraft), with only one engine operating, and is based on operating with no wind. But the 180 minute rule was not the original rule.  Back before the jet engine, the piston powered aircraft had to go the northern route over Greenland and Iceland to get to Europe.  There were many engine failures and many airplanes were lost at sea. With the jet engine came more reliability.  Engine failures were less frequent and through the years, these engines are very close to 100% reliable.   When I say almost, I'm talking about only ONE engine shutdown for every 100,000 hours of flight time.  That's a very high reliablitiy. With that reliability came new rules/authorizations.  The 60 minute rule came out, then the 120 minute rule, and then the 180 minute rule.  Some operators even have 207 minute authority. So what am I getting at?  Well, even with professional pilots and the most modern equipment available, the risks are analyzed to see if they can be managed safely.  Procedures are written to monitor maintenance practices, reliability of components, and pilot training. We, as General Aviation pilots, should also follow that lead.  Before each flight, analyze the risks.   Is my aircraft in the best condition as it can be?   Am I feeling 100%?  Can my skill level meet the demands of the current weather conditions?  What if the weather changes?  And so on, and so on. So, a better excercise to do, rather than just rating Ivan as to whether he was reckless or skilled, would be to do this.  Watch the video again and identify the risks.  Then ask yourself how you would manage those risks.   Were those risks manageable?  Would pilot skill/training help in determining if that 'risk' was manageable? We don't know for sure if Ivan analyzed his flight for risks.  We can only guess.  But we may be able to learn a little from it. I've done some really stupid things in my flying, too.  And most likely, I'll do another stupid stunt.  No one is perfect.  But maybe ole Charlie P. will hit me on the head before that happens.

GyroRon

11-15-2003, 12:22 AM

Well blah blah blah! I just watched it again - haven't seen it in months - and all I can say is that was some great flying and I am off to the airport shortly! Got to go gyro flying after watching that!

Chuck_Ellsworth

11-15-2003, 01:56 AM

Hey Thumper: Do tou guys have BGBW ( Narsarsuaq ) as an alternate for your ETOPS? I saw a 757 operating in there and wondered how many airlines have it as an alternate. Chuck

Thumpernator

11-15-2003, 03:50 PM

It doesn't ring a bell, but I can check our Master Ops Specs on Monday.  Actually, I've never heard of it.  You didn't just make that up, did you.   ;D

11-15-2003, 05:41 PM

HELLO ALL! I'm Steve; the one who started this post.  I haven't been online for a week or so.  Imagine my surprise at all the comments.  I just spent the last hour reading all of them. First off, thanks for all the advice!  I appreciate the range of opinions and will use them to form my own. Although high-spirited at times, I hope that the collective opinions won't dissuade any of you from continuing to read and post again.  We (newbees) need as much input as we can get.   Thanks again to all of you, Steve

Hognose

11-24-2003, 05:33 AM

BGBW ( Narsarsuaq ) as an alternate for your ETOPS? Dang. I just wrote a review of a Sporty's video on flying the Atlantic in lightplanes. In the nav textbook used at Riddle there are five transatlantic routings given; the expert for Sporty's, Capt. Ed Carlson, uses three with Narsarsuaq being his center one. The video is expensive ($85 with an AOPA credit-card discount) but I enjoyed it -- brought out the Mitty in me big time. Part 1: http://www.aero-news.net/news/genav.cfm?ContentBlockID=5f2cebe0-99e5-4203-8411-c409d0dffdfe&Dynamic=1 Part 2: http://www.aero-news.net/news/genav.cfm?ContentBlockID=9a92e283-9f5b-425b-af62-7cb559a0f77c&Dynamic=1 After viewing the video, I looked at the possibility of flying a gyro over the Atlantic. It could be done with the right gyro, the right support, and the northernmost route, but you would probably have to add one more stop, the Faeroes; and weather there is always dodgy. I don't believe anyone has done it yet. cheers -=K=- Oh yeah... the Ivan video... some of the stuff he's doing is stuff that would be nuts in a fixed wing (steep turns right after take off, 70 knots on the deck) but gives you a little more wiggle room in the gyro. Come to think of it, high speed (for a gyro) on the deck is unreasonably risky in FW and even more so in helicopter, but with the gyro you can turn airspeed to a little altitude and select a better landing place. I thought the most hazardous stuff there was flying formation with the Explorer. and we don't know how that shot was planned, set-up and briefed. It looks like this was video shot for an action film of some kind, and then repurposed for the gyro promo. Some of the things in the video violate Part 91 regs, like the bridge flight -- permissible with a waiver, otherwise, "certificate action" in the USA ("But your honor, the rule says within 500 feet above any person, vehicle, vessel or structure... I wasn't above!" ain't gonna fly). Just my opinion. -K

Chuck_Ellsworth

11-24-2003, 10:26 AM

Ed Carlson was heading eastbound in an Aztec in July and we spent a night talking to him in the hotel Narsaruaq. There is also a good video availiable from www.flightfilms.com Two guys in a Mooney flew the Southern route, worth buying just for the scenery. For free you can look at . www.chuckellsworth.com Just go to links in the site and click on the left picture, you will find about fifty to seventy five pictures of our last ferry flight, which was via the Southern route. When looking at Greenland it might give you some serious thoughts about flying any single engine machine on that route. Fuel range would be the biggest problem with a gyro. Maybe a Little wing could be built with enough range....hmmmm. Flying the Northern route the longest over water leg would be Keflavik to Vagar in the Faeroe Islands 431 NM then 250 NM to Wick Scotland.   Sooner or later someone will do it.

mcbirdman

11-24-2003, 12:10 PM

I wondered how long it would take before someone else noticed.... *Everyone is so worried about the bridge. *I just think it is REAL *smart to land on a moving car..... *When people were polled it didn't really have a way to express that since he didn't crash he was working within his skill level but then it assumed he was an excellent pilot. I think it isn't always the flying that makes a good pilot. *It is what is going on in their brain - even before they go flying that matters. * That is probably why you see people think it is perfectly fine to fly this way and want to argue with seasoned pilots that have been succsessful at the type of risk managment as Dave pointed out. *It becomes more apparent when a great post is made and someone just says literally well - blah blah blah *and is so inspired by it that he needs to rush off to the airport to do some more gyro flying. *I think in this way I can see why there has been so much head butting going on. *Two different attitudes about flying. * Why is it that the seasoned pilot is usually more methodical and conservative in his actions than a person who just starts out flying especially in *something that doesn't require training? *Hopefully with training the know it all attitude and rubbing people the wrong way will be repaced with the respect for the people that still took the time to try to change the attitude of the younger enthusiastic know it all. * If I had the choice of having a young *doctor who is so impressed and thrilled with himself passing certification - *and a doctor who has that plus the years of practice... *I would assume they both can cut - but how big will the opening be? *Does the big new doctor with the big talk figure he is doing a big job which also needs a big incision? *I would think the seasoned doctor makes the incision big enough to do the job but not so big that it causes increased risk of infection or a longer recovery time or more pain. *I don't want to suffer more than I need to and don't really want to get sick either. * The young doctor will hopefully slowly realize how they come across to others and how much they need each other. *In this highly customized market it sure doesn't hurt to have friends. *It sure doesn't hurt to listen. *If you are to busy to listen it can hurt. Well, anyway Blah Blah Blah, I just watched E R and now I can't wait to go open my medicine cabinet... * * Sorry, now I kind of figured out what it was I didn't like. *I don't like to see people try to talk down to people when they themselves aren't respectful in anything they have achieved in life. *Sure, they could get a good deal on an aircraft and be lucky enough to survived some events but end up thinking they are experts. *At first they say a certificate is just a piece of paper and then later they say - well- once I get my certificate that should mean something. * It can't be both ways unless you make up the rules as you go and just do what you want. *To a person that has taken the time to go through the training it would seem the person is thumbing their nose at authority. *Then when they have managed to tee off enough people who really do know - they try to become one of those people they scoffed at that hold a piece of paper. *Sure a person might be able to fly, but the attitude given is not something I am jealous of or would not want to be like. *Even with the paperwork I wouldn't call this a mature pilot attitude. *I don't like that. *It would be in a situation like this that I would agree with the person that wrote a few weeks ago that a piece of paper means nothing because what has changed? *Not the attitude which I think is very important in more things than just flying. *Where is all this going? *If you think you know it all and enjoy acting like some kind of a seasoned pilot who has nothing to learn then go ahead and keep patting yourself on the back. *You're going to be the only one doing it because no one else will. *I would rather listen to someone who knows what they are talking about and can take all those years of experience and try to narrow it down to a few words that will be of great help. *It's just kind of hard hearing them when others try to distract from their message by being boisterous. * * Some of you may wish to aspire to one day fly just like that, and that you may. *I just can't see where this kind of flying would be accepted as the normal procedure and that even upon *reflection would still not be considered risky behavior. *I think I start to see what Chuck *is saying about not just finding someone to fly the plane but choosing the right person to put in it. *I think he is right - there is more to it than that. * I think that is why flags went up so fast for him when answering someone else. *I think he was a few steps ahead of where he knew he was going to end up.* That kind of experience is exactly why *a seasoned doctor won't make the incision to small or too big because he knows that to do so it would mean making the incision too big or too small. *The less expierienced doctor, although not admitting it, is just guessing.

GyroRon

11-24-2003, 01:57 PM

James I typed up two long ass replies to your post and threw em both away. I just GOT to reply in some fashion or another so as the almighty one would say....... James Go Pound Salt * *;D Seriously James I really honestly think you got me all wrong and that is the way communicating on a keyboard can sometimes be. you see I was joking above about pounding salt and stuff. Just like I was when I said Blah Blah Blah I am going flying.

Aussie_Paul

11-24-2003, 06:57 PM

What I have learn't out of this is that "ATTITUDE" is what makes the pilot. Aussie Paul.

Heron

11-25-2003, 12:36 AM

Wow! ::)

mcbirdman

11-25-2003, 01:30 PM

Hi Ron, * Maybe I do have it wrong. *It is hard to type as fast as we think and by the time we get it down and wait for another reply the moment is lost. *Some people might think shortness is abrubtness, just like longer posts with more detail might seem like a lecture. *I like either kind for different reasons. * No problem. Paul, that IS pretty much it. *It is Pilot attitude that affects the pilot's altitude. Poor attitude Poor altitude. If the engine were to fail, and a BAD crash would occur in those low altitude situations..... would people still have voted it is an excellent pilot flying within his skill level? *I don't think so. *Does that make sense that the difference here is really about if he made it or not? Hard to believe no one said anything about the "great" decision to put the gear on a moving car. It goes back to attitude affecting altitude. take care, jtm*

GyroRon

11-25-2003, 01:47 PM

James, I didn't see the gear touch the SUV. It did look close though. But if his engine quit I think he would have been able to easily slow down and land behind the SUV on the road or in the field next to the road. Certainly it wasn't the safest way to fly a aircraft. James also wanted to let you know that those two votes on your poll about Ivan in the bottom selection for " just plain crazy".... I was one of them.

mcbirdman

11-25-2003, 03:46 PM

Hi Ron,  That wasn't MY poll.  I put my vote down that he was an excellent  pilot but flying dangerously because I figured he was good enough to do the manuvers. That wasn't exactly how I felt.  I felt he was sucsessful in doing what he did but landing or trying to land on a vehicle  is way to close for comfort.  Engine, gust, shudder, swerve, blowout, change of speed, in the interupted airflow  - or any other number of reasons have him flying full bore inches or less from a moving vehicle - with the intent and positioning to do so.   Why is it that everyone is so worried about flying under a bridge when he is trying to land on a moving vehicle?   I would change my answer down to yours.  It makes sense especially in this case to say attitude affects altitude.  I don't think this is an excellent pilot.  I would say he was sucsessful in the completion of the manuevers but only to classify him as a backyard barnstormer.  That isn't an excellent pilot, just a daring one.  No one is going to tell him different though because he already made up his mind - the attitude to fly at such altitude. I would suppose then that you also find it surprising the number of people that see nothing wrong with this type of flying....  take care, jtm

GyroRon

11-26-2003, 12:10 AM

Well James I personally liked the video. It got me excited to go to the airport and drag out the gyro and go flying. I would say what the video did for me is simular to say watching one of the Late Ken Brock's airshow performances. Or watching Gary Goldsberry fly his black bensen at Bensen Days. Or watching Steve McGowan pretty much anywhere. Or watching Jim V doing a loop. Or Watching - and participating - in the low and fast cat and mouse chase games over the cow pastures at Bensen Days. Or watching any number of people that fly beyond straight and level at 2000 feet. It is exicting and fun to watch. Don't you agree? IOW's my opinion is that although in the end Ivan wasn't flying as safe as he could and he really pushed things to the edge with a few moves here and there...... I also from experience - ie. I have flown gyros for the past 3 years and have several hundred hours of flying time in them - *Know that 90 percent of what he did was perfectly controllable and and not dangerously on or over the line. James I mean no harm by this comment, But your still a non gyro pilot. Right? what I am saying is until you yourself have been in the seat and logged some hours and gotten to know and feel what you and your machine are able to do, it is not totally fair to judge anothers flying. Sure... anyone can see that flying off the roof of a moving vehicle was certainly un safe flying. But the difference is a somewhat experienced gyro pilot would know that say flying cross controlled like he did was nothing special or very risky. Or the tight turn after takeoff in the beginning of the video, or IMHO the flying under the bridge - the risk there was the fact that he only had water to land in if he had problems, but maybe he is a good swimmer ;) Anyhow I am not discrediting you James because or aren't yet flying your gyro, I am just pointing out that once you get some time in your machine you may see things slightly differently. Most of the comments in this thread especially the negative ones are made by non gyro pilots or newbies - and that is fine, but I bet that once they have some time in their future machines they too will see it in a different way than the way they see it now. Again one more time I am not trying to discredit you James, so please don't take it that way.

mcbirdman

11-26-2003, 04:38 AM

Hi Ron, I see your point. *No offence either. * No I don't have my gyro finished yet. *I really look forward to the day I can start testing. *I have logged a few hours in gyros including RAF and Steve McGowens Parson. *I am checked out for 150s, 172's and our Cherokee Archer that my partner and I own. *I guess I have about 80 something hours. *I just have been distracted on finishing out because it is so hard to run my business, watch my kids, build the gyro and find time to fly. *I am progressing though at times it doesn't feel like it. *I also have 5 R/c helicopters (one of which is 3.8 hp.) * Let me tell you how difficult they are to control compared to just being in one...... The controls appear crossed when it comes at you and you have to take orientation into account before you move the stick plus the changing rotor pitch and tail control. *Much harder than flying anything in real life. *I am not a 3d flyer like some I see. *Pretty impressive stunts.... Anyway, No - I am pretty much upfront about my experience, and my dreams. *I guess I fall somewhere in between. *A learning Builder excited with the dream of flight but tempered ( tethered ?) with the reality of paperwork, responsibility, knowledge that is required just to go out and fly. Why is it that by the time we are able to live our dreams we find out they aren't what we thought? *I guess that is why they call it a dream? *I enjoyed watching the video also. *I would even love to have an occasion to ride Nape of Earth but I wouldn't want to do so regularly. *It is risky and I wouldn't have to fly more hours to say that there is a small margin safety by flying that close. *Any one small change would result in a loss. * I guess what does bother me about the video is that it seems amateur - like shot on a whim - which makes it appear like other videos of people doing stupid stunts in their backyards like jumping off the roof into a pool. *Or the video that was obtained by police of the teens who were driving around and attacking unsuspecting pedestrians. *This was the first video I have seen with the gyro doing what it could, I enjoyed it. *The takeoff with the trees did not bother me because I could see the options available. *I just don't get why someone would risk landing on a car. *It isn't some highly paid risk for a movie (proffesional planned stunt) - just looks like something he decided to do - as casual as throwing a piece of gum in his mouth and blowing a bubble. *This is nowhere near 500 feet away from objects. *We know that we can come closer with control. How about 250 or 100 feet. *What about 50 or 25 or 5 feet? *Where should we draw the line? *If we allow the danger limit to slowly fall down to a few feet then inches I think that the pilot has poor attitude because he has poor altitude.  I guess this to me is what makes him the just plain crazy pilot that you voted, and I should have. *With this back alley type of presentation it can leave the impression to others learning about gyros that this is how we fly normally. *Sort of like - here is just another clip I made flying yesterday..... * Thats all I mean by it. *Take care *jtm * *

Heron

11-26-2003, 06:49 AM

I wonder what those guys would have to say about all this "Crazy Ivan" thing. I hope they will take it as a "bonding" term some sort of term of endearment (??) Those maneuvers are possible in a gyro, they look wonderfully done and it was a calculated risk, taken after some assesment by a group of experient gyro personnel. Bravo to them! I believe one day I will do something more edgy while flying and when landed I will celebrate and enjoy the moment with "the guys" that did it before me and shown me how to do it . . . Thanks Heron Ah! some of my friends still want to commit me to an institution because I am studying gyros, go figure!!!

GyroRon

11-26-2003, 10:55 AM

Well we must remember that this video was made in Russia and maybe they have different rules and possibly have lower standards for " safety". I don't think the video was put together with the intentions of Newbies using it as a intro to gyros. I, to be honest, really have no clue why it was made....

mcbirdman

11-26-2003, 12:23 PM

Thats for sure.  Look at the jets they copied.  Once we got some of them in our hands it turned out they were pretty much skeletons. I don't know either.  It still looks like a good old boy party that just happens.  It is that cavalier attitude that shows both in" the trenches" type videography and the "demonstrations of flying that were a bit alarming.  I saw the video a while ago and until I got the Dan D tapes, were the most fun to watch.  These new ones are both fun and informative to a person that wants to know a little more.  Enjoy your flying, wish I were.  We may get brave and fly down to Bensen Days.  Problem with that though is ground transportation once we land.  We'll see. jtm

GyroRon

11-26-2003, 12:26 PM

you know some of the flying in the dd videos was kinda wild too!

twistair

11-26-2003, 08:23 PM

Gentlemen, Beeing I believe a closest person to the places where this video was made, to those people who is shown and to this particular aircraft flown in this video ;) I'd like to clear some things about it. Dmitry Rakitskiy who performs flying on this video is a professional multirating pilot, having good experience in gliders, balloons, fixed-wings, helicopters and gyros. He is also a professional test-pilot (not military pilot) and a very cold-minded pilot. I know him for years and he was my CFI for gyros. He is adequately estimating every flight and he never makes his flying more risky than normal aviation risk level. Most scenes of these video were made for some popular TV programms and there was no goal to shock people - just to show what gyro could do (well, to be exact: just to show what gyro could do when operated by an ace - it was mentioned specially!). Some shots may seem risky - like the formation driving behind a jeep, but actually the situation was (I was on sites during all these days) completely controlled. Actually the distance between the jeep and the gyro was bigger than it is seen - just an effect of video, Finally, it was our only gyro and Dima was our only profy so nobody wanted to miss gyro nor pilot  ;D As for the bridge...Yes, we have the same regs regarding flying above and under obstacles like US FARs have, so flying under bridges is not legal here too buttttt... This particular bridge is located very comfortably both in sense of flying under it physically and beeing claimed after this flying personally   ;). I can tell  that when I did my very first flight in gyro - it was in 1999, Dmitry let me drive this Domin after half an hour of introductory flight (sure, he stayed in the back seat) and after 5 more minutes I flew under this bridge without any doubts and knee-jerking at all - it is really very suitable bridge for these things. I can only tell that this bridge is used for flying under it regularly by all the local general aviation pilots. It is actually a part of introductory flight for almost every wannabee-a-pilot The only craft which was found uncomfortable to fly under it was L-29 jet trainer ;D I just wanted to clear that there are no desperados here - all shown in this videotape was done by real profy with clear understanding of his skill and risk level. Sure we never recommend to anybody to copy these tricks. Just my 2 cs

Heron

11-26-2003, 10:22 PM

Thanks Alex! Haven't you guys asked Erníe's permission to call them Dominators? Ratzisky Rules! Thanks Heron

twistair

11-26-2003, 11:00 PM

You're early bird, Ron :) These two gyros flown at the video are completely original Dominators (powered by Rotax-618) - purchased and imported from Ernie. We only built and added skiis, intake heater and rotor brake. The two are still flying though they now  have other owners and are located far from Moscow. After that (after we showed to local guys HOW the right gyro can fly)at least half a dozen of different groups and individuals built some copies of Domin, mostly using Ernie's rotors and rotorheads, but nobody calls them "Dominator". Cheers, Alex

Chuck_Ellsworth

11-27-2003, 02:20 AM

Hi Alex!! Good to hear from someone in Russia. During my years of flying in Africa I met and flew with many Russians and they were the nicest people one would ever want to fly with. Africa is full of Russian airplanes, helicopters and of course guns and missiles. I had the privilage of flying the MI 8 helicopter in Niger and was really impressed with it, the Russians sure build a tough machine that will really lift. As to the video and the pilot. When these videos are made they are shot to give the maximum effect, the camera can and does exeragerate the actual distances involved. My comments regarding the video and the flying were to point out that like camera angles change the perception of what actually happened so also can the perception be instilled in new commers to gyro flying that these manouvers are the norm and are safe and legal. The problem can be that without a clear understanding of the dangers involved this kind of high risk flying is normal, which is not in fact the message that we should be giving to new commers to gyro flying. Russia is one country I have never flown in but would love to. Chuck E.

twistair

11-27-2003, 04:08 AM

Hi, Chuck, Mi-8MTV is probably the only Russian helo which worth to be proud of. As for the video, since my main current business is to involve newcomers to general aviation here, our team has some kind of strategy which includes that first you are to burn him interested to aviation - this video helps in this case, isn't it? But when the newcomer starts to learn flying - then it's time to make him (her etc.) sure that this game has it's own (and proven) rules which all include the word "safety". It's hard to make a person to accept these rules unless this person is learning to fly, but the experience shows that when one becomes a part of flying gang he easily accepts these rules - or - if we feel this person isn't adequate - we help him to find any other hobby. These are very rare anyway. Most of students become good pilots if only they have a good instructor. Luckily there are no "instructors" here who is simply accumulating hours to jump into airliner. Cheers, Alex

ToddP

11-27-2003, 04:36 AM

Alex, Since the dominators have been sold, what are you guys flying now?   I'm glad you've joined us here, welcome. Todd

Heron

11-27-2003, 12:11 PM

I asked because I wanted to produce Dominators in Brazil, but could not reach an agreement with Mr. Boyette. It made no sense to me just copy and have a nameless gyro or worst call it something like Whatevernator, it is not the real thing. It is a very fine gyroplane! It seems to me that you guys have a wonderful set up in your country and it is beginning to pay off, am I right? If one day I can have my american papers (the definitive ones) and can travel and visit Russia, right now it is all in stand by  ??? thanks Heron

twistair

11-30-2003, 09:13 PM

Thanks to all of you guys for your comments. I can tell that everybody of gyro gang is welcome to Moscow - I'll do all my best to make your visit pleasant and (grin) unforgettable. what are you guys flying now? Todd, we've built two tandems which are mostly copies of Dominator but we tried (I still wouldn't say "succeed") to make their life span longer than Ernie's aircraft which needs to fix it permanently after first 100 hours. Another attempt to upgrade it was to install the front ger leg which should allow to operate from rough strips. One ship is powered with 100 hp Rotax 912-ULS and another with 105 hp Subaru EA-82. This time I'm also building similar single-place aircraft powered by 80 hp Suabru-EA-71 And we have a 3-seater (the Hunter) here designed and built by Vic Shumeiko and his team. I asked because I wanted to produce Dominators in Brazil, but could not reach an agreement with Mr. Boyette I believe that it would be difficult after Ernie's fiasko with those Taiwanese guys :) Neil Hintz (spell?) from NZ probably could clear how he manages to built his gyros which differ significantly much from original Domin and to still call them Dominators ;) From the other side me personally don't see anything wrong using another name for the aircraft which is based on Dominator ideas. Dominator is very clever aircraft and I'm really admired by all the points of it's philosophy and design! The only real pain is that the original aircraft isn't built for long life. Cheers, Alex